Discussion Hebrew Roots; error or something else?

[MoreCoffee]

There's a movement afoot that goes by several names and covers several shades of meaning. The most descriptive name is Hebrew Roots. Some of you will be familiar with this movement, some may be members, some may be opposed. I am curious to find out more about it and about what is right or wrong about its teaching. Please offer your views and if you have backing from holy scripture please include it.

 

[Messy]

I found out my dad had a book from a forefather who was a Jew and wrote why he got convinced that Jesus is the Messiah. Very interesting, when I have a question about the Trinity or a meaning of a word or other things I look what Michael Brown or someone else who is Jewish has to say.
There's a lot missing/ wrong if you only read the New Testament and hear the explanation that the church is the dry bones from Ezekiel that will be revived.
I think Hebrew roots is going back to your roots. He will turn the hearts of the children to the fathers and from the fathers to the children.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I found out my dad had a book from a forefather who was a Jew and wrote why he got convinced that Jesus is the Messiah. Very interesting, when I have a question about the Trinity or a meaning of a word or other things I look what Michael Brown or someone else who is Jewish has to say.
There's a lot missing/ wrong if you only read the New Testament and hear the explanation that the church is the dry bones from Ezekiel that will be revived.
I think Hebrew roots is going back to your roots. He will turn the hearts of the children to the fathers and from the fathers to the children.

Do you read the Hebrew scriptures (old testament) and then go to the Greek scriptures of the new covenant (new testament)?

 

[Messy]

Do you read the Hebrew scriptures (old testament) and then go to the Greek scriptures of the new covenant (new testament)?

To be honest I've never read the whole Old Testament, only the nice parts. They told me: start with John and somehow I always only read the N.T., some nice Psalms and fun Proverbs and Jonah and Esther and Genesis, Exodus maybe too, don't know if I finished that. I always heard that you should read the Old with the glasses of the New Testament.

I just listen to what people say who really studied it and know the language.
For instance about the Trinity, I think it's interesting that it's in the Old Testament too, Michael Brown said that when he debated Jewish scholars or rabbi's. Like God walked in the Garden of Eden. How can God walk? Is He human and small? In the synagogues they used to explain those texts with an added word for the lay people to understand: the Word/Memra of the Lord walked in the garden, so that's Jesus.
Lol don't know if that's Hebrew roots, I always call it Hebrew roots. I also know people who are so ooooooh wooooow Israel, you're a Jew, from the chosen people, can I have your signature? Have to watch out with that too, lol.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

There's a movement afoot that goes by several names and covers several shades of meaning. The most descriptive name is Hebrew Roots. Some of you will be familiar with this movement, some may be members, some may be opposed. I am curious to find out more about it and about what is right or wrong about its teaching. Please offer your views and if you have backing from holy scripture please include it.

I listen to some Hebrew Roots teaching such as Passion For Truth Ministries, and a couple of others which off the top of my head can't remember right now. I was involved with the Messianic Movement for years but since moving from Florida to Kansas there just are no, oh, what I would say are legitimate Messianic groups near where I live. I do attend a small group now that is kinda sorta Hebrew Roots I guess. I need fellowship and their not as loopy as a few others in the area.

Sorry to be so vague...there are just so many different groups out there calling themselves this and that and in my opinion they are just their own made up version that keeps what they like and throws out what they don't like. Sigh. I'm not opposed to Hebrew Roots, you just gotta be careful to not get involved with the ones that have a replacement theology...IOW some of them think the Gentiles have replaced the Jews. I do believe that we can understand better what is being said in the NT if we understand what the initial receivers of these letters understood when they heard/read them. As much as many might disagree, I think it near impossible to put a Western mindset to the culture of that time and get a correct understanding. I personally have come to see that a lot of what I've grown up being taught is not correct at all. Not necessarily bad, just not correct.

Anyway, I think that's what is right about Hebrew Roots teaching is that God has not changed. He's the same yesterday, today, and forever. The NT is an extension of the Old and in reading through it, it can be found to be a very high percentage of quoting of the Old. A lot of people just don't know the Old well enough to catch it when it's quoted in the New. The only thing Paul talks about as New in the book of Hebrews is a New High Priest who neither sleeps nor slumbers and is at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us around the clock.

I would suggest, (not that you aren't) that you research the different sites/groups themselves. Passion For Truth Ministries, in my opinion, has very good teaching. I would suggest that you take any comments from those here, bad and good, and research it for yourself. There are many who will say Hebrew Roots believe this and that and so on and so forth but they only know their perception of it. I remember when I first started getting into the Messianic Movement, I had been attending a Messianic Synagogue for months before I mentioned something to my Pastors. They got upset and went on a tirade of "the Messianic believes this and that and so on and so forth" but every word they said was not what I had experienced at all. Now I know there are bad groups out there that do fit the "they believe this and that and so on and so forth", but there are also very legitimate ones.

 

[Steeno7]

There's a movement afoot that goes by several names and covers several shades of meaning. The most descriptive name is Hebrew Roots. Some of you will be familiar with this movement, some may be members, some may be opposed. I am curious to find out more about it and about what is right or wrong about its teaching. Please offer your views and if you have backing from holy scripture please include it.

IMHO it is nothing more than the latest flavor of the continuing attempt to judaize Christianity that has been going on since the inception of Christianity, and which so much of the NT was written to guard against.

 

[Frogster]

Speaking about Gentiles, they don't have Hebrew roots, and we are of Abraham, who received the gospel as a gentile, and all the families were mentioned in Gen 12:3, that meant gentiles. Abraham was justified as a gentile in 15:6. Paul fought those who would impose Judaism on the churches, the most, and often used Abraham in his argument.

 

[Frogster]

Paul teaches in Hebrews that the old cov is abolished, and he talks about the new Cov.

 

[Frogster]

To be honest I've never read the whole Old Testament, only the nice parts. They told me: start with John and somehow I always only read the N.T., some nice Psalms and fun Proverbs and Jonah and Esther and Genesis, Exodus maybe too, don't know if I finished that. I always heard that you should read the Old with the glasses of the New Testament.

I just listen to what people say who really studied it and know the language.
For instance about the Trinity, I think it's interesting that it's in the Old Testament too, Michael Brown said that when he debated Jewish scholars or rabbi's. Like God walked in the Garden of Eden. How can God walk? Is He human and small? In the synagogues they used to explain those texts with an added word for the lay people to understand: the Word/Memra of the Lord walked in the garden, so that's Jesus.
Lol don't know if that's Hebrew roots, I always call it Hebrew roots. I also know people who are so ooooooh wooooow Israel, you're a Jew, from the chosen people, can I have your signature? Have to watch out with that too, lol.

red above, yes! The is a predominate feature in the group, everything is all about Israel, they care more about Israel, it seems, even more than the church, really sad...Israel, Israel, Israel.

 

[Grafted In]

IMHO it is nothing more than the latest flavor of the continuing attempt to judaize Christianity that has been going on since the inception of Christianity, and lowhich so much of the NT was written to guard against.

It's a very sad thing that it seems as though you have been mislead by some of the groups that are giving bad teaching leaving you to think they are all bad. Most of the really deep understanding I have been given by Jesus Christ came to me via observant Jews who've accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. They have spent all of their lives prior to getting saved practicing the types and shadows from Old Testament Scripture, then their eyes are opened by The Holy Ghost after Salvation they have a far deeper understanding of both old and new.
I am so very thankful to God that He led me to Zola Levitt shortly after I got saved. Zola was a very gentle hearted person who taught from the real roots of the tree that we have been grafted into. How I do cherish his teaching. When he spoke (and he crammed a lot into 30 minutes) The Holy Ghost was all over me and my eyes were opened, so to speak.
Kind of strange that the fact that his eyes were opened as a Jew and from that mine were opened to the real reason that I have become a grafted in Jew...the only true Jews.

 

[Steeno7]

It's a very sad thing that it seems as though you have been mislead by some of the groups that are giving bad teaching leaving you to think they are all bad. Most of the really deep understanding I have been given by Jesus Christ came to me via observant Jews who've accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. They have spent all of their lives prior to getting saved practicing the types and shadows from Old Testament Scripture, then their eyes are opened by The Holy Ghost after Salvation they have a far deeper understanding of both old and new.
I am so very thankful to God that He led me to Zola Levitt shortly after I got saved. Zola was a very gentle hearted person who taught from the real roots of the tree that we have been grafted into. How I do cherish his teaching. When he spoke (and he crammed a lot into 30 minutes) The Holy Ghost was all over me and my eyes were opened, so to speak.
Kind of strange that the fact that his eyes were opened as a Jew and from that mine were opened to the real reason that I have become a grafted in Jew...the only true Jews.

It seems that it is not myself, but you, who have been mislead.

Let me just add that I used to listen and enjoy Zola back in the day myself. But Zola was not HRM. He considered himself a part of evangelical Christianity, albeit with his understandable emphasis on the Jewish background, as one who came out of Judaism.

The HRM's emphasis is on the continued obligation to keep the Mosaic Law. While Zola straight out would say that salvation delivers us from having to keep it. Zola taught that the covenant of Moses is inoperable today. That eating kosher is harmless but not required. That there is no need to keep Kashrut (the Jewish law of cleanliness). That no believer should literally observe the 4th commandment. That Gods Laws are not efficacious for salvation and that Christians do not need to become Torah observant.

All of which is central to HRM, but rejected by Zola.

 

[Frogster]

It's a very sad thing that it seems as though you have been mislead by some of the groups that are giving bad teaching leaving you to think they are all bad. Most of the really deep understanding I have been given by Jesus Christ came to me via observant Jews who've accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. They have spent all of their lives prior to getting saved practicing the types and shadows from Old Testament Scripture, then their eyes are opened by The Holy Ghost after Salvation they have a far deeper understanding of both old and new.
I am so very thankful to God that He led me to Zola Levitt shortly after I got saved. Zola was a very gentle hearted person who taught from the real roots of the tree that we have been grafted into. How I do cherish his teaching. When he spoke (and he crammed a lot into 30 minutes) The Holy Ghost was all over me and my eyes were opened, so to speak.
Kind of strange that the fact that his eyes were opened as a Jew and from that mine were opened to the real reason that I have become a grafted in Jew...the only true Jews.

There is no Jew or Greek in the body of Christ, Gal 3:28, Col 3:11. Rom 4;12 even says that he Jews who get saved, have to walk as Abraham did, pre-circumcision.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I have serious misgivings about the Hebrew Roots teaching. It does not seem to be from scripture or from holy tradition and it is not taught by the Catholic Church. In fact the idea that being of Jewish descent entitles one to salvation appears to be based almost entirely on poor exegesis of Romans chapter eleven and especially verses 1a, 2a, 25, 26a.

 

[jiminpa]

Hebrew Roots has nothing at all to do with being of Jewish decent. It is the recognition that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, and the realization that the Old Testament is as much scripture and valuable as the New Testament. Until Constantine, (the real first pope), founded the religion that was to become the Roman Catholic Church those who were called Christians were actually messianic believers,(Jews and Gentiles), who understood the foundation of Christianity. When Paul said that all scripture is God breathed the New Testament had not been compiled or even fully written, so he was referring to the Old Testament, and he called it profitable for doctrine, teaching and reproof. The lessons of the Old Testament pointed to the same God as New Testament, and the writers of the New Testament assumed an understanding of the scriptures in the writings that were to become the New Testament.

 

[Frogster]

look closely at the verses.

Peter was living as a gentile, plain as day. It even says not living as Jew, very clear verse.

Gal 2:14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?

Now we see how the other Jews were living as Gentiles too. Because for Peter to live as a gentile, then revert back to Judaism, and then for the other Jews to do as Peter did, to follow in his same footsteps, means that they had to be living as gentiles too, since they took the same course of action. "along with him", that would be along with Peter.

Gal 2:13 And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.


So, the Jewish Christians were all living as Gentiles, then Peter defected, then the rest, for all of them to do the same defection, means they were all doing the same thing before the defection, and that was living as gentiles. So they were not living out Judaism in Antioch.

 

[Frogster]

Gosh, Paul did not even go to temple for 17 years.

Gal 4:12. right from Paul! he too was not living out 'Jewish roots"


New Living Translation
Dear brothers and sisters, I plead with you to live as I do in freedom from these things, for I have become like you Gentiles--free from those laws. You did not mistreat me when I first preached to you.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I beg you, brothers: Become like me, for I also became like you. You have not wronged me;

Amplified Bible
4:12 Brethren, I beg of you, become as I am [free from the bondage of Jewish ritualism and ordinances], for I also have become as you are a Gentile]. You did me no wrong [in the days when I first came to you; do not do it now].

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I have serious misgivings about the Hebrew Roots teaching. It does not seem to be from scripture or from holy tradition and it is not taught by the Catholic Church. In fact the idea that being of Jewish descent entitles one to salvation appears to be based almost entirely on poor exegesis of Romans chapter eleven and especially verses 1a, 2a, 25, 26a.

Who teaches that? I've never heard that from any of the Hebrew Roots teachers I've listened to. Just like every other church, they have off shoots that are weird too. Also, it is my opinion that the Catholic church teaches a lot of things that cannot be found in scripture as well as it does not teach some things that are.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Hebrew Roots has nothing at all to do with being of Jewish decent. It is the recognition that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, and the realization that the Old Testament is as much scripture and valuable as the New Testament. Until Constantine, (the real first pope), founded the religion that was to become the Roman Catholic Church those who were called Christians were actually messianic believers,(Jews and Gentiles), who understood the foundation of Christianity. When Paul said that all scripture is God breathed the New Testament had not been compiled or even fully written, so he was referring to the Old Testament, and he called it profitable for doctrine, teaching and reproof. The lessons of the Old Testament pointed to the same God as New Testament, and the writers of the New Testament assumed an understanding of the scriptures in the writings that were to become the New Testament.

This is truth

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

It seems that it is not myself, but you, who have been mislead.

Let me just add that I used to listen and enjoy Zola back in the day myself. But Zola was not HRM. He considered himself a part of evangelical Christianity, albeit with his understandable emphasis on the Jewish background, as one who came out of Judaism.

The HRM's emphasis is on the continued obligation to keep the Mosaic Law. While Zola straight out would say that salvation delivers us from having to keep it. Zola taught that the covenant of Moses is inoperable today. That eating kosher is harmless but not required. That there is no need to keep Kashrut (the Jewish law of cleanliness). That no believer should literally observe the 4th commandment. That Gods Laws are not efficacious for salvation and that Christians do not need to become Torah observant.

All of which is central to HRM, but rejected by Zola.

No, it is you.

 

[Steeno7]

No, it is you.

Can God do a new thing?