Hebrew Scrolls

[timothyu]

Why did Hebrew scrolls apparently fizzle out with Chronicles roughly 5 centuries before Jesus. Did they run out of God material? They had been on a roll up to that point and even though Chronicles left them expecting a King, they missed the boat on that one so things were still left open until today. You'd think after another 2500 years they would have added a scroll or two if the NT means nothing to them. Did they go silent back then or are there scrolls since that we don't hear about?

 

[Love Fountain]

Why did Hebrew scrolls apparently fizzle out with Chronicles roughly 5 centuries before Jesus. Did they run out of God material? They had been on a roll up to that point and even though Chronicles left them expecting a King, they missed the boat on that one so things were still left open until today. You'd think after another 2500 years they would have added a scroll or two if the NT means nothing to them. Did they go silent back then or are there scrolls since that we don't hear about?

Hello,

The Hebrew texts were set and God brought forward what is known today as the Hebrew Bible or Hebrew Canon consisting of the law, the prophets and the writings. The last book of the Hebrew Bible is Chronicles and funny you should state, "Chronicles left them expecting a King" because the first book in the NT is Matthew and the subject of Matthew is to present Jesus/Yeshua as King!

Here's a good link to the order and subject structure of the Hebrew Canon.

The Structure of The Books of The Old Testament According To The Hebrew Canon.

And here is a good link that shows the order and subject of each Gospel as they each present Jesus/Yeshua in a different way. Matthew presents him as King, Mark presents him as a Servant, Luke presents him as an ideal Man and John presents him as God himself.

THE INTER-RELATION OF THE FOUR GOSPELS. THEIR STRUCTURE AS A WHOLE.

Hope this helps!

Blessings,
Love Fountain

 

[timothyu]

Informative thanks. I'm still curious tough. The Jewish religion carries on today but their connection with God or any advancement seemed to have stopped dead 2500 years ago according to what Christianity would have us believe. The scrolls at that point were not only God related but also a history of the Hebrew people. I am sure they have carried on so there must be advancements made within their existence since within their writings and religion as they still await a king. Are Jews (and Christians) stuck with ancient connections with God, or has the Jewish relationship with God as recorded in their scrolls moved on without the rest of us because Christianity chooses to ignore them and take us in a different direction? Surely their story did not stop 500 years BC. Any new writings or prophets and the like since the rest of us branched off? Has the Jewish religion carried on without us? I'm not a rabbi so I can't answer that.

 

[DragonFox91]

Christians believe the next ‘scroll’ is the books of the New Testament. Christians believe God didn’t leave the Hebrews hanging & the story doesn’t end abruptly with only the promise of a future king. Any Jewish response would be incorrect from a Christian perspective.

 

[bèlla]

If you’re looking at the canon you may believe that’s the case. But when you read related texts it fills in the gaps. Read the apochypha from beginning to end or with the bible in tow.

 

[timothyu]

Christians believe the next ‘scroll’ is the books of the New Testament.

Yes, but what progression in their journey with God has been made on the Jewish front or are they caught in a permanent loop praying and sticking papers in the Wailing Wall. We seem little concerned in their progress because sadly many Christians see themselves as the new chosen people.

 

[DragonFox91]

Yes, but what progression has been made on the Jewish fron,t or are they caught in a permanent loop praying and sticking papers in the Wailing Wall.

Jews have a lot of different interpretations on Scripture fulfillment. Some say most if not all, has been fulfilled. Some say not yet. Some say it was all just to point them in the right direction for lifestyle.

Christians are content w/ the Bible we have. So are a lot of the Jews. God gave them a land & rules to live by, & that's all they need.

 

[timothyu]

So are a lot of the Jews. God gave them a land & rules to live by, & that's all they need.

So you are saying He took the training wheels off 2500 years ago and said you're on your own, then cut communication? I know Jesus came and was rejected but that never stopped God before from trying. It would appear their latest 1900 year scattering in the desert is over for now, so what steps are the Jews doing to get back in communication again like all the other times in their history? Have they been doing so and the rest of us are out of their loop?

 

[DragonFox91]

So you are saying He took the training wheels off 2500 years ago and said you're on your own, then cut communication?

That's what a lot of Jews think.

 

[Nj_]

Informative thanks. I'm still curious tough. The Jewish religion carries on today but their connection with God or any advancement seemed to have stopped dead 2500 years ago according to what Christianity would have us believe. The scrolls at that point were not only God related but also a history of the Hebrew people. I am sure they have carried on so there must be advancements made within their existence since within their writings and religion as they still await a king. Are Jews (and Christians) stuck with ancient connections with God, or has the Jewish relationship with God as recorded in their scrolls moved on without the rest of us because Christianity chooses to ignore them and take us in a different direction? Surely their story did not stop 500 years BC. Any new writings or prophets and the like since the rest of us branched off? Has the Jewish religion carried on without us? I'm not a rabbi so I can't answer that.

Jews rejected God 2000 years ago, they are still awaiting their Messiah (Not realizing that Christ, whom their ancestors crucify and of whom they speak all sorts of blasphemies, IS the Messiah). Their canon is pretty much closed, and they are simply waiting for a Messiah. They haven't had any divine revelation for the last few thousand years, and they've actually replaced Scripture and its authoritative place for their vain traditions and the writings of their Rabbis. Their religion has in a sense carried on, only that without divine inspiration, the religion that has carried on is a false religion that hates Christ and His Church.

 

[timothyu]

They haven't had any divine revelation for the last few thousand years, and they've actually replaced Scripture and its authoritative place for their vain traditions and the writings of their Rabbis.

I understand that but it could be said of Christianity also.

 

[public hermit]

You'd think after another 2500 years they would have added a scroll or two if the NT means nothing to them. Did they go silent back then or are there scrolls since that we don't hear about

I see what you're saying but why would they add to it if they are still waiting for that king. Wouldn't they still be waiting? Did the messianic hope end among the various sects of Judaism? I really don't know enough about it.

What about the Talmud and Midrash, aren't those basically additions if not scriptures, strictly speaking. Do those address the long wait?

 

[Nj_]

I understand that but it could be said of Christianity also.

I wouldn't disagree when it comes to certain Churches that I believe have fallen away from Scriptural and Apostolic teaching trusting instead their own vain traditions (Papists, Palamites, etc.), but there are still genuine believers (there always have been throughout the Church History and always will be) who are still true to Scripture, which is sufficient. The Holy Spirit is still with us, and while you won't see any new canon books since the New Testament was completed 2,000 years before God is still with us.

 

[The Liturgist]

Why did Hebrew scrolls apparently fizzle out with Chronicles roughly 5 centuries before Jesus. Did they run out of God material? They had been on a roll up to that point and even though Chronicles left them expecting a King, they missed the boat on that one so things were still left open until today. You'd think after another 2500 years they would have added a scroll or two if the NT means nothing to them. Did they go silent back then or are there scrolls since that we don't hear about?

The simple answer is that Hebrew ceased to be the vernacular language of the Jewish people, being superseded first by Aramaic, to such a large extent that the Paleo Hebrew alphabet was actually replaced by the Imperial Aramaic “square letter” alphabet among the Jews (which remains in use to this day, although the 800 or so surviving Samaritans continue using an alphabet which is a direct descendant of Paleo-Hebrew), and then subsequently by Greek.

For this reason, the more recent Old Testament books mainly survive in Greek recensions, although the Dead Sea Scrolls point to the existence of Hebrew and Aramaic versions of some of them.

However it is certainly not the case, as some people frustratingly argue, including but certainly not limited to, the editors of Thomas Nelson’s curious* premillennial dispensationalist King James Study Bible, that the Old Testament simply stopped 500 years before the Nativity of our Lord. Indeed, the newest and most recent Old Testament book is the Wisdom of Solomon, which is an extremely beautiful and prophetic book (see chapter 2, which is pure Christological prophecy), which was compiled just sixty years before the birth of our Lord, which I regard as a Holy Miracle.

*I consider it curious because someone without prior knowledge of the current state of Christian denominations and KJV usage one would assume a KJV Study Bible would reflect Anglican doctrine, and would contain all of the books originally present in the KJV (the deuterocanonical books referred to in the KJV as the Apocrypha, such as Ecclesiasticus, Wisdom, Baruch, Tobit, etc.) since the KJV was originally translated and compiled to serve as the liturgical bible for use in the Church of England, and was later adopted in the (Presbyterian) Church of Scotland in the 1660s-1670s as a replacement for the Geneva Bible.

 

[The Liturgist]

I wouldn't disagree when it comes to certain Churches that I believe have fallen away from Scriptural and Apostolic teaching trusting instead their own vain traditions (Papists

We have a large number of extremely pious Christians on this forum who are members of the Roman Catholic Church, and a great many of them take offense at being referred to as “Papists” as this is in the English language understood to be a pejorative term. In the interests of harmonious dialogue on the forum I would urge you not to use that terminology; I myself am not Roman Catholic, but I have only ever been treated well by them, and they have never called me, for example, “schismatic” or any other potentially pejorative terminology. Remember, honey, not vinegar. Or, as the Apostle Paul reminds us, if we have not love, we have nothing.

Palamites

Palmarian Catholics are not regarded as a Christian religion, since starting under their Pope Gregory XVII they began comprehensively modifying the Holy Bible in order to support their curious doctrines. The Palmarians are basically a cult which was originally created by two lawyers, one of whom proclaimed himself Gregory XVII, to exploit Roman Catholics who were legitimately angry about the liturgical changes imposed in the Novus Ordo Missae of 1969, but which gradually adopted their own highly idiosyncratic doctrines which do not align with normative Christianity. They are also an abusive high control group. Fortunately, their growth was somewhat choked both by the emergence of the SSPX and the canonical Ecclesia Dei Latin Mass organizations within the Roman church established under Pope John Paul II, however, I fear it is possible that they, or other groups like them, could receive a new lease on life as a result of the disastrous new policy of Pope Francis to attempt to crack down on the Traditional Latin Mass.

 

[timothyu]

Indeed, the newest and most recent Old Testament book is the Wisdom of Solomon, which is an extremely beautiful and prophetic book (see chapter 2, which is pure Christological prophecy), which was compiled just sixty years before the birth of our Lord, which I regard as a Holy Miracle.

Thank you, however if this refers back to Solomon it would not be considered progression on the Jewish front in recording their relationship with God, but more a reference back. This thread is not about any Christian literature (even though the earliest books and epistles of the NT could be considered Jewish). I am more interested in hearing if the Jews who refused to budge have claimed to have had contact with God since 500 BC., especially after the birth of Jesus. Did religion become more important than actual contact? Was God set aside for the wisdom of man?