Heaven??? Why would you want to go to there??

[ASLER86]

Instead, your God is a slave to the system that he created. His "unconditional love" is very conditional--conditional to a belief during a very short period of time. Say what you want, but that's not love. Love is doing everything in one's power to prevent harm. If God is omnipotent, then He can prevent harm any time He chooses. The fact that the Christian God does not do so either proves that He doesn't love us unconditionally or proves that He does not exist.

His love is unconditional in the fact that a sinner, an imperfect person, someone who has slandered God can be forgiven. THAT is God's unconditional love.
Unconditional love is the love that sent Christ to the cross to die a gruesome death for us, the humans who had turned away and sinned against him. Christ didn't have to die, He could have let himself down off the cross, but He didn't. He died a gruesome death so that we may have life.

I ask this to any person here--is there anybody who could stand to watch his most beloved person be tormented? Parents, could you stand by while your child was burned over and over again? Would it matter to you what your beloved's "crime" had been? Think about this: what you're ascribing to your God is that He knows that people are tormented, people he is purported to love...and yet He does nothing. If God is perfect, that means that he can't be miserable, right? And if He's not miserable knowing that His creations are calling out for His help, then He's a monster.

No, your right it would be hard. That's why I try to tell others about the love of Christ.

God has done something, he sent himself down to earth to suffer and die for us. If that's not love, I don't know what is.

The reason why we have to believe in God, to accept that Christ was the Messiah, is that through Christ we are made perfect in God's eyes, He forgives our sins so that we may enter Heaven.
As much as God loves us, we can't enter Heaven full of sin.

I think God's heart cries everytime someone turns away from Him, he wants us to accept Him, but we turn away.
God has also given us free will, and with free will comes choice and with our choices comes responsibilities.

As far as life in Heaven is going to be concerned, it will be awesome, in Heaven, ourselves but without our worldly imperfections or desires. We will not miss our worldy pleasures, because we will have other pleasures in Heaven. Imagine being able to walk and talk with the One who created us, learning everything that we ever wanted to learn, playing games, and worshiping the One who created us.

 

[HazyRigby]

His love is unconditional in the fact that a sinner, an imperfect person, someone who has slandered God can be forgiven. THAT is God's unconditional love.
Unconditional love is the love that sent Christ to the cross to die a gruesome death for us, the humans who had turned away and sinned against him. Christ didn't have to die, He could have let himself down off the cross, but He didn't. He died a gruesome death so that we may have life.

So what you're saying is that God's love isn't unconditional. Fine. A "love" that causes someone to be in torment is not any love that I recognize. I've got news for you--many, many, MANY humans have died a gruesome death. Many, in fact, have died selflessly, in defense of others. How much more of a sacrifice is it for one mortal man to die for a friend than it is for an immortal being to give up a body for all of mankind?

No, your right it would be hard. That's why I try to tell others about the love of Christ.

"Hard"? It would be "hard"? Hard to watch your child be set on fire eternally? Let me ask you a question: if you created a furnace, set up the system under which people would be burned there, and then allowed people to go there, who would be at fault? The people who broke the (impossible) rules, or the being who created the furnace and the system and allowed people to burn there? If I torment a killer, it doesn't make his crime any less real. Vengeance is not the action of an omnibenevolent deity.

God has done something, he sent himself down to earth to suffer and die for us. If that's not love, I don't know what is.

How about a mortal man dying for his children? And it's not love when the system you set up guarantees that a majority of people who are born will burn eternally.

The reason why we have to believe in God, to accept that Christ was the Messiah, is that through Christ we are made perfect in God's eyes, He forgives our sins so that we may enter Heaven.
As much as God loves us, we can't enter Heaven full of sin.

Again...it's a system HE supposedly set up. If HE set up the system, he agrees with what is happening.

As far as life in Heaven is going to be concerned, it will be awesome, in Heaven, ourselves but without our worldly imperfections or desires. We will not miss our worldy pleasures, because we will have other pleasures in Heaven.

Then you won't be you. You'll be an automaton. Because without your worldly imprefections and desires, you aren't a human being.

 

[FadingWhispers3]

Then you won't be you. You'll be an automaton. Because without your worldly imprefections and desires, you aren't a human being.

Not at all. For Adam and Eve had partaken of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. The results of that cannot be revoked. The only difference is that people will eat of the fruit of the tree of life thereafter.

It is said that the truth will set people free. Now to be free does not mean merely only to do what is right, although that is what pleases God, but also the possibility to do other stuff as well.

 

[HazyRigby]

Not at all. For Adam and Eve had partaken of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. The results of that cannot be revoked. The only difference is that people will eat of the fruit of the tree of life thereafter.

Uh huh.

It is said that the truth will set people free. Now to be free does not mean merely only to do what is right, although that is what pleases God, but also the possibility to do other stuff as well.

So we can make love in heaven? How, without our bodies? How do you propose to read a good book or drink a cup of cocoa while discorporeal?

 

[Fineous_Reese]

Um, that's not exactly the point. If, as you say, God will prove on Judgement Day that Bob does not in fact believe in him, that does not change the fact that God is considering only one piece of information about Bob -- whether or not Bob actively believes in him. Any other information is irrelevant in this story.

sorry if i wasn't clear, i wasn't talking about whether or not Bob "actively" (what's that mean anyway?) believes in God as that's not what Bob will be judged on. i'm saying that Bob knows God is real and willfully rejected Him. each time Bob pipes up with a "But!" God will re-but and Bob will be shown how Bob was deluding himself and willfully rejecting God. it's not going to be fun for anyone including God He really does want everyone to be saved.

 

[FadingWhispers3]

So we can make love in heaven? How, without our bodies? How do you propose to read a good book or drink a cup of cocoa while discorporeal?

No worries. Heaven will not be a bodiless existence. ]

"If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised....But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep... " 1 Corinthians 15:13

Is it said that the Christ was discorporeal? And yet he had enough body to break bread and eat it. Likewise, if the Christ is raised bodily, so too will the resurrection to come.

 

[ASLER86]

So what you're saying is that God's love isn't unconditional. Fine. A "love" that causes someone to be in torment is not any love that I recognize. I've got news for you--many, many, MANY humans have died a gruesome death. Many, in fact, have died selflessly, in defense of others. How much more of a sacrifice is it for one mortal man to die for a friend than it is for an immortal being to give up a body for all of mankind?

We're talking about God, not humans. God who CHOSE to die a gruesome death. He didn't have to die for us, he could of just decided to screw his creation over (and then he would be the kind of God that you have tried to describe) but He didn't screw us over, He, God of the universe CHOSE to die a gruesome death so that our sins might be atoned for and that we could be reconciled with Him.

There is sin, there is evil in the world, but did God create it? That is THE question.
Who tempted Adam and Eve? Satan, aka Lucifer, the fallen angel, the one rebelled against God and was cast out of Heaven.
Who sinned against God? Adam and Eve
-and as punishment they were cast out of the Garden of Eden,
into the world where they would experience pain and suffering. It
is because Adam and Eve fell to temptation and sinned, not God.

Therefore we live in a sinful world, and we need Christ to free us from that.

Therefore, humankind has sinned, humankind has taken the free will that God has given us, and they use it the way they want to use it. With free will comes choice, and with choice comes responsibility.

If you want to blame someone for casting loved ones into hell, don't blame God. Satan caused temptation, and then we fall.

"Hard"? It would be "hard"? Hard to watch your child be set on fire eternally? Let me ask you a question: if you created a furnace, set up the system under which people would be burned there, and then allowed people to go there, who would be at fault? The people who broke the (impossible) rules, or the being who created the furnace and the system and allowed people to burn there? If I torment a killer, it doesn't make his crime any less real. Vengeance is not the action of an omnibenevolent deity.

Of course it would be hard, I said it didn't I? I have family members who are unbelievers.

God's rules aren't completely impossible! We all sin, but it is through Christ that our sins are forgiven and we are made clean before God. Christ covers our sin so we can appear clean and sinless on Judgement Day so that we may enter the Kingdom of God. If we have Christ as our Savior, then all is forgiven.

And it's not love when the system you set up guarantees that a majority of people who are born will burn eternally.

Again...it's a system HE supposedly set up. If HE set up the system, he agrees with what is happening.

It doesn't have to be the majority of people burning eternally.

Yes, He made us, He created us in His image, then we sinned and fell away, we turned our backs. Are we responsible for our actions or God? (this goes back to free will)

Then you won't be you. You'll be an automaton. Because without your worldly imprefections and desires, you aren't a human being.

Of course I would still be me, and the same goes with everyone else. Except I would be perfect. For those in Heaven, all differences are cast aside. I could eat whatever I wanted without getting sick (I'm allergic to almost anything by the way), those who are crippled will walk, the paralyzed will feel, the blind will see, we will all be able to interact with eachother...we will be able to understand eachother's languages, there will be no pain, no fighting, no sadness.
By referring to worldly desires, in Heaven our priorities will be different. We will feel only joy and happiness, and we will fellowship with God and worship Him. We will all have the "good life" with no worries.
Of course we will still be us, just without our sinful human nature.

 

[Fineous_Reese]

So what you're saying is that God's love isn't unconditional. Fine. A "love" that causes someone to be in torment is not any love that I recognize.

(here's an example of "willfully rejecting")

actually, it's good that not be recognized as love since it's not. love is what God shows us as He worked to save us from the torment we've caused and earned ourselves.

I've got news for you--many, many, MANY humans have died a gruesome death. Many, in fact, have died selflessly, in defense of others. How much more of a sacrifice is it for one mortal man to die for a friend than it is for an immortal being to give up a body for all of mankind?

that is indeed a mystery, doesn't reduce the magnificence any though.

"Hard"? It would be "hard"? Hard to watch your child be set on fire eternally? Let me ask you a question: if you created a furnace, set up the system under which people would be burned there, and then allowed people to go there, who would be at fault? The people who broke the (impossible) rules, or the being who created the furnace and the system and allowed people to burn there? If I torment a killer, it doesn't make his crime any less real. Vengeance is not the action of an omnibenevolent deity.

answer, the people would be at fault because they broke the (impossible) rules. especially since the omnibenevolent deity gave them a way to avoid the furnace and they've rejected it.

How about a mortal man dying for his children? And it's not love when the system you set up guarantees that a majority of people who are born will burn eternally.

it's love when you give a way to avoid burning eternally even at great cost to yourself.

Again...it's a system HE supposedly set up. If HE set up the system, he agrees with what is happening.

Then you won't be you. You'll be an automaton. Because without your worldly imprefections and desires, you aren't a human being.

only based on your imperfect definition of "human being"

 

[Wonderfulcross]

We grow weary of work and desire change. Relationships become stagnant and the remedy is often change. The universe is alive with change. An ever expanding universe. The birth and destruction of countless stars and galaxies is a testament to change.

First of all, the universe is not ever expanding. it has a beginning and an end. (very new science, came out around 4 years ago.)
In response to your intended question, would you rather spend an eternity in Heaven or Hell? Those are your two choises so chose wisely. Also, why wouldn't you want to be in Heaven? There is no pain, no sorrow, no death, and you get to spend time with the Almighty God. What could be better than that?

 

[hartmanpeter]

First of all, the universe is not ever expanding. it has a beginning and an end. (very new science, came out around 4 years ago.)
In response to your intended question, would you rather spend an eternity in Heaven or Hell? Those are your two choises so chose wisely. Also, why wouldn't you want to be in Heaven? There is no pain, no sorrow, no death, and you get to spend time with the Almighty God. What could be better than that?

"Turns out that the most distant Type 1a supernovae are moving away much faster then closer ones, suggesting that the universe's expansion is actually accelerating, not decelerating."

"Most cosmologists, however, have hopped on the accelerating universe train."

http://www.astronomytoday.com/cosmology/quintessence.html

But I'm sure you'd find the opposite somewhere. Suffice to say, I believe in the expanding universe theory.

I don't believe Heaven and Hell are my two choices. My question was a hypothetical one. I should have stressed that. And I think I've already explained why I wouldn't want to go to Heaven. I get that there's no pain and so on and so forth, but eternity without change seems unnatural.

 

[elman]

By your understanding, you consider Heaven the lesser of two evils?

Of course not. Life is not evil. Life is good. Death is not good.

 

[Wonderfulcross]

I get that there's no pain and so on and so forth, but eternity without change seems unnatural.[/QUOTE]

Why would you want a place that is perfect to change? Would you want to live in a place where you could die, be mentally hurt, or have to think? Any reasonable person would choose a perfect place rather than a harmful place.

 

[Wyno_Punk]

Heaven doesn't sound very appealing when you are supposed to praise someone for eternity. On the other hand we can serve Christ through the things we do. When I skateboard sometimes, I give the time I spend doing it to God. Praise is easy, doing the things you love to do, but doing it for the Lord. In the Bible it speaks of how God has prepared a place for us; I imagine my place as a skate park, where I can chill all day, doing something I love, and doing it for the Lord.

 

[seebs]

We live in a world of constant flux. Our lives revolve around the desire of change. We change our hair and our clothes. We change our furniture. We change our wants. We grow weary of work and desire change. Relationships become stagnant and the remedy is often change. The universe is alive with change. An ever expanding universe. The birth and destruction of countless stars and galaxies is a testament to change. In this world of constant change, why would we yearn for an eternity of utter boredom in heaven? To worship and praise an almighty being for ever and ever hardly seems plausible to me. Why do we choose to believe in heaven? A place that goes against our being and our existence. God created us in his own image. All that exist was created by God. This world of change was created in flux. Are we to believe that our final destination is this Heaven? Are we to believe that God would create such a place that goes against the nature of his creation, the nature of man?

What makes you think Heaven will be "boring"?

 

[hartmanpeter]

I get that there's no pain and so on and so forth, but eternity without change seems unnatural.

Why would you want a place that is perfect to change? Would you want to live in a place where you could die, be mentally hurt, or have to think? Any reasonable person would choose a perfect place rather than a harmful place. [/QUOTE]

I believe a perfect places would have to have change. Death and pain are not the only things in life that cause change. Let's get pass the negative (althought I still hold to the fact that these things are needed. A Death is a transitions. It is not negative unless you perceive it to be.) I'm not looking for a harmful place. I'm looking for a place that isn't stagnant. I'm not choosing between Heaven abd Hell here. I'm simply asking about Heaven. If Heaven exist, why would you want to go there. Please don't tell me just to avoid Hell.

 

[hartmanpeter]

Heaven doesn't sound very appealing when you are supposed to praise someone for eternity. On the other hand we can serve Christ through the things we do. When I skateboard sometimes, I give the time I spend doing it to God. Praise is easy, doing the things you love to do, but doing it for the Lord. In the Bible it speaks of how God has prepared a place for us; I imagine my place as a skate park, where I can chill all day, doing something I love, and doing it for the Lord.

I understand what you mean. I'm with you on that. Praise can be done through actions and not only song or dance.

 

[ASLER86]

I understand what you mean. I'm with you on that. Praise can be done through actions and not only song or dance.

Yeah...thats right. We praise God through our every words and actions, not just for an hour in church every Sunday.
In worshipping God we can also get an idea of what Heaven will be like, its like a taste of the Kingdom of God now...

Also, don't believe in God just to avoid hell, we shouldn't want to go to hell, but it is more important that we want to go to Heaven and we come to a realization that God is real and that He loves us. We praise God not merely out of fear, but out of love for the One who created us and the One who died for us.

Have an awesome day all,
ASLER86

 

[yourstrulyjulie]

sometimes I wonder this myself, but after I think about it a while I realize that the reason it sounds boring is because we can't grasp the idea of complete happiness without sickness or pain forever. With Christians we want to go to heaven to forever be with God. I read somewhere that hell isn't about the torture, it is eternal separation of God.

 

[ASLER86]

With Christians we want to go to heaven to forever be with God. I read somewhere that hell isn't about the torture, it is eternal separation of God.

I've heard that too, and I guess no one can say for sure what hell will be like, and the same is with heaven.

Speaking of which, I turned on the tv yesterday and the simpsons were on....I didn't see the whole show...but them reciting in Sunday School about them going to hell to be tortured...that and how that flanders character and the pastor is portrayed....
no wonder some think Christians are weirdos...

lol.

 

[blackwasp]

Heaven??? Why would you want to go to there??

I apologize if I am reiterating someone else's point, but I didn't read through all of the posts. Regardless, the question you post is quite valid, and I believe it points towards a sovereign God. No one (by choice) would want to go to heaven to worship God for eternity, unless they are regenerated by the Spirit.