Hebrews 5:9 vs Calvinism

[theseed]

"All that obey" are elect. <G>

Yes. That is whay the reformers called it "perserverance". Unlike Arminianists which said salvation was dependant on works and faith, they beleived that all true believers always overcome and are not blotted out of The Book of Life. Hence, they refused to believe that someone could have a right relationship with Christ, and then lose it.

 

[christian-only]

Faith that is dead is not a saving faith.

Living faith is never alone.

 

[theseed]

Living faith is never alone.

 

[theseed]

Living faith is never alone.

Faith and works are 2 sides of the same coin. What difference does it make if I believe that a chair will hold my weight, but don't actually sit it in?

 

[Ben johnson]

Unlike Arminianists which said salvation was dependant on works and faith, they believed that all true believers always overcome and are not blotted out of The Book of Life. Hence, they refused to believe that someone could have a right relationship with Christ, and then lose it.

Second point first: "He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not blot his name from the book of life, and I will confess His name before My Father, and before His angels. But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also denyhim before My Father who is in Heaven. If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He also will deny us; if we are faithless, He remains faithful for He cannot deny Himself." Rev3:5, Matt10:33, 2Tim2:12-13

Where do you get the idea that "we cannot be blotted-from-His-book", that "He cannot deny us before God"?

First point --- I don't know ANY Arminians who really think "works save us". Do you ? Really?

Knowledge is not faith. If an unbeliever hangs around Christians long enough, he will escape the defilements of the world while he is around them, because the Christians don't participate in them. He will gain knowledge of the Lord, and of the way of righteousness through observation. But knowledge doesn't save you. Only faith in Christ saves a person.

CH1, vs1-4: "Apopheugo-escaped the corruption in the world by lust, through the epignosis-true-knowledge of the Kurios-Lord and Soter-Savior Jesus Christ".

CH2, vs20-22: "Apopheugo-escaped defilements of the world, through the epignosis-true-knowledge of the Kurios-Lord and Soter-Savior Jesus Christ".

What possible reason have you for saying "they weren't REALLY saved in chapter 2"? Is there ANY reason BEYOND the preconception of predestined-election? Any?

"Better to never have KNOWN (epiginosko) the way of righteousness, than having KNOWN it, to have turned away FROM it!"

But you say, "they didn't really KNOW it, they didn't really turn away from it ('epistrepho-ek'!)". You deny the very words from the Scripture.

In this passage of scripture, the fact that they returned to their former ways and entanglements, proves they were not really saved. Man's will is not stronger than God's will. John says "if they were truly of us, they would have remained, but they go out from us proving they were never of us". That seems pretty plain to me.

Give the reference, NBF --- 1Jn2:19. And you have never refuted 1Jn2:26-29, warning us "to abide in Him SO THAT we not shrink in shame at His coming". Some Calvinists assert that "not-abiding-shrinking-in-shame", are still saved. If this is your view, then please explain "unabiding-shameful", as being saved. Can you?

2Jn1:7-9 speaks far more plainly of "those who are WITH us, but go too FAR and don't abide --- so they "don't have God". Rather ruins your understanding of 1Jn2:19.

Quite frankly I'm tired of hearing how God can't keep His own people, but has no power to prevent them from leaving. I suppose that must follow if you believe that it was your choice that got you saved.

Only because you focus on verses like Jude 24, and refuse to read verse 21; "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God", NBF. It doesn't "just follow" (from some twisted logic), it is what all of Scripture boldly declares. We can "wander from the truth to perishing" (James5:19-20); we can "be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from the living God" (James1:14-16, Heb3:12-14). MY CHOICE that got me saved? Rather, my choice that received His COMPLETE WORK of salvation. "The oucome of MY BELIEF that saved me", in 1Pet1:9. My perseverance in Him and in salvation in 1Tim4:16, 1Pet1:5-11, Heb6:11-12. And no amount of liquid paper will change the words of Scripture that you find so "unpalatable", NBF.

 

[theseed]

First point --- I don't know ANY Arminians who really think "works save us". Do you ? Really?

I said faith and works, and that is the RCC view specifically. Calvin was orginally RC, so we must consider how that might have influenced his view.

 

[Ben johnson]

I am not qualified to comment on official (Vatican) RCC views, Seed; but the Catholics with whom I have spoken, do believe that "salvation is by grace through faith, not of works". Sometimes it is necessary to properly understand what another believes; I thought "pennance" was payment for sins --- but I was corrected by being told "it is intended to foster a contrite and repentant heart". I thought "praying to saints" was as mediators --- but was told, "no, it's as intercessors." Perhaps there is an understanding of works on which Protestants and Catholics agree --- something more aligned with what James said, "faith that produces no good works, is DEAD (unsaved)". So --- I would say that a Catholic who affirms, "Salvation is by grace through faith; but the works are NECESSARY, in that only true faith does works, and no works demonstrates false faith (unsaved)" --- really believes as I do...

 

[theseed]

am not qualified to comment on official (Vatican) RCC views, Seed; but the Catholics with whom I have spoken, do believe that "salvation is by grace through faith, not of works

That is not what I've been told on this forum, repeatedly. They say thier works are added made into Christ works.

 

[Ben johnson]

Well, whatever anyone says, clearly "we are saved by grace through faith, not as a result of works lest anyone boast".

How works fit into our perspectives, Paul does not neglect: "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk IN them."

 

[nobdysfool]

Well, whatever anyone says, clearly "we are saved by grace through faith, not as a result of works lest anyone boast".

How works fit into our perspectives, Paul does not neglect: "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk IN them."

If you could only grasp the meaning of that verse....