Hebrews 9:2-5

[food4thought]

For a tabernacle was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary; and behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All, which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron's rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant; and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.
(Hebrews 9:2-5)

The problem: the passage, in the KJV, YLT, and NKJV, omits mention of the altar of incense in the sanctuary, and places the golden incense censer in the most holy place contrary to what the OT passages indicate. Most modern translations compound the problem by translating the Greek thumiatērion as the altar of incense instead of the golden incense censer.

The common solution 1: to say that the censer was left inside the most holy place.

Problem with solution 1: it says nothing about the glaring omission of the incense altar from the sanctuary, and there is no reason to believe that the censer was ever left inside the most holy place according to the OT law.

Common solution 2: to say that the incense altar "belonged" to the most holy place even though it was not located there.

Problem with solution 2: the incense altar was used most frequently only as an offering for incense daily by the Levite priests. It was only used once a year, on the Day of Atonement, as the source for the incense that the censer brought into the most holy place.

My proposed solution: the correct translation is censer, not altar. Thumiatērion is the word used for the golden incense censer in the Septuagint translation, and another Greek word was used for the incense altar. The censer does "belong" to the most holy place, since it was only used once a year on the Day of Atonement. The reason the incense altar itself is not mentioned in the discussion of the sanctuary is most likely because it was omitted from the passage due to an early copying error. The fact that it was never corrected says a lot about the aversion of the monks from adding to or subtracting from the Scriptures they were copying.

Any thoughts, ideas, or corrections?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I think that the golden incense burner is now at the throne? Could be wrong but it's believed to contain the prayers of the saints.

 

[mark kennedy]

For a tabernacle was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary; and behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All, which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron's rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant; and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.
(Hebrews 9:2-5)

The problem: the passage, in the KJV, YLT, and NKJV, omits mention of the altar of incense in the sanctuary, and places the golden incense censer in the most holy place contrary to what the OT passages indicate. Most modern translations compound the problem by translating the Greek thumiatērion as the altar of incense instead of the golden incense censer.

The common solution 1: to say that the censer was left inside the most holy place.

Problem with solution 1: it says nothing about the glaring omission of the incense altar from the sanctuary, and there is no reason to believe that the censer was ever left inside the most holy place according to the OT law.

Common solution 2: to say that the incense altar "belonged" to the most holy place even though it was not located there.

Problem with solution 2: the incense altar was used most frequently only as an offering for incense daily by the Levite priests. It was only used once a year, on the Day of Atonement, as the source for the incense that the censer brought into the most holy place.

My proposed solution: the correct translation is censer, not altar. Thumiatērion is the word used for the golden incense censer in the Septuagint translation, and another Greek word was used for the incense altar. The censer does "belong" to the most holy place, since it was only used once a year on the Day of Atonement. The reason the incense altar itself is not mentioned in the discussion of the sanctuary is most likely because it was omitted from the passage due to an early copying error. The fact that it was never corrected says a lot about the aversion of the monks from adding to or subtracting from the Scriptures they were copying.

Any thoughts, ideas, or corrections?

I found this note in a discussion of this issue:

The text literally reads: “behind the second veil was a room which is called the holy of holies, having [echousa, present participle] a golden altar of incense.” The verb echo can be employed in the sense of “belonging to,” i.e., in close “association with” something (cf. Hebrews 6:9). (The Altar of Incense: Where Was It Located?)
​

The King James even translates it, 'Which had the golden censer', (Heb. 9:4). I think it's pretty reasonable that this is a reference to a censer 'belonging to' the alter of incense.

​

 

[food4thought]

I think that the golden incense burner is now at the throne? Could be wrong but it's believed to contain the prayers of the saints.

Hebrews indicates that there was an earthly temple/sanctuary and a heavenly one, and that the earthly one is a copy of the heavenly one. Revelation 8:3-4 mentions the heavenly golden censer with regard to offering incense with the prayers of the saints, so in that you are right that the incense is a type of the prayers of the saints.

 

[food4thought]

I found this note in a discussion of this issue:

The text literally reads: “behind the second veil was a room which is called the holy of holies, having [echousa, present participle] a golden altar of incense.” The verb echo can be employed in the sense of “belonging to,” i.e., in close “association with” something (cf. Hebrews 6:9). (The Altar of Incense: Where Was It Located?)
​

The King James even translates it, 'Which had the golden censer', (Heb. 9:4). I think it's pretty reasonable that this is a reference to a censer 'belonging to' the alter of incense.

​

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say here... sure the golden censer "belongs" to the incense altar, just as the censer "belongs" to the most holy place. Are you trying to say that the incense altar therefore "belongs" to the most holy place, not the sanctuary?

 

[mark kennedy]

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say here... sure the golden censer "belongs" to the incense altar, just as the censer "belongs" to the most holy place. Are you trying to say that the incense altar therefore "belongs" to the most holy place, not the sanctuary?

I'm saying that the alter of incense wasn't in the Holy of Holies, the passage isn't saying the alter of incense in the Holy of Holies. It's saying the censer from the alter of incense. Part of the problem is I don't really see the problem, or why there are multiple solutions for this. It seems pretty obvious to me.

 

[food4thought]

I'm saying that the alter of incense wasn't in the Holy of Holies, the passage isn't saying the alter of incense in the Holy of Holies. It's saying the censer from the alter of incense. Part of the problem is I don't really see the problem, or why there are multiple solutions for this. It seems pretty obvious to me.

I see the problem as twofold:
1) If you accept the NKJV translation of the word thumiatērion as the censer, then why is there no mention of the incense altar in the sanctuary?
2) If you accept the other modern translations of thumiatērion as the incense altar, then why does the text place it in the most holy place instead of the sanctuary?

Hope this helps clarify the problem I am trying to resolve.

 

[mark kennedy]

I see the problem as twofold:
1) If you accept the NKJV translation of the word thumiatērion as the censer, then why is there no mention of the incense altar in the sanctuary?
2) If you accept the other modern translations of thumiatērion as the incense altar, then why does the text place it in the most holy place instead of the sanctuary?

Hope this helps clarify the problem I am trying to resolve.

Well this is kind of typical of how the items in the Temple are discussed in the New Testament. When it refers to the Lampstand it uses the normal word for a lamp. There is only one occurrence of it in the New Testament and it can mean either alter of incense or censer, according to Thayer's

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

θυμιατήριον, θυμιατηριου, τό (θυμιάω), properly, a utensil for fumigating or burning incense (cf. Winer's Grammar, 96 (91)); hence:

1. a censer: 2 Chronicles 26:19; Ezekiel 8:11; Herodotus 4, 162; Thucydides 6, 46; Diodorus 13, 3; Josephus, Antiquities 4, 2, 4; 8, 3, 8; Aelian v. h. 12, 51.

2. the altar of incense: Philo, rer. div. haer. § 46; vit. Moys. iii. § 7; Josephus, Antiquities 3, 6, 8; 3, 8, 3; b. j. 5, 5, 5; Clement of Alexandria; Origen; and so in Hebrews 9:4 ((where Tr marginal reading brackets), also 2 Tr marginal reading in brackets), where see Bleek, Lünemann, Delitzsch, Kurtz, in opposed to those ((A. V. included)) who think it means censer; (yet cf. Harnack in the Studien und Kritiken for 1876, p. 572f). STRONGS NT 2369: θυμιατήριον
​

And the more abbreviated version saying the same thing in Strong's:

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

an altar of incense, a censer
From a derivative of thumiao; a place of fumigation, i.e. The alter of incense (in the Temple) -- censer.​

see GREEK thumiao
​

In Greek context is king, especially in words that are not used very much. The King James got it right and the modern translations got it wrong. Why I don't know.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Lulav]

You might want to look at this

Golden Censer in the Most Holy Place vs. The Censer that the Priests carried when they entered...

 

[mark kennedy]

You might want to look at this

Golden Censer in the Most Holy Place vs. The Censer that the Priests carried when they entered...

Same basic thing, it's the Day of Atonement so the censor is in the Holy of Holies.

 

[food4thought]

Well this is kind of typical of how the items in the Temple are discussed in the New Testament. When it refers to the Lampstand it uses the normal word for a lamp. There is only one occurrence of it in the New Testament and it can mean either alter of incense or censer, according to Thayer's

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

θυμιατήριον, θυμιατηριου, τό (θυμιάω), properly, a utensil for fumigating or burning incense (cf. Winer's Grammar, 96 (91)); hence:

1. a censer: 2 Chronicles 26:19; Ezekiel 8:11; Herodotus 4, 162; Thucydides 6, 46; Diodorus 13, 3; Josephus, Antiquities 4, 2, 4; 8, 3, 8; Aelian v. h. 12, 51.

2. the altar of incense: Philo, rer. div. haer. § 46; vit. Moys. iii. § 7; Josephus, Antiquities 3, 6, 8; 3, 8, 3; b. j. 5, 5, 5; Clement of Alexandria; Origen; and so in Hebrews 9:4 ((where Tr marginal reading brackets), also 2 Tr marginal reading in brackets), where see Bleek, Lünemann, Delitzsch, Kurtz, in opposed to those ((A. V. included)) who think it means censer; (yet cf. Harnack in the Studien und Kritiken for 1876, p. 572f). STRONGS NT 2369: θυμιατήριον
​

And the more abbreviated version saying the same thing in Strong's:

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

an altar of incense, a censer
From a derivative of thumiao; a place of fumigation, i.e. The alter of incense (in the Temple) -- censer.​

see GREEK thumiao
​

In Greek context is king, especially in words that are not used very much. The King James got it right and the modern translations got it wrong. Why I don't know.

Grace and peace,
Mark

If you look at my OP, you'll see that I wholeheartedly agree with you that the correct translation is "censer", not "altar".

But that leaves the problem of why the incense altar is not mentioned in the description of the sanctuary, which is why I propose that there was an early copyist error that omitted mention of the incense altar in verse 2.

 

[food4thought]

You might want to look at this

Golden Censer in the Most Holy Place vs. The Censer that the Priests carried when they entered...

Thanks for the link, Lulav. The link agrees with me and Mark about the translation of the Greek word as censer, not altar, but again fails to address why the altar of incense is not mentioned, which is why I propose that there was an early copyist error that omitted mention of the altar in verse 2.

 

[mark kennedy]

If you look at my OP, you'll see that I wholeheartedly agree with you that the correct translation is "censer", not "altar".

But that leaves the problem of why the incense altar is not mentioned in the description of the sanctuary, which is why I propose that there was an early copyist error that omitted mention of the incense altar in verse 2.

I don't think so, I just don't think the author was emphasizing anything about it. He is describing the sacrifice of Christ using imagery from the Levitical sacrificial system. He is emphasizing the Day of Atonement, all that really matters about the incense in that context is that the High Priest takes it into the Holy of Holies with him.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Hebrews indicates that there was an earthly temple/sanctuary and a heavenly one, and that the earthly one is a copy of the heavenly one. Revelation 8:3-4 mentions the heavenly golden censer with regard to offering incense with the prayers of the saints, so in that you are right that the incense is a type of the prayers of the saints.

Revelation 5:8
And when He took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each having a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which bowls are the prayers of the saints.

Revelation 8:3-5
And another Angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer, and much incense was given to Him to offer with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
And the smoke of the incense went up with the prayers of the saints out of the hand of the Angel before God.

Christ could be the much incense added to the prayers of the saints.

 

[mark kennedy]

Revelation 5:8
And when He took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each having a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which bowls are the prayers of the saints.

Revelation 8:3-5
And another Angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer, and much incense was given to Him to offer with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
And the smoke of the incense went up with the prayers of the saints out of the hand of the Angel before God.

Christ could be the much incense added to the prayers of the saints.

What is interesting here is that the censer is the prayers of the saints, prayers that no doubt would include prayers for justice and mercy. Just as the prayer of the martyrs at the opening of the fifth seal was a prelude to the wrath of the Lamb at the opening of the sixth seal. The prayers of the saints are brought before God and the response is terrible wrath coming on a world that has gone complete mad. With the sixth seal they are cowering in caves and dens of the rocks, by the time of the opening of the seventh seal the Antichrist had convinced them they can survive God's judgment. Speeches I suspect are a lot like this one:

The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the Lord and against his anointed, saying,
“Let us break their chains
and throw off their shackles.”
The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord scoffs at them.
He rebukes them in his anger
and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
“I have installed my king
on Zion, my holy mountain.” (Psalm 2:2-6)
​

The 6 Trumpet blasts strike: 1/3 of the earth with fire (T-1), 1/3 of the sea turned to blood (T2), 1/3 of the waters made bitter (T3), 1/3 of the heavens struck (T-4). Then a demonic host from the abyss is released (T-5), finally preparation for the final battle, the Euphrates stomp dry (Rev. 8:6-9:21).

With the opening of the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 11:15-19), the kingdoms of earth have become the kingdom of God. This is where the part in the Lord's Prayer, 'thy kingdom come', is finally fully realized. Even then the armies of the Antichrist are convinced they can win, even after the vials of wrath are poured out they are still standing.

That censor, that represents the prayers of the saints, is cast to the earth:

Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake. (Rev. 8:5)
​

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Lulav]

Thanks for the link, Lulav. The link agrees with me and Mark about the translation of the Greek word as censer, not altar, but again fails to address why the altar of incense is not mentioned, which is why I propose that there was an early copyist error that omitted mention of the altar in verse 2.

Or the person writing Hebrews was not a priest or had not studied the Torah well. It also could be from the translation used as in the Septuagint. Have you looked into that possibility?


This picture shows that the censer was located with the altar of incense.

The Altar of incense was located right before the veil that separated the Holy of Holies from the Holy place. The censer would only be in the Holy of Holies when the High Priest entered with it on Yom Kippurim.


The Tabernacle on earth was fashioned after the one in Heaven.

The Ark of the Covenant represents Gods Throne

In Revelation 8 we read:

3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God’s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand. 5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

This validates that the altar of incenses was in front of the Ark in the tabernacle with just the veil separating them.

 

[food4thought]

I don't think so, I just don't think the author was emphasizing anything about it. He is describing the sacrifice of Christ using imagery from the Levitical sacrificial system. He is emphasizing the Day of Atonement, all that really matters about the incense in that context is that the High Priest takes it into the Holy of Holies with him.

You don't find it exceedingly strange that the author would mention the showbread and the lampstand, but not the incense altar?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

What is interesting here is that the censer is the prayers of the saints, prayers that no doubt would include prayers for justice and mercy. Just as the prayer of the martyrs at the opening of the fifth seal was a prelude to the wrath of the Lamb at the opening of the sixth seal. The prayers of the saints are brought before God and the response is terrible wrath coming on a world that has gone complete mad. With the sixth seal they are cowering in caves and dens of the rocks, by the time of the opening of the seventh seal the Antichrist had convinced them they can survive God's judgment. Speeches I suspect are a lot like this one:

The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the Lord and against his anointed, saying,
“Let us break their chains
and throw off their shackles.”
The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord scoffs at them.
He rebukes them in his anger
and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
“I have installed my king
on Zion, my holy mountain.” (Psalm 2:2-6)
​

The 6 Trumpet blasts strike: 1/3 of the earth with fire (T-1), 1/3 of the sea turned to blood (T2), 1/3 of the waters made bitter (T3), 1/3 of the heavens struck (T-4). Then a demonic host from the abyss is released (T-5), finally preparation for the final battle, the Euphrates stomp dry (Rev. 8:6-9:21).

With the opening of the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 11:15-19), the kingdoms of earth have become the kingdom of God. This is where the part in the Lord's Prayer, 'thy kingdom come', is finally fully realized. Even then the armies of the Antichrist are convinced they can win, even after the vials of wrath are poured out they are still standing.

That censor, that represents the prayers of the saints, is cast to the earth:

Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake. (Rev. 8:5)
​

Grace and peace,
Mark

It was customary for worshippers to be in prayer when the incense was offered by the priest ( Luke 1:10 ) so it seems reasonable to suppose that it was at that time symbolic of the prayers of saints. The censor being filled with fire and cast upon the earth could only be God's judgment no doubt because such things as Psalms 2 (love that psalms) and in answer to the saint's prayers especially to the prayers mentioned in Revelation 6:9-11 and Luke 18:7-8. I guess we can only add to the saintly prayers for 'thy kingdom come' asking with the Spirit for His soon return!

 

[food4thought]

Or the person writing Hebrews was not a priest or had not studied the Torah well.

The author might not have been a priest, but a lack of OT knowledge is not likely given the in depth OT studies he does elsewhere in Hebrews.

It also could be from the translation used as in the Septuagint. Have you looked into that possibility?

No I have not... thank you for the suggestion Lulav.

 

[mark kennedy]

You don't find it exceedingly strange that the author would mention the showbread and the lampstand, but not the incense altar?

Now, the focus is on the inner chambers, the Holy Place and the day of atonement

You don't find it exceedingly strange that the author would mention the showbread and the lampstand, but not the incense altar?

Not at all, that passage is discussing the Day of Atonement, all the was really relevant was the censor.

The author might not have been a priest, but a lack of OT knowledge is not likely given the in depth OT studies he does elsewhere in Hebrews.

I always thought it was Barnabas, he was a Levite. His close associating with Paul could account for the book being profoundly Hebrew and at the same time, distinctly Pauline. It could also account for why the church went to such pains to preserve it. I also think it could account for why he didn't include his name, a Levite wouldn't do that. It's also a lesson on the Law, a role prescribed for the Levitical priesthood.