Hebrews

johnd · Aug 9, 2009

The perpetual aspect of Torah Moshe is that whoever rejects Torah Moshiakh is judged by Torah Moshe.

Deuteronomy 18:15-19
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me (covenant maker / law giver) from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.
16 For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”
17 The LORD said to me: “What they say is good.
18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you (covenant maker / lawgiver) from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.
19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.

Tishri1 · Aug 9, 2009

johnd said:
But was not the first covenant originally intended to make klal Yisroel a kingdom of priests? And due to the incident in the wilderness, among other things (the people's remorse and telling Moses not to allow the Lord to speak directly to them for fear of dying) start the tribal priesthood?

Now we are a kingdom of priests. Who go boldly into the throne room, etc.

Indeed the priesthood was changed.... as part of the new covenant.

hey I forgot about this ....Awesomely brought forth John!

being that sooo much of the OT and Torah was based on the priesthood/Temple though, sooooo that change is HUGE and does in fact impact I would say 90%+ of the Torah and maybe lots of the actual Covenant....but I still think its basic design to draw us to Yeshua and give us a pattern to live by hasnt changed from its conception in the begining.

I just cant wait to see Him for the first time as our King /Priest in HIS Kingdom

David Ben Yosef · Aug 9, 2009

I think it would be important to note at this point in the discussion that the covenant blessings spoken of in Jeremiah 31, Ezekiel 11, and Isaiah 66 are for the twelve tribes of Israel after their redemption to the promised land. To retain any other interpretation would be to completely ignore much Scripture.

Also, it should be noted that the book of Hebrews was addressed to the Jews. One should be cautious to keep this in mind if you happen to be reading someone elses mail.

ContraMundum · Aug 9, 2009

Here's how I understand the issue of priesthood.

Both before and after the Cross the priesthood is threefold:

1- The people of God are a priesthood (Ex. 19:6, 1 Pet. 2:9)

2- Within the people of God there is a concecrated priestly ministry acting publically on behalf of the priesthood of the people of God (Levitical priesthood and ordained Christian ministry)

3- This concecrated priestly ministry operates under the High Priest (Aaron's or Jesus') High Priests have priests. The priesthood of God's people and those called to have public ministry are all under the High Priest.

So, my understanding is that the priesthood has changed but not priesthood itself per se- God's people are still a royal priesthood, with a High Priest, who has priests under Him. The way those priests operate their ministry is according to the Covenant of the High Priest. So, the New Covenant ministry operates differently to the old, because the Covenant is different. They still hear confession and make offerings to God as always, but no blood is shed. They still initiate people into the Covenant, but according to the New Covenant..etc. etc.

Tanakh · Aug 11, 2009

ContraMundum said:
There is a physical and spiritual element to both circumcision and baptism, I would say.

True, circumcision is both physical and spiritual, that I agree, but the seperation of circumcision and baptism is more or less on account of which covenant one follows and it would seem to me that Christianity has always wanted Jews to accept Jesus as savior and so this would obviously mean giving up the rite of circumcision to baptism and so we Jews would cease to be a "a light unto the nations" if we gave up our heritage so as to be just like everyone else. We are the chosen people (Deuteronomy 14:2) and we therefore cannot become like the world. This must be a clear seperation between the Jew and the goy and if the Jewish community were to accept willingly or by force the baptismal rite then by default we would be disobeying G-d and His law.

anisavta · Aug 11, 2009

David Ben Yosef said:
I think it would be important to note at this point in the discussion that the covenant blessings spoken of in Jeremiah 31, Ezekiel 11, and Isaiah 66 are for the twelve tribes of Israel after their redemption to the promised land. To retain any other interpretation would be to completely ignore much Scripture.

Also, it should be noted that the book of Hebrews was addressed to the Jews. One should be cautious to keep this in mind if you happen to be reading someone elses mail.

I would tend to agree with this.
Although the grafted in are given full rights and priviledges to the Kingdom of G~d through Yeshua, there are still requirements, responsibilities and priviledges given exclusivly to the Chosen of G~d, namely the Jews. The covenant made with the House of Israel is just for the House of Israel.
And HaShem will fulfill this covenant with the Jewish nation and restore His Priests to their rightful place.

ContraMundum · Aug 11, 2009

Tanakh said:
True, circumcision is both physical and spiritual, that I agree, but the seperation of circumcision and baptism is more or less on account of which covenant one follows and it would seem to me that Christianity has always wanted Jews to accept Jesus as savior and so this would obviously mean giving up the rite of circumcision to baptism and so we Jews would cease to be a "a light unto the nations" if we gave up our heritage so as to be just like everyone else. We are the chosen people (Deuteronomy 14:2) and we therefore cannot become like the world. This must be a clear seperation between the Jew and the goy and if the Jewish community were to accept willingly or by force the baptismal rite then by default we would be disobeying G-d and His law.

Actually, it is fine for a Christian to be circumcised. There is an example in the book of Acts where Paul circumcised Timothy- who had a Jewish mother. This is the same Paul that urged the Gentiles in Galatia not to be circumsiced. What that means is that Jews are still have the sign of circumcision in the Christian Faith. However, that sign does not grant automatically to them sainthood. This is the point. In Christianity, one must have faith first and lead a new and holy life to become a tzaddik. To me, this makes the continuity with Judaism all the more obvious, as Jews don't circumcise Gentiles but believe that they can be righteous before God nonetheless. The first Christians believed the same and so do I. They understood that outward signs alone do not make one righteous.

And for the record- the Jewish Messiah's religion (you call it Christianity) proves that salvation is from the Jews and that Am Yisrael brings light to the nations. There is no other contender for that title.

visionary · Aug 12, 2009

Tanakh said:
True, circumcision is both physical and spiritual, that I agree, but the seperation of circumcision and baptism is more or less on account of which covenant one follows and it would seem to me that Christianity has always wanted Jews to accept Jesus as savior and so this would obviously mean giving up the rite of circumcision to baptism and so we Jews would cease to be a "a light unto the nations" if we gave up our heritage so as to be just like everyone else. We are the chosen people (Deuteronomy 14:2) and we therefore cannot become like the world. This must be a clear seperation between the Jew and the goy and if the Jewish community were to accept willingly or by force the baptismal rite then by default we would be disobeying G-d and His law.

Who ever asks you or tells you that you must replace one with the other is a fool. Mikvah often and for various spiritual reasons. It does not change your circumcision covenant. In Yeshua's day, there was a call to repentence with a mikvah. Later Yeshua asked His Disciples to mikvah all to the "new understanding regarding Him" [aka gospel messaage] convictions. As far as mikvahs being a disobedience to God and His law,,, you will have to explain that to me... I do not see it.

Tanakh · Aug 12, 2009

ContraMundum said:
Actually, it is fine for a Christian to be circumcised. There is an example in the book of Acts where Paul circumcised Timothy- who had a Jewish mother. This is the same Paul that urged the Gentiles in Galatia not to be circumsiced. What that means is that Jews are still have the sign of circumcision in the Christian Faith. However, that sign does not grant automatically to them sainthood. This is the point. In Christianity, one must have faith first and lead a new and holy life to become a tzaddik. To me, this makes the continuity with Judaism all the more obvious, as Jews don't circumcise Gentiles but believe that they can be righteous before God nonetheless. The first Christians believed the same and so do I. They understood that outward signs alone do not make one righteous.

And for the record- the Jewish Messiah's religion (you call it Christianity) proves that salvation is from the Jews and that Am Yisrael brings light to the nations. There is no other contender for that title.

"For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead." - James 2:26

This verse seems to me to say that simply believing is not enough but one must still act according to the law. In other words a Christian must not simply say, "I have faith in Jesus Christ as my lord and savior" but then act a completely different way when confronted with the realities of life. Simply going to church and saying a few prayers and then believing that because you were a "good" Christian and went to church that you will automatically go to heaven because of it. The verse says that you must not only believe but live that belief, take action from the law, the "red letters".

At least that is how I am reading it.

In this light, baptism is a sign of belief and an act of belief, correct? And if so does this not go in accordince with what James was saying about "works in faith" and what else would constitute such a command?

ContraMundum · Aug 13, 2009

Tanakh said:
"For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead." - James 2:26

This verse seems to me to say that simply believing is not enough but one must still act according to the law. In other words a Christian must not simply say, "I have faith in Jesus Christ as my lord and savior" but then act a completely different way when confronted with the realities of life. Simply going to church and saying a few prayers and then believing that because you were a "good" Christian and went to church that you will automatically go to heaven because of it. The verse says that you must not only believe but live that belief, take action from the law, the "red letters".

At least that is how I am reading it.

You are correct.

In this light, baptism is a sign of belief and an act of belief, correct?

Yes, just as circumcision is ultimately.

And if so does this not go in accordince with what James was saying about "works in faith" and what else would constitute such a command?

Indeed- a person who rejected baptism or the other Christian sacraments deliberately (not out of ignorance) would not have much evidence of faith. The Laws given by the Messiah are actually very much centred around works of charity, love for neighbour, and following the law in love. Often they seem quite difficult to aply to one's life but with God's help it is possible. So, I guess what I am saying (if I understand yuor question properly), is that following the Law of Messiah is the result of faith, not vice versa. Simply doing the laws will do no one any good unless done in faith and most of all love. A true faith will result in charity towards one's neighbour, but charity towards one's neighbour outside of faith may not result in faith. If this were a train, faith would be the engine, and the cars would be the works.

I'm not sure if that is what you were asking but I hope this helps.

Tanakh · Aug 14, 2009

ContraMundum said:
You are correct.

Yes, just as circumcision is ultimately.

Indeed- a person who rejected baptism or the other Christian sacraments deliberately (not out of ignorance) would not have much evidence of faith. The Laws given by the Messiah are actually very much centred around works of charity, love for neighbour, and following the law in love. Often they seem quite difficult to aply to one's life but with God's help it is possible. So, I guess what I am saying (if I understand yuor question properly), is that following the Law of Messiah is the result of faith, not vice versa. Simply doing the laws will do no one any good unless done in faith and most of all love. A true faith will result in charity towards one's neighbour, but charity towards one's neighbour outside of faith may not result in faith. If this were a train, faith would be the engine, and the cars would be the works.

I'm not sure if that is what you were asking but I hope this helps.

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old recieved their commendation. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of G-d, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible." - Hebrews 11:1-3

This verse (which I believe I have posted before) is very interesting because in this regard Christianity and Judaism share common ground in that in the context of this verse we both are aware of the divine in history, through our actions in life, and so we both acknowledge that in order for G-d's laws to be carried out we must live faith. Faith is a verb.

For Christians you see Jesus as an act of G-d in history and for us Jews the commandments are G-d's actions in history and many see G-d as history itself.

ContraMundum · Aug 14, 2009

Tanakh said:
"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old recieved their commendation. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of G-d, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible." - Hebrews 11:1-3

This verse (which I believe I have posted before) is very interesting because in this regard Christianity and Judaism share common ground in that in the context of this verse we both are aware of the divine in history, through our actions in life, and so we both acknowledge that in order for G-d's laws to be carried out we must live faith. Faith is a verb.

For Christians you see Jesus as an act of G-d in history and for us Jews the commandments are G-d's actions in history and many see G-d as history itself.

Yes- I think we agree on all levels on this one.

Tanakh · Aug 16, 2009

ContraMundum said:
Yes- I think we agree on all levels on this one.

Then I believe it is safe to say that this thread has been somewhat productive afterall.

ContraMundum · Aug 16, 2009

Tanakh said:
Then I believe it is safe to say that this thread has been somewhat productive afterall.

I guess the bottom line is that Christianity is borne from Judaism and both religions teach that the role of a follower of God is to bring His light and love to the world- tikkun olam.

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