Hebrews 6 and Salvation

[Jephunneh]

How could someone who does not know for sure if they are a saved, born again child of God, know anything about Salvation?




It's called the doctrine of Eternal Security. It comes from the Christians final authority, The Holy Bible, and not any "church" or "religion."


A new Christian needs to look out for any fellow who thinks you can lose it by taking verses directed at the Jew in the Tribulation or Millennium
and trying to fit them into the church age.

 

[endure]

Jephunneh
it is not a rest.
you cannot simply lay back and say rest in the fact that your saved, its not "no worries" as crocidile dundy said.

becuase paul says that he received grace, but he laboured greatly, and becuase he laboured the grace wasnt in vain.
1 cor 15.10
explain that.

paul was as saved as anyone, this is not debatable.
yet in 1 cor 9.27 he said that he himself could become a CASTAWAY. which means "reprobate, rejected, castaway"
explain that.

yes hebrews 6 teaches that can one lose his salvation.
it does not teach that if it is lost that one may never get it back.
it does teach that it is possible to lose it in such away that one cannot be brought back to it.
becuase any manner of sin will destroy your salvation becuase to whom you yield your body to obey, that is your master despite grace.
romans 6.15-16
yet this is not the same thing as what is told of in hebrews 6.
you say this cant be true becuase if it is it means a person who sins at all cant come back to God, but it wouldnt mean that becuase it doesnt refer to anyones ability to come back to anything.
it refers to a persons ability to bring someone back.
it says IT IS IMPOSSIBLE...TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE...
the words given are "renew them" it is refering our ability to RENEW THEM...
not their ability to come back to God but a persons ability to bring them back.
how can you say a person is not saved if they have tasted the heavonly gift? and how can you say a person is not saved if they have partook of the holyspirit?
and even worked in the holyspirit?
i cant find the verse im looking for in romans that proves our salvation is not fully finished right now that we do not have fullness of the heavonly gift yet, not untill heavon.
but the proof that these people worked in the power of God proves these people were atleast saved. for what heathen can work in the power of God?

a person who has been saved, knew God, worked in the power of God, and yet fully casts God down, these kind of people you cant bring back because in order for them to leave in first place they must have already come to the point of no longer caring, these people cant be brought back.
it does not mean that at any time mercy and grace is not available and that God isnt willing to save. 
i agree with the psalmist that says his mercy is from everlasting to everlasting. there is nothing you can do change that, i dont beleive there is any place you can reach, or any era you can enter that Gods mercy isnt present and willing to save you.
but what hebrews speaks of is a persons unwillingness to be renewed to repentance.
but since some people think hebrews 6 refers to the tribulation, which truely baffles me why anyone would think that, ill use some other scripture references.

if salvation cannot be lost,
1. then judas iscariot is in heavon at the moment, becuase his name was written in heavon before he died. luke 19.20
do you agree that he is? just wondering.

2. then paul was not correct in stating 1 cor 3.17
he said that if you defiled the temple of God, that God would destroy you.
this does not apply to sinners becuase he stated the terms of being a temple of God was the spirit dwelling in you.
this proves one can lose their salvation or be destroyed, even after salvation.

3. then paul was not correct in stating romans 6.15-16
which says even despite grace in your life (salvation) if you serve sin then you make sin your master unto death.
will any one of you who know your saved yet beleive you cant lose it, dare to stand up and say you have never and can never serve sin again?
becuase i know that our ability to sin is never done away with, and i know you have sinned since you got saved. well i know by specail knowledge but by common sense.
these facts, along with the truth of romans 6.15-16 make eternal security impossible, or the scripture a lie.

4. then paul and jesus and many others stated many things meaninglessly.
in 1 tim 4.16 paul tells timothy to take great heed to himself and unto his doctrine and to continue in this, and by this he would save himself.
will anyone of you try to prove timothy was not already saved? a man who paul trusted in leading a church.
why would paul speak to timothy of saving himself if he agreed with you on your opinion of eternal security. he obviosly thought there was a chance that timothy might not be saved. or else he would not have told him how to save himself, even though he was already as saved as anyone of you.

jesus told us to ABIDE in him.
if jesus believed that a person could not lose salvation, why did he tell them they needed to take specail care to abide in him?
and the effect of not abiding in him was not anything other than being cast into the fire, damnation.

paul stated that we must be a holy people, and without holiness no man can see the lord. heb 12.14
why would he state such things to beleivers if he knew we would see God anyway?

 

[endure]

Jephunneh
please, explain to me why heb 6 must apply to the tribulation.
i tried to follow your first explanation but i only got more confused. i really couldnt even tell what you meant by some of your later evidences.

please explain whatever it is you mean about acts 1-7,and running something past the church age, etc.
in a clearer way, please prove to me that heb 6. must refer to the tribulation.
does all of hebrews refer to the tribulation?
i dont think so because he gave atleast one example of people already having done what he was telling the hebrews not to do.
proving that you cannot make his statements only appliable to future people. heb 10.25

 

[mellymell]

Originally posted by eldermike
If you believe Heb 6 supports that you can lose salvation then how could you reject that you can't get it back? If you beleive this none are saved. It's actually pretty simple.

Please hear my heart in this post because I'm going to do away with tact for just a moment and try to make my point as clear as it can be. It really bothers me to see how we take plain scriptures and try to add to or take away from their clarity in order to prove our points. Now, there is absolutely nothing in these verses that causes us to think that the author is referring to the Tribulation period. Let's let the scriptures speak for themselves. This comment, altough used in conjunction with a quote from eldermike, is not intended directly for him, but for everyone to whom it may apply.

Here's my problem. I've seen throughout my time with these forums that EXCELLENT and undisprovable points have been made and rather than reply with a knowledgeable rebuttal or with a statement admitting they were wrong, the people either don't reply at all or say, "You're taking that out of context." Many scriptures are universally applicable, and have no context which limits its application. Further, isn't it at the very least POSSIBLE that you could be wrong in your belief? But from posts I've read here, nobody acknowledges that they're wrong, they just end the discussion or change the subject. I'm sure you all have seen this too. But, I've found in my time in ministry that the worst teacher is one who is unteachable. We've got to open our minds and realize that we don't have a monopoly on revelation. We too can be wrong and need to change our ideas about some things in scripture.

Now, back to the issue at hand... Hebrews 6:4-6 clearly speaks of people who HAVE BEEN ENLIGHTENED, they have TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT (oh taste and see that the Lord is good-well, they tasted and concluded that He wasn't good enough), they've BEEN PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, they've TASTED OF THE GOOD WORD AND THE POWERS OF THE AGE TO COME (they had experienced the supernatural power of God, which at present is only a foretaste of what's to come)... These were sho'nuff believers, but yet they FELL AWAY.

Now, let's define "fall away". You don't fall away by committing a sin. We aren't saved by works and so bad works can't take that salvation away. We are saved by GRACE THROUGH FAITH and so in order to fall away, somethingi n that equation must be missing. Well, Eph. 1:13-14 makes it clear that God isn't going to reneg on His promise toward us. He's SEALED us with the Holy Spirit and so the "GRACE" part is staying. But, that grace is only activated THROUGH OUR FAITH. If we no longer believe, we give nothing for that grace to work through.

These people described in Hebrews 6:4-6 ceased to believe, ceased to have faith in God, hence they FELL AWAY. That's why it's impossible to renew them to repentance. The author says that they "crucify again for themselves the Son of God..." HOW HORRIBLE. Apparently, for them, the first crucifixion wasn't enough to give them continual faith in God. They believed more in their own opinions than in the truth THAT THEY'VE ALREADY BEEN A PARTAKER OF. So, it would "practically" take another crucifixion to bring them back into the fold; they've already considered the first shed blood as a common thing. But, we know from Hebrews 9:29 that Christ died ONCE for ALL and He ain't dying again, so if the first death wasn't good enough for saving faith to continue, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE.

It didn't take works to get us saved, but it DID take faith, and without it, you can't be saved. They lost it, and so it's impossible for them to be renewed. That's the BIBLE, that's the SCRIPTURE, and that's the end of this post.

 

[eldermike]

Mellymel,

Welcome to the forum! This is a lively place for sure. We do not all hold the same views but we try our best to act like brothers and sisters in Christ. I hope you have found that true.

The Tribulation argument wasn't mine. I don't hold your interpretation of this scripture to me falling away can't be in context to salvation, it falls apart because of two issues, firsts He says you can't get it back, second He says they came from an infertile field. So, they never had it.

We know that if you add salvation to falling away then you would have to add it to you can't get it back. That would make a bunch of other scripture a problem. The infertile fields is another clue to the context.

You mentioned that faith was required, that is very true but you mentioned as if you believe we can somehow gain it ourselves. The bible teaches me that faith is a gift from God. Do you see faith differently?





EPH 6:23 Peace to the brothers, and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ

2PE 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

 

[eldermike]

When you go to basic training you intend to become a marine. After a week some have fallen away, two weeks a few more. Six weeks and you have a few marines, they are given the proof to show the world, they are marines.

We take people to church, in a week some have fallen away, in a month or so one or two of them confess Jesus as Lord.

Paul says to us. Why do you keep bringing those people back here? They fell away knowing how the Holy Spirit guides your lives, knowing How dear you hold this faith in your heart. They come from infertile fields. Do not despair, keep up the battle, more fields are prepared for you.

HEB 6:9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case--things that accompany salvation. 10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

HEB 6:13 When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself, 14 saying, "I will surely bless you and give you many descendants." 15 And so after waiting patiently, Abraham received what was promised.

 

[eldermike]

Mellymel,

Hebrews 6 is not about our Salvation, we have Salvation. It's about burning out seeing those that never recieve it. As a Pastor you will see much of this.

Blessings to you

 

[mellymell]

Originally posted by eldermike
Welcome to the forum! This is a lively place for sure. We do not all hold the same views but we try our best to act like brothers and sisters in Christ. I hope you have found that true.

I've definitely found this to be true. Although I expressed my deep concern in my previous post, I in no way intended to convey an idea that I don't appreciate these forums and feel the brotherly love permeating its discussions.

I don't hold your interpretation of this scripture to me falling away can't be in context to salvation, it falls apart because of two issues, firsts He says you can't get it back, second He says they came from an infertile field. So, they never had it.

But, what you're saying is self-contradictory. If you admit that he says you "can't get it BACK", how can you go on an say that they never "had" it? You can't get something BACK that you've never had, so the point that the author is making by saying that they can't get it back, it is implied that they once had it but since they LOST it they can't get it back. You can't be RENEWED to something that never lived, and he said that they can't be renewed "AGAIN" unto repentance. So, they definitely had it.

The question is: what is the "it". I do believe that "it" is salvation. Look at the descriptive phrases that are used. These people were enlightened, have tasted the HEAVENLY GIFT (gift of what??? church??? no, SALVATION), have become partkaers of the Holy Spirit (you can't partake of the Holy Spirit without being saved), and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come (these people experienced the "powers" of God, His supernatural ability)... There were surely saved, but yet they fell away, not just stopped attending church, not just stopped praying, not even BACKSLID, but they FELL AWAY.

We know that if you add salvation to falling away then you would have to add it to you can't get it back. That would make a bunch of other scripture a problem.

I do add salvation to both ends of the point, to losing it AND to getting it back. When you lose your salvation, you can't get it back... But, if you lose your salvation because of the loss of faith, it's not like you'd even WANT it back. (read my previous posts for more on this particular point)

You mentioned that faith was required, that is very true but you mentioned as if you believe we can somehow gain it ourselves. The bible teaches me that faith is a gift from God. Do you see faith differently?

I didn't mean to say such... I agree with you wholeheartedly that faith is a gift from God, for He deals to each a "measure of faith". However, that faith does come in because we choose to BELIEVE that which we hear. Faith coming from God doesn't mean that we have no part in the process. If we don't believe, we can't receive that faith from God. God doesn't make us have faith, but He empowers our belief to faith. I don't believe that faith and belief are the same thing, although many times, we use the two terms interchangeably. Belief is of man and is a decision to trust in something we've heard or considered. Faith is from God and comes upon our belief to empower that belief to a Godly end... Like faith to save, or faith to heal, or faith to deliver, or faith in God at all. Belief is natural, faith is supernatural. Hope that clarifes my position. But, even having said that, we can choose whether or not to have faith indirectly by choosing whether or not to believe. If we don't believe, we can have no faith, but if we believe, the faith that comes upon our belief comes from God.

God bless  

 

[eldermike]

Mellymel,

I ahe to go for now but quickly let me address your question about adding salvation to both ends of the point. I only did that to show why it can't be so, I know it dosn't belong there.

Your explnation adding it to both points is intresting but my Theology leads me to a different place and one that needs no explanation other than the context I gave you of the infertile fields.

Blessings to you

 

[Jephunneh]

Let's look again at the facts of Hebrews 6.

Originally posted by Jephunneh
It is DOCTRINE for the HEBREW during the TRIBULATION.

The Truth of Hebrews 6:1-6

1. The reader is a Hebrew.

2. The reader is a Hebrew who is saved.

3. The reader is a Hebrew who is in danger of losing salvation if he doesn't endure to the end.

4. Only by doing this can he become a partaker of Christ, even though he is already a partaker of the Holy Ghost.

5. The reader is a Hebrew who has 'tasted' the powers of a world to come that is characterized by apostolic signs and wonders (Acts 1-7 shifted past the church age): see Matthew 17:10-13.

6. The reader is a Hebrew who is in danger of drawing back into perdition as Jews who got into the promised land and apostasized after they got there (Judges 1,2,3) - all of the scholars forgot that application.

7. The reader is a Hebrew who can lose salvation and be unable to get it back.

8. When he does, a burning awaits him at the Second Advent for he will be judged as one of God's people (see Hebrews 10:26-33).

9. No matter how many temporary spiritual applications you may make to the immediate reader of Hebrews - when it was written before 60 A.D. - you can not rest DOCTRINALLY one time in the passage till you run it up past the church age. This proves that at least 12 chapters of the epistle were written before Acts 7.

 

[mellymell]

Okay, that post presented no new evidence to support your claim. Instead, why not reply to the various points made in any of the opposing claims?

 

[endure]

jephunna
i made it perfectly clear that i had already read that... and i asked you too expound on it...
if you respect me this little then...whatever.

or if you are simply posting another mans findings and theories and cannot expound on them yourself...thats not a good thing.

 

[eldermike]

do add salvation to both ends of the point, to losing it AND to getting it back. When you lose your salvation, you can't get it back... But, if you lose your salvation because of the loss of faith, it's not like you'd even WANT it back. (read my previous posts for more on this particular point)

Scripture please. I need to see scripture that pulls faith out as a reason to not be forgiven by God where you were forgiven but no longer forgiven nor ever will be.

Belief is natural, faith is supernatural

your words

If you believe this can you support your claim that our salvation is based upon our measure of faith?. Remember you said faith and belief are different things. Would this be the mean trick of all time to give me a measure of a supernatural gift and then tell me that I must somehow enhance it with my human power? I agree with you, faith is supernatural, not doubt, Paul praised God for our faith in ever one of His writings, He pounded this fact. One more question, Did Peter lose faith when walking on water? sure He did, is He lost? Are we boasting when we make claims of faith? Can we walk on water?

Blessings

 

[Jephunneh]

SALVATION TODAY is NOT the same as SALVATION IN THE TRIBULATION



Why not READ Hebrews 6 and and ask God to help you understand it, then read it a few more times.







Hebrews 6

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.

17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

 

[mellymell]

Originally posted by eldermike
Scripture please. I need to see scripture that pulls faith out as a reason to not be forgiven by God where you were forgiven but no longer forgiven nor ever will be.

Don't switch subjects on me. I'm very specific with what I refer to. I never said that a lack of faith causes one not to be forgiven by God. If you confess, God is faithful and just to forgive. I just take the Word at face value. So, don't distort my points.

If you believe this can you support your claim that our salvation is based upon our measure of faith?

Eph. 2:8 - "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" If you re-read my posts, this is EXACTLY what I've been saying.

Remember you said faith and belief are different things. Would this be the mean trick of all time to give me a measure of a supernatural gift and then tell me that I must somehow enhance it with my human power?

You're using these negatively connotated statements to cause other readers to immediately dispair with regard to my post, but all this is is a pot-shot in the dark. It isn't the mean trick of all time. You don't enhance the supernatural gift. THE SUPERNATURAL GIFT ENHANCES YOUR  HUMAN POWER TO BELIEVE. Re-read my posts and you'll see that this is exactly the point that I've made.

One more question, Did Peter lose faith when walking on water? sure He did, is He lost? Are we boasting when we make claims of faith? Can we walk on water?

 

Yes, Peter lost faith. The loss of faith was evidenced by Jesus' question, "O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?" Is He lost??? I don't understand your question. He didn't doubt Jesus' power to save, he doubted his ability to walk on water. You can't connect the two.

You asked, "are we boasting when we make claims of faith." It depends. I make my boast in the Lord, as Paul declared. Again, I don't fully understand your question. If you are like the Pharisee's, that your claims of faith are probably empty anyway... Can we walk on water? YES WE CAN. Have we??? I haven't. Have you?

 

[eldermike]

Mellymell,

I don't know what I said that caused you to become so defensive. I am sorry if I did say something wrong. Back to the subject: The text we are discussing says if a person falls away, they can't come back. You intend that this is talkng about a saved person. I contend that it's a lost person.
My objection is simple. To say a saved person can't regain salvation is not a doctrine of one single Christian denomination, not one. So, let's clear this up. Can you use the falling away part and then reject the can't get it back part to support your beleifs? To do so with me I am simply asking for scripture that says that if we lose faith we are not only lost but lost for good. Can you provide that?

BTW, I am not trying to discourage you in any way. I am simply trying to show why I don't hold your interpertation of Heb's 6 and why it must be, has to be about lost people. That is all I am doing, nothing more. Can a lost person, one that has lost faith be restored?

I have done my best here to stay on subject. I AM NOT THE SUBJECT HERE!



Blessings to you

 

[mellymell]

I must apologize because I in no way intended to cause you to believe that I was offended or defensive at all. I think that because of the way that I write (really straight-forward), and the fact that you can only read it without hearing it, or seeing my own disposition, it seems like I'm defensive, but actually that's not the case at all. But, in future posts, I'll try to watch the tone of the post... It's just kinda hard because when I re-read it, I'm reading it with the intention that was meant for it, and since I know how I didn't intend for it to sound, it doesn't sound that way when I re-read it.   But, I'll keep it in mind for future posts.

You want a scripture to show that once a saved person falls away from the faith, he/she can't be restored, but I think that Heb. 6 provides this. Consider the fact that you can't fall down unless you've been standing. You can't fall away unless you've already previously arrived. These people were saved. You can't be an unsaved "partaker of the Holy Spirit". You can't be unsaved and spiritually "enlightened"... I don't believe that the other descriptions can be attributed to lost people either. The author went into detail in describing who he was referring to for a reason. So that we wouldn't misapply the verse. These people were saved.

Can a lost person, one that has lost faith be restored?

A lost person HASN'T lost faith. A lost person never had it to begin with. That's point I'm trying to make. But, as a Christian, if you lose saving faith, no you can't be restored. This isn't speaking about Christians who have still committed sins, neither even about backsliders, but about apostates. People who have deliberately and as a cause of their will rejected the once trusted in truth that Jesus is the Son of God. These people cannot be restored unto repentance.

God bless.  

 

[eldermike]

Mellymel,

You supoprt your view very well. I disagree with it but respect your ability to defend your view of it. I will just add only one thing. The thing that was fallen away from was grace. God gives us all a measure of grace so that we can know Him by hearing His word. To reject this grace you do not have to come to faith. I contend that this is about the lost attending our churches having never been saved but given this measure of grace.

As pastors, we will be subject to the 90-10 rule (10% of the people will use up 90% of our time). I believe as I posted before that Paul was speaking right at us in that regard in this scripture. If you review the right division of this section of scripture it should lead you to understand that we are not to lose heart over our efforts with these people. It also leads us to understand that we are only messangers of His word and who get's it and who does not is not an area that we should beat ourslves up about.

Blessings



Blessings

 

[mellymell]

Hello.

Originally posted by eldermike
God gives us all a measure of grace so that we can know Him by hearing His word. To reject this grace you do not have to come to faith. I contend that this is about the lost attending our churches having never been saved but given this measure of grace.

Okay, let's say that it's grace that he's speaking about being fallen from. It still doesn't explain how someone that isn't saved could be described as having been enlightened, one who was a partaker of the Holy Ghost, one who had tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come... In all honesty, do you think that this could describe a saved person?

As pastors, we will be subject to the 90-10 rule (10% of the people will use up 90% of our time). I believe as I posted before that Paul was speaking right at us in that regard in this scripture. If you review the right division of this section of scripture it should lead you to understand that we are not to lose heart over our efforts with these people. It also leads us to understand that we are only messangers of His word and who get's it and who does not is not an area that we should beat ourslves up about.

This is very encouraging to know, but it still doesn't describe the author's intent, although I believe it to definitely be true.

God bless.

 

[eldermike]

Those that tasted are ones that have seen the work of the Holy Spirit in us, they have learned from us by teaching His word, this is enlightment that Paul writes about. Notice that Paul uses other phrases to describe the saints, such as brothers, saints and many other embelishments but only here does He call them ones that are enlightened. And the person is wrong for Pauls writing, the saints are directly addressed with some heavely title, the lost are always "those" as they are here in Heb 6.

Here is an example: Paul uses "Those" as an address. Look at the context of it's use. It's always negative.

*** 1:10 For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. 11 They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach--and that for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 Even one of their own prophets has said, "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons." 13 This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith 14 and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. 16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.