Discussion Hebrew Roots; error or something else?

Ken Rank · Jun 5, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
The Word being written on our hearts has already happened at salvation.

Well, this will be easy. Please post the verse that says the law was written on your heart at salvation.

And, if you want to address this (but please address the other question first)..... are you saved now? I mean, you still age, decay, get disease, die, are confronted with all manner of sin and distractions designed to pull you from God... are you saved NOW or does the Scripture say, "shall be saved?"

ToBeLoved · Jun 5, 2015

Ken Rank said:
You're just showing you don't understand what we are saying. We are NOT SAYING God cares if somebody is Jewish or not... NOT SAYING that! All that is being said is that, in the first century, most were Jewish and the believers still went to synagogue on Sabbath... the book of Acts says this! We don't need to be Jewish... but the faith as practiced and was understood in the first century BY Yeshua and those who followed him.... LOOKED more Jewish IN PRACTICE than not. That is from the bible, not from man!

And with your point being that the first century apostles and believers were Jewish, I am adding how the Lord enlightened the founders of the Christian faith as to how those Jewish customs were or were not part of the New Covenant.

That is relevent.

Ken Rank · Jun 5, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
And with your point being that the first century apostles and believers were Jewish, I am adding how the Lord enlightened the founders of the Christian faith as to how those Jewish customs were or were not part of the New Covenant.

That is relevent.

Some customs, not all. When Yeshua said, "I am living water" it was on the last Great Day of Sukkot, tabernacles... a feast he took part in. We see him in the book of John taking part in Hanukkah, a celebration not found in the Christian bible. So are you SURE of your last comment?

SpiritPsalmist · Jun 5, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
Excellent. So why are you in the HRM?

I'm not. However, I do learn from some of the on-line teachings. I attend a small group that seems to be a mix of Hebrew Roots and Charismatic and not sure what else. LOL I need fellowship and as far as I can find it's the only thing near me that I kinda fit into being that I observe Sabbath and I do believe Torah is still in play and so do they. They do use the name "Yahweh" but it's not insisted that everyone use that name. I've not heard any of the other teachings that you mentioned. God must have me there for a reason. It's better than being a recluse and not going anywhere.

ToBeLoved · Jun 5, 2015

Ken Rank said:
Well, this will be easy. Please post the verse that says the law was written on your heart at salvation.

And, if you want to address this (but please address the other question first)..... are you saved now? I mean, you still age, decay, get disease, die, are confronted with all manner of sin and distractions designed to pull you from God... are you saved NOW or does the Scripture say, "shall be saved?"

See Romans 2

I think it would be good for you to read the bible for yourself.

ToBeLoved · Jun 5, 2015

Ken Rank said:
Some customs, not all. When Yeshua said, "I am living water" it was on the last Great Day of Sukkot, tabernacles... a feast he took part in. We see him in the book of John taking part in Hanukkah, a celebration not found in the Christian bible. So are you SURE of your last comment?

I'm sure. I wrote exactly what I meant to write.

Steeno7 · Jun 5, 2015

Ken Rank said:
The point is, for the first decade almost ALL of the "Christians" were Jews. And the faith remained predominately Jewish until 134AD when most of the remaining Jewish believers left the area when Bar Khokba was falsely named Messiah by Rabbi Akiva in an effort to rally the Jews against the Romans in what was their "last stand." Then, after that time, the faith quickly became majority Greek and whether you realize it now or not... Greek philosophy became to permeate the doctrinal view. But, that is a long study. Be well.

No. The point is those first "Christians" were predominately ethnically Jewish. And they learned over time what it meant to now be under the new covenant of Grace.

And, the Greek thing is the whole basis of the HRM claim for the need to revert to a "Hebrew mindset". It is an erroneous basis and claim which I have already corrected you on.

ToBeLoved · Jun 5, 2015

Ken Rank said:
You're just showing you don't understand what we are saying. We are NOT SAYING God cares if somebody is Jewish or not... NOT SAYING that! All that is being said is that, in the first century, most were Jewish and the believers still went to synagogue on Sabbath... the book of Acts says this! We don't need to be Jewish... but the faith as practiced and was understood in the first century BY Yeshua and those who followed him.... LOOKED more Jewish IN PRACTICE than not. That is from the bible, not from man!

Please read again what I did say.

If you feel it is necessary to add extra meaning to my words, I am not going to defend that premise. It is important to read what people indeed have said and make your statement based off of that.

SpiritPsalmist · Jun 5, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
That is a MAJOR problem with the teaching. It is the reliance on extra-biblical sources (ie.. books) and the oral understanding.

That is why many do not understand Christian teaching, because we do not base our faith on these other sources. The Talmud is not part of the bible as you have rightfully told us.

Jesus read the Talmud.

Steeno7 · Jun 5, 2015

Ken Rank said:
It is the same for all.... if GOD SAID that when the law is written on the heart that there will no longer be a need to teach because all will know HIM.... and at this time not all know Him and there is still a need to teach... then that requirement is not met. And that has nothing to do with you, me, or anyone else. The fact remains, if not all know the Lord and there is still a need to teach... the work isn't done in ANYONE alive today!

Nonsense.

Steeno7 · Jun 5, 2015

Ken Rank said:
You're just showing you don't understand what we are saying. We are NOT SAYING God cares if somebody is Jewish or not... NOT SAYING that! All that is being said is that, in the first century, most were Jewish and the believers still went to synagogue on Sabbath... the book of Acts says this! We don't need to be Jewish... but the faith as practiced and was understood in the first century BY Yeshua and those who followed him.... LOOKED more Jewish IN PRACTICE than not. That is from the bible, not from man!

The book of Acts records the historical movement of those first Christians from the mistaken notion that Christianity could be part of Judaism to understanding it was something entirely new.

ToBeLoved · Jun 5, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
Jesus read the Talmud.

And? It just shows even more that Jesus had all the information and still chose the direction He did for us with the New Covenant. And since He ONLY did the perfect will of the Father, we know that He has lead us in the right direction.

Jesus did the perfect will of the Father. The Holy Spirit only confirms Jesus.

SpiritPsalmist · Jun 5, 2015

Steeno7 said:
No. The point is those first "Christians" were predominately ethnically Jewish. And they learned over time what it meant to now be under the new covenant of Grace.

And, the Greek thing is the whole basis of the HRM claim for the need to revert to a "Hebrew mindset". It is an erroneous claim which I have already corrected you on.

I disagree. How can a foreigner come to your home and see and hear things they have never heard before and without finding out the specifics of what you are talking about come to the correct conclusion of what is going on? I remember one time, one of my roommates had a friend from Brazil come to stay with us for awhile. We lived in a large house and there were five women who shared it. We had a problem with "roaches" and were sitting at the table talking about "bombing" the house. I looked over at my roommates friend and saw the look of confusion on her face and realized she thought we were talking about bombing (as in blowing up) the house, when in fact we were not. So, how can we read scripture from a time and culture that we have no part in and come to the correct conclusion of what exactly is going on and being told to us? It's possible to get some understanding but not a complete understanding, unless of course the Holy Spirit gives you the info of the cultural meaning. It is not erroneous nor should you just expect anyone to just accept your correction because you say so.

SpiritPsalmist · Jun 5, 2015

Steeno7 said:
The book of Acts records the historical movement of those first Christians from the mistaken notion that Christianity could be part of Judaism to understanding it was something entirely new.

Say what? So you're saying that Acts shows how they were all making mistakes about their faith?????? If you can see that they thought it was part of Judaism, where do you suppose they got that notion??? Oh, from Jesus maybe. You're doctrine is frequently quite different from any I've ever heard before and I've grown up in the church.

Steeno7 · Jun 5, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
I disagree. How can a foreigner come to your home and see and hear things they have never heard before and without finding out the specifics of what you are talking about come to the correct conclusion of what is going on? I remember one time, one of my roommates had a friend from Brazil come to stay with us for awhile. We lived in a large house and there were five women who shared it. We had a problem with "roaches" and were sitting at the table talking about "bombing" the house. I looked over at my roommates friend and saw the look of confusion on her face and realized she thought we were talking about bombing (as in blowing up) the house, when in fact we were not. So, how can we read scripture from a time and culture that we have no part in and come to the correct conclusion of what exactly is going on and being told to us? It's possible to get some understanding but not a complete understanding, unless of course the Holy Spirit gives you the info of the cultural meaning. It is not erroneous nor should you just expect anyone to just accept your correction because you say so.

ALL of the NT writers were writing from within the context of the new covenant. It is only in that context it can be understood. The question we ask is not what does this mean to a Hebrew. The question we ask us what does this mean in light of the Cross and the new covenant Jesus ushered in through it.

ToBeLoved · Jun 5, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
I disagree. How can a foreigner come to your home and see and hear things they have never heard before and without finding out the specifics of what you are talking about come to the correct conclusion of what is going on? I remember one time, one of my roommates had a friend from Brazil come to stay with us for awhile. We lived in a large house and there were five women who shared it. We had a problem with "roaches" and were sitting at the table talking about "bombing" the house. I looked over at my roommates friend and saw the look of confusion on her face and realized she thought we were talking about bombing (as in blowing up) the house, when in fact we were not. So, how can we read scripture from a time and culture that we have no part in and come to the correct conclusion of what exactly is going on and being told to us? It's possible to get some understanding but not a complete understanding, unless of course the Holy Spirit gives you the info of the cultural meaning. It is not erroneous nor should you just expect anyone to just accept your correction because you say so.

The Old Testament writings were available at that time. It is helpful to have an understanding of the Old Testament writings, but as we can see by the many churches that Paul started in other parts of the world, Christianity had a certain ability to stand on it's own without the cultural aspects. I think that is perfectly clear with the many epistles that Paul wrote to the churches.

How is that even really relevant to this discussion, what you wrote?

What I see is that people are throwing spaghetti at a wall hoping that one of the strings of pasta sticks. How much pasta has been cooked? lol.

Ken Rank · Jun 5, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
See Romans 2

I think it would be good for you to read the bible for yourself.

That isn't a very kind thing to say. I have been a Christian with Jesus as my Lord for over 20 years, and if he is your Lord, that makes us family. We need to act like it! Strife between brethren is something God HATES! (see Prov. 6:16-19)

That said, I asked for a verse, one verse... just one.... can you provide a verse that says the Law is currently written in your heart NOW? Yes or no... and if yes, provide the VERSE.

ToBeLoved · Jun 5, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
Say what? So you're saying that Acts shows how they were all making mistakes about their faith?????? If you can see that they thought it was part of Judaism, where do you suppose they got that notion??? Oh, from Jesus maybe. You're doctrine is frequently quite different from any I've ever heard before and I've grown up in the church.

Can we please distringuish between the Jewish race and the Jewish religion. I fill like these two things are thrown together intermittenly and often and it is most confusing.

ToBeLoved · Jun 5, 2015

Ken Rank said:
That isn't a very kind thing to say. I have been a Christian with Jesus as my Lord for over 20 years, and if he is your Lord, that makes us family. We need to act like it! Strife between brethren is something God HATES! (see Prov. 6:16-19)

That said, I asked for a verse, one verse... just one.... can you provide a verse that says the Law is currently written in your heart NOW? Yes or no... and if yes, provide the VERSE.

It was not meant to be an insult. I am only saying that I am not going to spoon feed scripture into this entire conversation. I would only like you to reference the scriputre for yourself, maybe I didn't word that well.

Ken Rank · Jun 5, 2015

Steeno7 said:
Nonsense.

You have just called the bible nonsense!

Jeremiah 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: ; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts. (34) No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

It says God will put His law on their hearts and then NEXT IT SAYS.... "no more shall every man TEACH his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'know the LORD," for they all shall know me."

So, do ALL know the LORD? The answer is clearly "No." If the answer is no, the work is not done because the work is tied to all knowing the Lord.

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