heaven

[alien444]

If you go to heaven, but the person that you love the most in the world goes to hell-can u find eternal bliss or contentment knowing they will be suffering unspeakable tortures for eternity?

 

[ViaCrucis]

If you go to heaven, but the person that you love the most in the world goes to hell-can u find eternal bliss or contentment knowing they will be suffering unspeakable tortures for eternity?

I think this in part reveals, perhaps, some of the problems with the modernistic, popular imagining of "heaven" and "hell". Heaven as some blissful location up in the sky where angels strum harps on fluffy clouds, and Hell as some chasm in the earth with fire and devils with pitchforks prodding the damned in the bum.

That imagery is not only alien from the Bible, but is alien for most of Christian history. The start of such ideas really have their genesis in the West during the medieval era, and is informed far more by Dante and medieval art and drama rather than hard, serious theology and biblical exposition.

Sure enough the Bible on numerous occasions speaks of fire, gnashing of teeth, outer darkness, etc; such language is used to describe Gehenna, the "bad side" of She'ol or Hades; in contrast to Paradise, the "good side" of She'ol. That language also finds itself being used in St. John's Apocalypse when he speaks of a "lake of brimstone and fire" calling it the "second death"--but we must remember that the Apocalypse is just that, an apocalypse, and thus should be read apocalyptically, not literally.

But I think the need to dismantle popular notions of "heaven" and "hell" and parse through biblical language, with an ear to the historic theology of Christianity down through the ages can be quite beneficial. Because quote frankly the Bible just doesn't seem all that interested in telling us about either, and the Church in antiquity never seemed particularly interested in setting anything in stone (one will find the Church has produced many creeds, e.g. the Nicene Creed, the Definition of Chalcedon, etc) but while these creeds speak much about what is essential to the faith, they never talk about hell.

I realize that I have not yet addressed your question directly, and that's because I'm attempting to establish some context, and address that perhaps the nature of the question itself is informed by what I consider to be bad, or at least flawed and over-simplified theology.

I would here probably like to defer to former Bishop of Durham (Church of England) N.T. Wright,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vggzqXzEvZ0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIUc4Kng1SQ

Edited to add: I would also add that a good (and rather quite short) read is C.S. Lewis' The Great Divorce. It's a first person narrative of a sort of trip through hell and heaven where Lewis attempts to, in a sense, rattle the cage. It's not meant to be taken literally by any means, but it does do a good job in raising questions and provoking thought about what we mean by "Heaven" and "Hell". It's by no means the final say, but it is a great contributing voice to the ongoing conversation within the Church on such matters.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[alien444]

I think this in part reveals, perhaps, some of the problems with the modernistic, popular imagining of "heaven" and "hell". Heaven as some blissful location up in the sky where angels strum harps on fluffy clouds, and Hell as some chasm in the earth with fire and devils with pitchforks prodding the damned in the bum.

That imagery is not only alien from the Bible, but is alien for most of Christian history. The start of such ideas really have their genesis in the West during the medieval era, and is informed far more by Dante and medieval art and drama rather than hard, serious theology and biblical exposition.

Sure enough the Bible on numerous occasions speaks of fire, gnashing of teeth, outer darkness, etc; such language is used to describe Gehenna, the "bad side" of She'ol or Hades; in contrast to Paradise, the "good side" of She'ol. That language also finds itself being used in St. John's Apocalypse when he speaks of a "lake of brimstone and fire" calling it the "second death"--but we must remember that the Apocalypse is just that, an apocalypse, and thus should be read apocalyptically, not literally.

But I think the need to dismantle popular notions of "heaven" and "hell" and parse through biblical language, with an ear to the historic theology of Christianity down through the ages can be quite beneficial. Because quote frankly the Bible just doesn't seem all that interested in telling us about either, and the Church in antiquity never seemed particularly interested in setting anything in stone (one will find the Church has produced many creeds, e.g. the Nicene Creed, the Definition of Chalcedon, etc) but while these creeds speak much about what is essential to the faith, they never talk about hell.

I realize that I have not yet addressed your question directly, and that's because I'm attempting to establish some context, and address that perhaps the nature of the question itself is informed by what I consider to be bad, or at least flawed and over-simplified theology.

I would here probably like to defer to former Bishop of Durham (Church of England) N.T. Wright,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vggzqXzEvZ0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIUc4Kng1SQ

Thoughtful and interesting. Thanks


Edited to add: I would also add that a good (and rather quite short) read is C.S. Lewis' The Great Divorce. It's a first person narrative of a sort of trip through hell and heaven where Lewis attempts to, in a sense, rattle the cage. It's not meant to be taken literally by any means, but it does do a good job in raising questions and provoking thought about what we mean by "Heaven" and "Hell". It's by no means the final say, but it is a great contributing voice to the ongoing conversation within the Church on such matters.

-CryptoLutheran

Truly thoughtful and interesting. Thanks.

 

[aiki]

If you go to heaven, but the person that you love the most in the world goes to hell-can u find eternal bliss or contentment knowing they will be suffering unspeakable tortures for eternity?

Heaven is heaven because God is there, not because your loved ones are there. You don't really know God if you think He alone cannot be fully, eternally satisfying. Real joy, real heavenly joy, is not God + my friends and loved ones. It is God alone. The absence of even my most cherished loved one will pale to insignificance when I see my Saviour and Maker face-to-face.

God sends no one to hell who does not deserve to be there. God's justice is perfect and this will be seen when we witness His Final Judgment upon the wicked. We may not take joy in God's judgment of the wicked, but we will not think God unjust in His judgment. It will be clear to all that even though those we hold most dear are sent to hell, it is exactly where they ought to go.

Selah.

 

[alien444]

Heaven is heaven because God is there, not because your loved ones are there. You don't really know God if you think He alone cannot be fully, eternally satisfying. Real joy, real heavenly joy, is not God + my friends and loved ones. It is God alone. The absence of even my most cherished loved one will pale to insignificance when I see my Saviour and Maker face-to-face.

God sends no one to hell who does not deserve to be there. God's justice is perfect and this will be seen when we witness His Final Judgment upon the wicked. We may not take joy in God's judgment of the wicked, but we will not think God unjust in His judgment. It will be clear to all that even though those we hold most dear are sent to hell, it is exactly where they ought to go.

Selah.

I have a daughter whom I love unconditionally and whom I love much, much more than I love myself. If she decided to become a Muslim and deny Jesus as her savior she would spend eternity in hell (whatever you believe that to be). If I accepted Jesus as my savior and lived a life following his teachings I would spend eternity in heaven (whatever you believe that to be). It is difficult to imagine that how ever "satisfied" I am by my fate, I could forget my daughter's suffering.

 

[aiki]

Well, I think the assumption people make is that God alone cannot be entirely fulfilling and satisfying and thus heaven, in order to be truly heavenly, must incorporate other things. For many, this means that they look forward to heaven because of the expectation of seeing their loved ones there. In fact, this is a more attractive prospect to them than the thought that they will encounter their Maker face-to-face. But such thinking mistakes what makes heaven what it is. It is God Himself that makes heaven heavenly. And if God is truly who the Bible says He is, His glorious, loving, holy presence there will dissolve any sorrows we may have. As the Psalmist wrote,

Psa 73:25 Whom have I in heaven but you? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside you.


Selah.

 

[dhh712]

If you go to heaven, but the person that you love the most in the world goes to hell-can u find eternal bliss or contentment knowing they will be suffering unspeakable tortures for eternity?

I struggle with this myself because practically not any of my family are believers of God. Ultimately, I trust that God is just and merciful and that the faith I have does not depend on my ability to understand how this will work out and whether I will be happy being eternally with Him. I trust that I will be because that is what is taught in the Bible. Lots of times I think that just being with God can not possibly make me eternally happy--namely because there's this and this and this and that and this and that and the other that I need to have in order to make me happy!

Yet I am thinking about this from a worldly perspective. Like I just can't imagine me being happy forever without clouds, trees, rain, thunderstorms, mountains, books to read, and the ability to write books (and knowing about and have a relationship with a specific person). Yet that is because that is all I can understand now. I trust though, that what God has told me in the Bible and also the barest fraction that I have experienced of Him now in this world which I really can barely comprehend is what is true and not what I can understand now.

 

[Hawkins]

If you go to heaven, but the person that you love the most in the world goes to hell-can u find eternal bliss or contentment knowing they will be suffering unspeakable tortures for eternity?

You don't have to assume that such a kind of love persists after death. It may be gone with the release of your spirit. All kinds of love belong to God. There's no longer such a kind of love in hell/Hades. Your soul will carry your memories though.

Such a kind of love may not be in heaven either. There are the love for God and the love for everyone else as brothers and sisters.


Revelation 21:4
He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.

 

[bling]

I have a daughter whom I love unconditionally and whom I love much, much more than I love myself. If she decided to become a Muslim and deny Jesus as her savior she would spend eternity in hell (whatever you believe that to be). If I accepted Jesus as my savior and lived a life following his teachings I would spend eternity in heaven (whatever you believe that to be). It is difficult to imagine that how ever "satisfied" I am by my fate, I could forget my daughter's suffering.

First off: Hell is not eternal, but everyone thrown into hell is burned up (annihilated eventually, but there could be some suffering for a while).

Also: The people that do not go to heaven are those people that do not really want to be there, so does your daughter seek out and desire to be loved for how others perceive her to be or does she accept and seek out those that Love her in spite of what she has done and/or will do? Does she want to Love the unlovable?

Would your Daughter want you to join her in going to hell or prefer you went to heaven?

So are you honoring her wishes by going to heaven?

 

[Emmy]

Dear alien444. To go to heaven is to follow Jesus back to God. The Bible tells us what to do first: " Repent," and to be " Born Again." Jesus gives us good advice in Matthew 22: 35-40: " The first Commandment is: Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. The second is like it: Love our neighbour as we love ourselves." We do this by treating all we know and all we meet as we would love to be treated. That is straightforward,
and easy to remember. Here is what we do: we ask in Matthew 7: 7-10: for
Love and Joy, ( we pray for it) then we thank God, and share all Love and Joy with our neighbour: ( all around us) God will see our efforts, and God will approve and Bless us. We keep asking and thanking God for Love and Joy, then we share it with our neighbour. We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on loving and caring.
A Christian`s great weapon is Love, with love will overcome all evil and bad behaviour. Love is also very catching, and people around us will treat us the same, as we treat people. We will find that in a while we will gradually change into loving men and women. God is Love, and God wants Loving sons and daughters. You tell us about someone, whom you truly love and are very fond of. Remember that Love is very strong and also very catching.
Let your Love shine, first for God our Heavenly Father, and then for your dear friend ( neighbour). We know that Love is very catching and also very strong.
Tell God what you are hoping to achieve, and ask God for His help and guidance. Keep asking and loving and caring, and also Thanking God.
Heaven is where God is, ask Jesus our Saviour to lead you all the way:
JESUS IS THE WAY. I say this with love, alien. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[DennisTate]

If you go to heaven, but the person that you love the most in the world goes to hell-can u find eternal bliss or contentment knowing they will be suffering unspeakable tortures for eternity?

We Christians …. OK… we humans….. tend to think of time as being limited to being…… it is not!!!!!

Ezekiel chapter 37 can happen again and again and again and again…… as many times as the beings composed of fundamental energy wish to replicate any moment in what we think of as the past…… and then pour out a double portion of the Ruach ha Kodesh/ Holy Spirit…….. and spin off a new branch of time in which far more people are led to "salvation" but…… the rewards are lower……….. sort of????!!!!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

If you go to heaven, but the person that you love the most in the world goes to hell-can u find eternal bliss or contentment knowing they will be suffering unspeakable tortures for eternity?

alien444,

Well, if it were purely up to me upon entering heaven, I would admit that I would be quite disrupted in mind to find out that my wife wasn't there too.

However, the bible doesn't say that our happiness and/or state of mind will be contingent on our existence, current mindset. God Himself will transform us, and the pain that would otherwise accompany such a revelation will be either erased or mitigated by God. He would not let us suffer.

To look that this another way, your question strikes at the heart of one of the toughest issues that people in our current world have to face when considering the truth of Jesus as Christ. There is indeed a deep consideration to make when choosing to be a Christian and following Christ.

Some of this is reflected in the hyperbolic statement that Jesus made to the multitudes: "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple...(etc.)" (Luke 14:26-27.

 

[DennisTate]

alien444,

Well, if it were purely up to me upon entering heaven, I would admit that I would be quite disrupted in mind to find out that my wife wasn't there too.

However, the bible doesn't say that our happiness and/or state of mind will be contingent on our existence, current mindset. God Himself will transform us, and the pain that would otherwise accompany such a revelation will be either erased or mitigated by God. He would not let us suffer.

To look that this another way, your question strikes at the heart of one of the toughest issues that people in our current world have to face when considering the truth of Jesus as Christ. There is indeed a deep consideration to make when choosing to be a Christian and following Christ.

Some of this is reflected in the hyperbolic statement that Jesus made to the multitudes: "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple...(etc.)" (Luke 14:26-27.

In my opinion this is an exceptionally good answer to this question!

I would love to get your reaction to what near death experiencer and former atheist Howard Storm was shown regarding what was going on behind the scenes during the time of the Nazi holocaust on the Jewish people?

…….
Howard Storm:
"I asked how God could let the Holocaust of World War II happen. We were transported to a railway station as a long train of freight cars was being unloaded of its human cargo. The guards were screaming and beating the people into submission. The people were Jewish men, women, and children. Exhausted from hunger and thirst, they were totally disoriented from the ordeal of being rounded up and sent on a long journey to an unknown destination. They believed that they were going to work camps, and that their submission to the brutality of the guards was the only way to survive.

We went to the area where the selection process was taking place and heard the guards talking about "the Angel Maker." We went to the place the guards were referring to as "the Angel Maker," which was a series of ovens. I saw piles of naked corpses being loaded into the ovens, and I began to cry. ...."These are the people God loves." Then he said, "Look up." Rising out of the smoke of the chimneys, I saw hundreds of people being met by thousands of angels taking them up into the sky. There was great joy in the faces of the people, and there appeared to be no trace of a memory of the horrendous suffering they had just endured. How ironic that the guards sarcastically called the ovens "the Angel Maker."
...
I asked how God could allow this to happen. They told me that this was not God's will. This was an abomination to God. God wants this never to happen again. This was the sacrifice of an innocent people to whom God had given the law to be an example, a light, to the rest of the world. This Holocaust was breaking God's heart...."

I asked, Why does God let things like this happen? They told me that God was very unhappy with the course of human history and was going to intervene to change the world. God had watched us sink to depths of depravity and cruelty at the very time that he was giving us the instruments to make the world a godlier world. God had intervened in the world many times before, but this time God was going to change the course of human events."(Howard Storm, My Descent Into Death, page 42,43)…
…
… II Corinthians 12:2-4:

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

Romans 11:32
"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!"

 

[2PhiloVoid]

In my opinion this is an exceptionally good answer to this question!

I would love to get your reaction to what near death experiencer and former atheist Howard Storm was shown regarding what was going on behind the scenes during the time of the Nazi holocaust on the Jewish people?

…….
Howard Storm:
"I asked how God could let the Holocaust of World War II happen. We were transported to a railway station as a long train of freight cars was being unloaded of its human cargo. The guards were screaming and beating the people into submission. The people were Jewish men, women, and children. Exhausted from hunger and thirst, they were totally disoriented from the ordeal of being rounded up and sent on a long journey to an unknown destination. They believed that they were going to work camps, and that their submission to the brutality of the guards was the only way to survive.

We went to the area where the selection process was taking place and heard the guards talking about "the Angel Maker." We went to the place the guards were referring to as "the Angel Maker," which was a series of ovens. I saw piles of naked corpses being loaded into the ovens, and I began to cry. ...."These are the people God loves." Then he said, "Look up." Rising out of the smoke of the chimneys, I saw hundreds of people being met by thousands of angels taking them up into the sky. There was great joy in the faces of the people, and there appeared to be no trace of a memory of the horrendous suffering they had just endured. How ironic that the guards sarcastically called the ovens "the Angel Maker."
...
I asked how God could allow this to happen. They told me that this was not God's will. This was an abomination to God. God wants this never to happen again. This was the sacrifice of an innocent people to whom God had given the law to be an example, a light, to the rest of the world. This Holocaust was breaking God's heart...."

I asked, Why does God let things like this happen? They told me that God was very unhappy with the course of human history and was going to intervene to change the world. God had watched us sink to depths of depravity and cruelty at the very time that he was giving us the instruments to make the world a godlier world. God had intervened in the world many times before, but this time God was going to change the course of human events."(Howard Storm, My Descent Into Death, page 42,43)…
…
… II Corinthians 12:2-4:

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

Romans 11:32
"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!"

Dennis,

While I appreciate the anecdote about Howard Storm that you've shared with me, and my heart goes out to the victims of the Holocaust, nevertheless, I respectfully decline to comment. I say this because I'm sure that my viewpoint on the matter, which extends from a decisively different interpretation on this bit of history (and it might be incorrect), might not be very palatable.

Please know that I appreciate your response, and God bless you.

Peace

 

[MLEN]

If you go to heaven, but the person that you love the most in the world goes to hell-can u find eternal bliss or contentment knowing they will be suffering unspeakable tortures for eternity?

The person I love most is Jesus, and he will be in Heaven. But if we are talking about someone on earth whom I deeply care for (like my husband and children) my earnest prayer is that they too will remain in a loving relationship with Jesus so that we can all be there.

 

[DennisTate]

Dennis,

While I appreciate the anecdote about Howard Storm that you've shared with me, and my heart goes out to the victims of the Holocaust, nevertheless, I respectfully decline to comment. I say this because I'm sure that my viewpoint on the matter, which extends from a decisively different interpretation on this bit of history (and it might be incorrect), might not be very palatable.

Please know that I appreciate your response, and God bless you.

Peace

Again……. this is a good answer………. because it is wise to remain silent on a subject as potentially controversial as this!

I am glad to have put the bug in your ear though because I believe that the Holy Spirit will bring this to your attention in the future……… and give you a response that will reach people who you might not have been able to reach if you had not faced this.

In a nutshell……………. I believe that it is difficult to see the Word/Logos arising in ancient King Cyrus of Persia………. as elaborated on in Isaiah chapters 42 to 46 and how this relates to the full role of Messiah Jesus/ Yeshua!

A writer from Uganda has done a rather exceptional article on the topic that I have found to be helpful?!

…..

Eporu Ronald Alfred

Kakira Deliverance Church,
P.O. Box 3191, Kakira, Jinja, Uganda

......

Dear brethren,
I salute you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ!

RE: SHARING NEW DISCOVERIES OF THE TRUTH IN BIBLE PROPHECY CONCERNING THE IMMINENT HEALING AND UNITY OF THE CHURCH

I am mesmerized by the truth in bible prophecy that the Spirit of God has been revealing over the recent years. Secret things belong to God and those that are revealed belong to us and our children... (Deut 29: 29).

1. King Cyrus the great ruled his country 555 years Before Christ i.e. from 576 BC to 530 BC and authorised the rebuilding of the second temple in Jerusalem. Cyrus of the Old Testament is hence associated with the number 555 and is the shadow figure of incoming Cyrus II of the New Testament. You may learn more about his history from the internet and scriptures. This new truth enables us to identify the leadership of the world that will rebuild the temple in Jerusalem as prophesied in book of Isaiah before the rise of antichrist. Cyrus II is coming to revive the evangelical/Pentecostal church in Jerusalem and restore the headquarters of the church in same city where the church was born. He is set to strip Babylon of the vessels of the temple and the name of the Lord God and transfer that crown back to Jerusalem thus leaving Babylon naked. Cyrus will rebuild the temple in Jerusalem in fulfilment of the prophecy of Jesus as written in the book of John 2:18-23 and the prophecy of Isaiah as written in chapters 40, 41, 45 and 47 of the book of Isaiah. Jesus regarded the temple as the symbol of his own body while saying that he had the power to lay it down on the first day (1st millennium) and rebuild or raise it up on the 3rd day (3rd millennium). Remember that one day in the eyes of God is the same as one thousand years (millennium) as stated in book of 2 Peter 3:8. Rebuilding of the temple is thus associated with unification of the church.

Cyrus II will rebuild the temple in honour of our lord Jesus Christ. The temple will be the unifying (rallying) point of the world wide evangelical church as the original headquarters of the church. Psalms133 denotes that there is such a powerful anointing that comes along with unity among brethren. Unification of the whole body of Jesus Christ will make the church so powerful that she will overrun the world within a short time before the return of our lord Jesus Christ. A divided church is a powerless church whereas a united church is a powerful church. The church can only be able to fulfil her ultimate mission of revealing Jesus to the world once we get united as one body of Jesus Christ following his last prayer for his disciples as written in John 17:20-23.

Cyrus II will erase that false image of Jesus that the counterfeit and Idolatrous state church of Babylon has been projecting around the world and revive the original church that projects the true brilliant image of Jesus Christ. Haggai 2:9 says that the glory of the latter church (temple) will be greater than the glory of the former church (temple).The rise of Cyrus will also usher in the ultimate fulfilment of the prophecy of Joel 2:28 where God intends to pour out His Spirit on all flesh in these last days. The era of Cyrus brings the gentile period of grace to its close and leads to the restoration of the Jewish period of grace and salvation.

(Eporu Ronald Alfred)

…..

Basically……. if the Word/Logos can hold a Gentile flawed human king….. by the right hand……… then obviously God is arising within non-Christians at a level that will surprise us when we finally are shown all the mysteries.


BLB - Isa 45: The Major Prophet Isaiah 45 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)
Isa 45:1
¶
"Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;…….
…..
….Isa 45:4
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

 

[alien444]

First off: Hell is not eternal, but everyone thrown into hell is burned up (annihilated eventually, but there could be some suffering for a while).

What is the theological foundation for your claim that hell is not eternal? I thought it was pretty much a settled issue in Christianity.

Also: The people that do not go to heaven are those people that do not really want to be there, so does your daughter seek out and desire to be loved for how others perceive her to be or does she accept and seek out those that Love her in spite of what she has done and/or will do? Does she want to Love the unlovable?

Would your Daughter want you to join her in going to hell or prefer you went to heaven?

So are you honoring her wishes by going to heaven?

The problem is that I am not really concerned with what my daughter wants for me. I am concerned about her well-being far above my own, therefore unless my memories or emotions for her are "removed" somehow in heaven then I don't understand how I could be happy, blissful, etc.

 

[bling]

The problem is that I am not really concerned with what my daughter wants for me. I am concerned about her well-being far above my own, therefore unless my memories or emotions for her are "removed" somehow in heaven then I don't understand how I could be happy, blissful, etc.

It is wonderful you show so much concern for your daughter, so if you have not proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that God could not exist, you would fully desire your daughter to have the best opportunity to go to heaven if heaven might exist since it is eternal?

How can you be fully concerned for daughter and not also be concerned for her wishes (what would give her comfort)?

Unconditional Love is very concerned for the good desires and wishes of others, so is her desire for your happiness bad for her?

She might not want to go to heaven without you, but would you be happy if she went, even if you did not?

You might take comfort while here on earth in believing the Christian God does not exists, but do you want your daughter to share your comfort if God does exist?

This world is full of tragedies, especially those that die unsaved, yet through their earthly existence they can help others to become saved even in spite of their actions. This is tough for you to imagine and from your position I would think the same way.

What is the theological foundation for your claim that hell is not eternal? I thought it was pretty much a settled issue in Christianity.

1. Eternal torture is not taught in Scripture in original languages.


2. God is not a revengeful monster who will torture the lost forever in terrible and horrendous pain that will never cease.


3. The Bible says the lost and Satan will turn to ashes and be destroyed! Heb 2:14, (Psalm 145:20); they will die (Ezekiel 18:4); they will perish (John 3:16); they will be cut off (Psalm 37:28); they will be consumed (Psalm 37:20); they will be burned up (Psalm 97:3); and they shall be no more (Psalm 37:10, Oba 1:16).


4. The Koine Greek word "aionios" is used in Revelation 20:10 and Matthew 25:46 and has been translated forever and ever! But in Koine Greek it doesn't mean endless at all! The term "forever, eternal, everlasting" as used in the Bible, means simply a period of time, limited or unlimited. It is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended.


5. Immortality is the key. And only the saved will get it! Hence, the lost wont get it and will DIE and not LIVE in some fire. If people were to burn in fire forever, that would mean they are given immortality as well, but this contradicts 1Cor 15:53 and 1 John 5:12! And only the saved will have access to the tree of life in heaven! The lost wont and so hence, cannot live forever in some fire. Surely you are not claiming the lost will be given immortality and live forever without access to the tree of life?


6. Read about the city of Edom in Isa 34:6-11 It says Edom was to burn forever and never be quenched! But its NOT burning today and in fact in verse 11 it says it will be occupied again after this so called forever FIRE! The problem lies in English translations, and eternal and forever and ever, does not always mean endless in the Bible.


Is EDOM burning today? NO! English translation says forever, but the original language it doesn't say or mean forever as you can clearly see that the next verse says it will be occupied again. How is that possible if v10 was to be taken literally as eternal fire etc... Think about it!


In Isa 34:10 it says the smoke from the fire on Edom will rise forever and never be quenched! Is this smoke rising today? NO it is not as Edom is in ashes today!


7. Eternal hellfire stems from Devils first lie[Gen 3:4], then came pagan philosophy, Jewish apostasies, Catholicism then protestantism, and it's not biblical at all!


Suffice to say, in the Hebrew and Greek, Sheol[Hebrew] and Hades,Tartaroo and Gehenna[Greek] is a place of death, darkness & silence. In other words, the grave! But the English word "Hell" means an eternal burning place of agony! But in the original Hebrew/Greek, there is no such word as "hell".


The Bible does talk about degrees of punishment so there would be different degrees of punishment after death for those that do not repent, but everyone will eventually be burned up.


What about God not loving everyone enough to bring them to heaven?

There are people that have had all the opportunities they need to accept Godly type Love, but they will never accept (only God would know when these people reached this point.) Some people just do not like to humble themselves enough to accept pure charity and really would not like to have an unselfish type Love (they like to love and be loved for who they are). So these people would not be happy in heaven where there is one huge Love feast only of this Godly type Love. God will not force His Love on people and does not want his Children unhappy.

Children after they have shown an unwillness to accept God’s Love actually take on a lesser purpose of helping others that can still accept God’s help to accept God’s help.

God’s jealousy is not like a human type of Jealousy (selfishly desiring a “love” we do not deserve). With God, we are foolishly throwing our love away and on objects that hurt us to “love” and will not help to Love like if we Love God. God is “jealous” for our sake and showing how great His Love is for us.