Discussion Hebrew Roots; error or something else?

Wild Branches · Jun 7, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
I had to make some corrections. They are shown [in green text like this]. While it is true that the Lord Jesus Christ was made of a woman and made under the law and would be accounted Jewish by the Roman authorities it is also true that his own people rejected him (John 1:11) and called for his execution (Luke 23:21) and it is also true that the Lord Jesus Christ founded the Christian Church (Matthew 16:18) so it is right to call him the founder of Christianity and the head of the Christian church (Ephesians 5:21; Col 1:18) therefore it is not really correct to refer to the risen Lord as Jewish in any but the sense of natural descent from Abraham through Isaac and Jacob (Matthew 1:1).

Who told you Yeshua didn't speak Hebrew? The Torah scroll was always written in the Hebrew. "He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and stood up for to read." ~~Luke 4:16 (He read Isaiah 61 from the Torah scroll) In fact, He (being Hebrew) quoted Torah frequently in His ministry. You are aware that the very first gentile convert to Messianic Judaism was Cornelius right? It is true that over time the movement became predominantly gentile. But not all of His people rejected Him, as you say. It wasn't until after Yeshua's death that He told his Jewish followers to go to the gentiles. The truth is that all his followers at the time were Jews. And yes, they spoke Hebrew, as well as Koine Greek, and possibly Aramaic.

Messy · Jun 7, 2015

Messianics are followers of your very Jewish[Christian]Messiah

Christian Messiah?
That means christian Christ. He's not a Follower of Himself or does that mean anointed Anointed One or something?

MoreCoffee · Jun 7, 2015

Wild Branches said:
Who told you ~~Yeshua~~ [Jesus] didn't speak Hebrew? The Torah scroll was always written in the Hebrew. "He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and stood up for to read." ~~Luke 4:16 (He read Isaiah 61 from the Torah scroll) In fact, He (being Hebrew) quoted Torah frequently in His ministry. You are aware that the very first gentile convert to ~~Messianic Judaism~~ [Christ] was Cornelius right? [Probably not, there was the Canaan woman (Matt 15:28) and the Centurion (Mark 8:13) mentioned in the gospels] It is true that over time the movement became predominantly gentile. But not all of His people rejected Him~~, as you say~~[, as the scriptures say]. It wasn't until ~~after Yeshua's death~~ [towards the end of his earthly ministry (Mark 13:10)] that He told his ~~Jewish~~ followers to go to ~~the gentiles~~[all nations]. The truth is that all his followers at the time were ~~Jews~~[Hebrews]. And yes, they spoke ~~Hebrew~~[Aramaic], as well as Koine Greek, and possibly ~~Aramaic~~[Hebrew].

Torah was written in Hebrew and was read in Hebrew (probably) but the spoken language in Judea in the first century was Aramaic and Greek among merchants and others who needed to deal with Greek speakers, Latin may have been spoken among the Roman troops and elite so Hebrew was not the spoken language and Mary would very likely have been addressed by the angel Gabriel in Aramaic. As far as what Jesus said when speaking to the public and quoting (from memory) the holy scriptures, he could have spoken them in Hebrew but more likely it was in Aramaic and the written evidence we have is in Greek so the claim you've made in your post is not as firm as you may want to believe it is.

Messy · Jun 7, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
Torah was written in Hebrew and was read in Hebrew (probably) but the spoken language in Judea in the first century was Aramaic and Greek among merchants and others who needed to deal with Greek speakers, Latin may have been spoken among the Roman troops and elite so Hebrew was not the spoken language and Mary would very likely have been addressed by the angel Gabriel in Aramaic. As far as what Jesus said when speaking to the public and quoting (from memory) the holy scriptures, he may has spoken them in Hebrew but more likely it was in Aramaic and the written evidence we have is in Greek so the claim you've made in your post is not as firm as you may want to believe it is.

I think He spoke Hebrew, Greek and Aramic then and to me He speaks Dutch.

MoreCoffee · Jun 7, 2015

Messy said:
I think He spoke Hebrew, Greek and Aramic then and to me He speaks Dutch.

I am sure that the Lord Jesus Christ speaks every human language now. In his earthly preaching he would have spoken the common language of the people in Judea which at that time was Aramaic. When reading the scrolls in synagogue he would likely read in Hebrew. When speaking with Pilate he may have spoken Greek, though we don't know if Pilate spoke Aramaic as well as Greek and Latin.

MoreCoffee · Jun 7, 2015

Messy said:
Messianics are followers of your very ~~Jewish~~ Christian]Messiah

Click to expand...

Christian Messiah?
That means christian Christ. He's not a Follower of Himself or does that mean anointed Anointed One or something?

Yes, Jesus was not a religious Jew as is evident from the way the Pharisees and Sadducees reacted to him and his teaching. So although the Lord Jesus Christ was made under the law (Gal 2:4) and complied with all that the old covenant required he was not a rabbinic Jew and not a Pharisee or a member of any of the Jewish sects of his day. His teaching was distinctly Christian and hence he was himself a Christian though that name was not coined until after his ascension to heaven. Being a Christian is about following the teaching and the example of Christ as well as being united to Christ in baptism. So it is undeniable that the Lord Jesus Christ really did live the gospel himself and hence is a "Christian" forever.

The difficulty in this thread's use of "Jew" is that the meaning is being equivocated and so religious notions are being slipped in under the word "Jew" when applied to Jesus Christ. Jesus was a Hebrew but he was not a religious Jew because his teaching was radically out of step with the Jewish religious teaching of his contemporaries - the Pharisees and Sadducees. It is better therefore to refer to the Lord as a Hebrew and his religious views as Christian since they clearly are Christian in content.

Messy · Jun 7, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
Yes, Jesus was not a religious Jew as is evident from the way the Pharisees and Sadducees reacted to him and his teaching. So although the Lord Jesus Christ was made under the law (Gal 2:4) and complied with all that the old covenant required he was not a rabbinic Jew and not a Pharisee or a member of any of the Jewish sects of his day. His teaching was distinctly Christian and hence he was himself a Christian though that name was not coined until after his ascension to heaven. Being a Christian is about following the teaching and the example of Christ as well as being united to Christ in baptism. So it is undeniable that the Lord Jesus Christ really did live the gospel himself and hence is a "Christian" forever.

The difficulty in this thread's use of "Jew" is that the meaning is being equivocated and so religious notions are being slipped in under the word "Jew" when applied to Jesus Christ. Jesus was a Hebrew but he was not a religious Jew because his teaching was radically out of step with the Jewish religious teaching of his contemporaries - the Pharisees and Sadducees. It is better therefore to refer to the Lord as a Hebrew and his religious views as Christian since they clearly are Christian in content.

He was a real Jew, the Pharisees were not.
http://m.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/640221/jewish/What-is-the-Meaning-of-the-Name-Jew.htm

the name Yehudah shares the same root as the Hebrew word hoda'ah, which means acknowledgement or submission. One who acknowledges G‑d's existence and submits to His authority--to the extent that he is willing to sacrifice his life for the sanctification of His name--he is called aYehudi.

MoreCoffee · Jun 7, 2015

Messy said:
MoreCoffee said:

Yes, Jesus was not a religious Jew as is evident from the way the Pharisees and Sadducees reacted to him and his teaching. So although the Lord Jesus Christ was made under the law (Gal 2:4) and complied with all that the old covenant required he was not a rabbinic Jew and not a Pharisee or a member of any of the Jewish sects of his day. His teaching was distinctly Christian and hence he was himself a Christian though that name was not coined until after his ascension to heaven. Being a Christian is about following the teaching and the example of Christ as well as being united to Christ in baptism. So it is undeniable that the Lord Jesus Christ really did live the gospel himself and hence is a "Christian" forever.

The difficulty in this thread's use of "Jew" is that the meaning is being equivocated and so religious notions are being slipped in under the word "Jew" when applied to Jesus Christ. Jesus was a Hebrew but he was not a religious Jew because his teaching was radically out of step with the Jewish religious teaching of his contemporaries - the Pharisees and Sadducees. It is better therefore to refer to the Lord as a Hebrew and his religious views as Christian since they clearly are Christian in content.

Click to expand...

He was a real Jew, the Pharisees were not.
http://m.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/640221/jewish/What-is-the-Meaning-of-the-Name-Jew.htm

the name Yehudah shares the same root as the Hebrew word hoda'ah, which means acknowledgement or submission. One who acknowledges G‑d's existence and submits to His authority--to the extent that he is willing to sacrifice his life for the sanctification of His name--he is called aYehudi.

Jesus was, as the scriptures say, made of a woman, made under the law (Galatians 2:4) and he was a Hebrew of the tribe of Judah (Hebrew 7:12-14) but he was not a Pharisee nor a Sadducee not an Essene or a member of any other sect of Judaism in his day. He taught his followers the new covenant and that is called Christianity. Christ was a Hebrew but not a Rabbinic Jew. Rabbinic Jews are essentially Pharisees. The use of "Jew" to describe both Hebrews and Rabbinic Jews causes much confusion. So let's be clear and call him what he was a Hebrew of the tribe of Judah and the teacher Christianity and Lord of all.

Wild Branches · Jun 7, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
Torah was written in Hebrew and was read in Hebrew (probably) but the spoken language in Judea in the first century was Aramaic and Greek among merchants and others who needed to deal with Greek speakers, Latin may have been spoken among the Roman troops and elite so Hebrew was not the spoken language and Mary would very likely have been addressed by the angel Gabriel in Aramaic. As far as what Jesus said when speaking to the public and quoting (from memory) the holy scriptures, he could have spoken them in Hebrew but more likely it was in Aramaic and the written evidence we have is in Greek so the claim you've made in your post is not as firm as you may want to believe it is.

Hebrew was and is the sacred language of the Jewish people, so Gabriel would have most likely addressed Mary in Hebrew. The fact that other languages were spoken in Judea at the time has no bearing on this matter. The Torah is sacred, it is always written in the sacred language, it was quoted in the sacred language. Most any Jewish person understood the Hebrew. These words, which I am ordering you today, are to be on your heart; and you are to teach them carefully to your children. You are to talk about them when you sit at home, when you are traveling on the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them on your hand as a sign, put them at the front of a headband around your forehead, and write them on the door-frames of your house and on your gates. ~~Deuteronomy 6:6-9 They spoke Hebrew. His name is Yeshua.

MoreCoffee · Jun 7, 2015

Wild Branches said:
Hebrew was and is the sacred language of the ~~Jewish~~ [Hebrew] people, so Gabriel would have most likely addressed Mary in Hebrew [Why? Mary was a native Aramaic speaker so why would an angel come to her speaking Hebrew?]. The fact that other languages were spoken in Judea at the time has no bearing on this matter. [It may be your wish that it is irrelevant but the truth is very different from this expressed wish in your post] The Torah is sacred, it is always written in the sacred language, it was quoted in the sacred language.[Parts of the book of Daniel are written in Aramaic so I think this "sacred language" theory in your post is not supported by the facts and of course the entire new testament is written in Greek with a few words written in Aramaic but almost none in Hebrew] Most any Jewish person understood the Hebrew.[This is an unsupported claim, you'd need to produce more than wishful thinking to back your claim]

These words, which I am ordering you today, are to be on your heart; and you are to teach them carefully to your children. You are to talk about them when you sit at home, when you are traveling on the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them on your hand as a sign, put them at the front of a headband around your forehead, and write them on the door-frames of your house and on your gates. ~~Deuteronomy 6:6-9
They spoke ~~Hebrew~~ [Aramaic in first century Judea]. His name is ~~Yeshua~~ [Jesus].

My reply is embedded [in text like this] in the quote above.

Wild Branches · Jun 7, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
My reply is embedded [in text like this] in the quote above.

DANIEL is not Torah. Torah is the first five books of the Tanakh. Torah is always in Hebrew. His name is Yeshua.

MoreCoffee · Jun 7, 2015

Wild Branches said:
DANIEL is not Torah. Torah is the first five books of the Tanakh. Torah is always in Hebrew. His name is ~~Yeshua~~ [Jesus].

And?

What does it matter if Daniel is not Torah Daniel is an inspired book of holy scripture and the self evident truth that it contradicts the "sacred language" theory is relevant to any discussion of "Hebrew names" and "Hebrew roots" because it appears that advocates for "Hebrew roots" want to treat the Hebrew language as privileged (sacred, holy, set apart by God) when it isn't.

By the way, why does your post fail to reply to the points raised in what I wrote and to which you replied but without really replying?

Why do you write that Gabriel spoke to Mary in Hebrew? Mary was a native Aramaic speaker so why would an angel come to her speaking Hebrew?

Wild Branches · Jun 7, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
And?

What does it matter if Daniel is not Torah Daniel is an inspired book of holy scripture and the self evident truth that it contradicts the "sacred language" theory is relevant to any discussion of "Hebrew names" and "Hebrew roots" because it appears that advocates for "Hebrew roots" want to treat the Hebrew language as privileged (sacred, holy, set apart by God) when it isn't.

What does it matter if Daniel is written in Aramaic? The whole point is that God commanded the people to keep the Torah (which is written in the sacred language) on their hearts, teach it diligently to their children (In Hebrew) write it on their doorposts (In Hebrew) while walking down the road (In Hebrew) Wouldn't this mean they had to speak Hebrew? God dictated the Torah to Moses in Hebrew because it is the sacred language. The rest of the Tanakh is inspired. If God chose to reveal His Word to Moses in Hebrew why would He not choose to do the same with Mary, (since she was diligently taught the Torah and obviously spoke the sacred language?

MoreCoffee · Jun 7, 2015

Wild Branches said:
What does it matter if Daniel is written in Aramaic? The whole point is that God commanded the people to keep the Torah (which is written in the sacred language) on their hearts, teach it diligently to their children (In Hebrew) write it on their doorposts (In Hebrew) while walking down the road (In Hebrew) Wouldn't this mean they had to speak Hebrew? God dictated the Torah to Moses in Hebrew because it is the sacred language. The rest of the Tanakh is inspired. If God chose to reveal His Word to Moses in Hebrew why would He not choose to do the same with Mary, (since she was diligently taught the Torah and obviously spoke the sacred language?

Teach in Hebrew? Maybe, though they would teach the law to their children in whatever language was their native tongue first and later when the child learned to understand Hebrew they could teach in Hebrew.

This "sacred language theory" was used for a while in the Latin speaking Church to justify the use of Latin in the liturgy and as the primary language for holy scripture in Western Europe but it was wrong for exactly the same reasons that your stated theory is wrong.

God didn't make Hebrew sacred any more than he made Greek sacred and Aramaic sacred by having his words recorded under inspiration in those languages. Hebrew is just one of many languages. It has no special status as sacred. So the angel Gabriel would, without doubt, have spoken to Mary in her native tongue just as the Holy Spirit caused the disciples to speak the wonderful works of God to the crowd in the native tongues of the crowd's members - each of us hears them in his own native language ... Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs--we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues. (see Acts 2:8-11). If the Holy Spirit deigns to speak in Latin to Romans he would not fail to send his servant Gabriel to speak Aramaic to Blessed Mary.

Frogster · Jun 7, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
I thought it was a good question but I didn't get a reply until I asked several more questions about the specifics of bacon, lobster, and clam chowder! I am not sure why it happens but some posts are not really responses to what is asked or what is written. I guess it is easier to play the man than to address the issue.

red above, I totally understand, and agree.

Frogster · Jun 7, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
BLT is almost heaven

with mayo!

Frogster · Jun 7, 2015

jiminpa said:
How could they be Messianic if they don't profess Jesus? Are they claiming some other messiah?

Messy said:
Are you sure? That sounds disgusting.
Makes me think of that time someone ordered chicken wings in a restaurant and it had blood, so he called the waiter who said: eewww this is disgusting.
The life of the flesh is in the blood.
Drinking His blood is becoming one with Him.
Things strangled, a pastor I had who once was a butcher said you should never buy meat in the supermarket that they discount very much because then it is from a cow that just died itself. I know one guy who just ate an animal he saw on the street, dead. We're not vultures.
Not eating blood is from before the law of Moses.
I even remove it from baked fish and eggs but maybe I go too far.

welp, i don't eat snails, but some do, we are free to chow down on whatever food we want! No mosaic laws apply on food stuff

Frogster · Jun 7, 2015

JLB777 said:
How many of those congregations confess Jesus as YHWH?

I have seen a wide and vast amount of doctrine in certain groups. Keep posting, I am curious to hear your thoughts.

Frogster · Jun 7, 2015

Wild Branches said:
If the church is the dry bones, we need to find out when it was ever cut off. The church is not the dry bones, Israel is.

no, the church is a spiritual body, see 1 peter 2, and Eph 2, peter and Paul agree, we are the church.

Frogster · Jun 7, 2015

Messy said:
What is the law of sin and death? That you just have to sin and then die or something?

SpiritPsalmist said:
"The Law of Sin and Death" is the habitual tendency to sin which works in the members before the sinner is converted and joined to Christ. It is the carnal or fleshly nature from which man is freed and to which he dies when connected to Christ. It is the law of sin. "Sin is the transgression of the law." r John 3:4. Sin (transgression) is what men who come to Christ die to. This is what Paul means when he says, "If her husband be dead, she is freed from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man." Rom. 7:3. Whom does Paul mean by the words, "the husband be dead"? What is "dead"? To what is the woman dead? Paul answers, "How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" He calls this first husband "our old man." Rom. 6:6. He says, "Our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." He says again, "He that is dead is freed from sin." Rom. 6:7. When this "old man" is dead, the woman is free. Rom. 7:3. Free from what? Paul answers as above, "Free from sin." In Romans 6, note the words "dead to sin" (Verse 2) and "free from sin." Verse 22. In Romans 8:2, we read, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

Romans 5:20 says the law came to increase the sin, and that was the sin that led to death.

Sin and death, are connected to law with Paul, in no uncertain terms.

Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

7:11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

Discussion Hebrew Roots; error or something else?

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