Heaven??? Why would you want to go to there??

[hartmanpeter]

Oh don't leave me hanging brother!

Oh ok...

HIGH FIVE!! oops, missed.

Again: High FIVE!

[pong] [/pong]

 

[ASLER86]

Thank you Asler86. Thank you Observer. Thank you all of you, mostly. I think I've gotten my answer. The little information that I believed about Heaven isn't really information at all. The truth is, I have no idea how Heaven will be like. I'm trying to understand it through human eyes, and a human mind. God made me and I'd have to trust that he knows what he's doing. Again, thank you all for your time. It's been fun and educational. Now all I have to do is start believing in heaven and God. But that's a topic for a different thread. One that already exist, I believe, right Spyr?

Your welcome hartmanpeter, its been fun



About believing in God (this is to you too Spyr), you don't have to be perfect and know all the answers in order to believe in God, you just believe! I'd be scared if I understood the infalliable perfect and all-knowing God, he is so big our human minds can't comprehend him as a whole. I believe in God because what his love has done for me and the fact that he made me, and in all of my imperfections he still loves me, that is what is so awesome about Him!!



I wasn't perfect and I didnt have all of the answers when I came to know Christ as my Savior, and I still don't have all of the answers. I will when I get to heaven though ( ;



Even though I can't see God, I see what He has done. The trees, the animals, the beautiful sunset on a fall day, the intricies of the human body, how our heart and lungs work, how our bodies digest food, how a human being is formed inside the womb--it just can't be an accident, we can't be an accident!! God created us all with our different personalities, talents, etc because he wants a colorful world. (we'll leave the topic of evil for another day, Spyr--*grin*)



A wise apologist once said that we can't see God, but rather we see the effects of God--its like the wind, we can't see the wind but rather we see the effects of the wind on the trees and on me as I'm struggling to walk *grins* (that last part was a joke lol)

I know that you'll groan at this, but I want to share a verse with you:

Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see"

I'd encourage you to read the rest of that chapter...it's called the "faith chapter" you can access it with on online Bible if you don't have one.



That's enough talking with me, I can't claim to have all the answers, but if you ever want to talk about any of this let me know ( :

God Bless you all,

ASLER86

 

[Fineous_Reese]

People dont want change, they want consistancy. NO ONE wants to have thier world constantly changing.

That is completely unfounded because I do want my world to be constantly changing and I know many others who want that as well.

so basically, the consistancy that Spyr wants is constant change. that doesn't contradict the gist of what Antoninus Verus said, AV just made the wrong assumption about everyone not wanting constant change. Spyr has shown that consistancy is something that is desired.

 

[Fineous_Reese]

But Matt, God ignores many things about Bob in your story that he should not. He ignores the possibility that Bob would like to know about God, but sees no evidence that He exists. He ignores the possibility that Bob has misunderstood God in some way, and that Bob now realizes his error and repents. He ignores the fact that He could simply place the necessary understanding in Bob's mind, and that this would not violate Bob's free will any more than sending Bob to a place of torment in which he has no free will.

I could go on, but my point is that when you tell Bob's story, you're ignoring Bob's input. You decided that certain things were true of Bob and that certain unpleasant things must therefore happen to Bob -- without bothering to take into account any information about Bob whatsoever except for one single, quite undescriptive fact: Bob does not actively believe that God exists.

Matt's story may have glossed over these points but don't worry, they'll be addressed. When Bob (or whomever) stands in front of that throne they'll be shown every piece of evidence that pointed towards God and their need for salvation and how they willfully rejected it. But hey, no one has to believe me, they are free to willfully reject this too.

 

[Spyr]

so basically, the consistancy that Spyr wants is constant change. that doesn't contradict the gist of what Antoninus Verus said, AV just made the wrong assumption about everyone not wanting constant change. Spyr has shown that consistancy is something that is desired.

But what Anoninus was trying to emphasize is that people want a non-changing world. Consistancy wasn't his point.

 

[Spyr]

Your welcome hartmanpeter, its been fun



About believing in God (this is to you too Spyr), you don't have to be perfect and know all the answers in order to believe in God, you just believe! I'd be scared if I understood the infalliable perfect and all-knowing God, he is so big our human minds can't comprehend him as a whole. I believe in God because what his love has done for me and the fact that he made me, and in all of my imperfections he still loves me, that is what is so awesome about Him!!



I wasn't perfect and I didnt have all of the answers when I came to know Christ as my Savior, and I still don't have all of the answers. I will when I get to heaven though ( ;



Even though I can't see God, I see what He has done. The trees, the animals, the beautiful sunset on a fall day, the intricies of the human body, how our heart and lungs work, how our bodies digest food, how a human being is formed inside the womb--it just can't be an accident, we can't be an accident!! God created us all with our different personalities, talents, etc because he wants a colorful world. (we'll leave the topic of evil for another day, Spyr--*grin*)



A wise apologist once said that we can't see God, but rather we see the effects of God--its like the wind, we can't see the wind but rather we see the effects of the wind on the trees and on me as I'm struggling to walk *grins* (that last part was a joke lol)

I know that you'll groan at this, but I want to share a verse with you:

Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see"

I'd encourage you to read the rest of that chapter...it's called the "faith chapter" you can access it with on online Bible if you don't have one.



That's enough talking with me, I can't claim to have all the answers, but if you ever want to talk about any of this let me know ( :

God Bless you all,

ASLER86

We can obviously talk about this all day; people have been doing it for centuries! So I'll stop arguing for now... however I'd like to discuss that verse you pointed out. I first heard it in slightly different words a few years ago and found it showed exactly what I meant that christianity is unreasonable:

Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see"

Hope is what I'd like to point out. Christians, in general, would say that what they believe in is true beyond a shadow of a doubt. Although this verse clearly uses hope as an, almost, corner stone to faith. Hope itself suggests that the the person who hopes could be let down does it not? If that's true then that means faith in god could be unfounded.

Just a little something I think about sometimes.

 

[ASLER86]

We can obviously talk about this all day; people have been doing it for centuries! So I'll stop arguing for now... however I'd like to discuss that verse you pointed out. I first heard it in slightly different words a few years ago and found it showed exactly what I meant that christianity is unreasonable:

Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see"

Hope is what I'd like to point out. Christians, in general, would say that what they believe in is true beyond a shadow of a doubt. Although this verse clearly uses hope as an, almost, corner stone to faith. Hope itself suggests that the the person who hopes could be let down does it not? If that's true then that means faith in god could be unfounded.

Just a little something I think about sometimes.

Good observation, but that's not quite what it means. Often it helps to get a full meaning of the word if you go to the original language.
The Greek word for hope (the NT was originally written in Greek) is elpizo, which means to hope in a religious sense with joy AND full confidence (Strongs Concordance)

"sure of what we hope for" refers to the fact that we hope for the time when we will be in Heaven with God. We are SURE that it will happen though. We enjoy our time that God has given us on earth, but we are looking forward to when we can spend eternity with God.

 

[Fineous_Reese]

But what Anoninus was trying to emphasize is that people want a non-changing world. Consistancy wasn't his point.

actually he said both if i read it correctly. the point that everyone wants a non-changing world is obvously wrong if just one person wants change. that everyone wants consistency isn't that much of a stretch since even someone that wants constant change is looking for consistency in the amount of change happening/available.

i reckon in Heaven there will be folks that don't want to do much more than sit at the feet of God and adore Him while other want to run about and give Him glory by exploring all the things He has created. heh, if He created this universe in six days and two thousand years ago said He's going to prepare a place for His bride, try to imagine how big and wonderful it will be. (yes, yes, insert here all the folks that don't believe in six days creation. just stick with the concept for a moment and ponder it )

 

[Antoninus Verus]

That is completely unfounded because I do want my world to be constantly changing and I know many others who want that as well.

How do you know, Antoninus? You may not want a constantly changing world, but that's just your preference. I know I want constant change -- it's difficult to think of any one thing I hate more in life than stasis. If nothing new is happening, you're not learning anything anymore or expanding your experience.

When everything always stays the same, you gain security and a guaranteed future, but you lose variety and growth. Some people value the former more; others, the latter. You, apparently, are one who would like the security and are willing to give up some excitement for its sake. That's your choice, but it's not the life I choose.

Both of you want change within a certain atmosphere of your own control, but as soon as that change exceeds your ability to control it, you dont like it. Its cool when a car youve never seen before drives by your front door and your sitting outside, its NOT so cool when two guys with guns lean out the window of that car and start blasting. As long as the change has little chance of hurting you, your ok with it but I guarantee that both of you would change your song if changes started happening that you couldnt control or changes that breached your own mental and physical defenses.

But what Anoninus was trying to emphasize is that people want a non-changing world. Consistancy wasn't his point.

Yes. What I meant to convey is that people like a static world. Static is safe, its usually not exciting, but its safe, and our minds like safe more than they like entertainment.

 

[gallykid08]

in response to the title of the forum...

why wouldnt you?

and i think it would be better then the alternative...burning for eternity doesnt sound like fun.

 

[Ledifni]

Matt's story may have glossed over these points but don't worry, they'll be addressed. When Bob (or whomever) stands in front of that throne they'll be shown every piece of evidence that pointed towards God and their need for salvation and how they willfully rejected it. But hey, no one has to believe me, they are free to willfully reject this too.

Um, that's not exactly the point. If, as you say, God will prove on Judgement Day that Bob does not in fact believe in him, that does not change the fact that God is considering only one piece of information about Bob -- whether or not Bob actively believes in him. Any other information is irrelevant in this story.

 

[Ledifni]

Both of you want change within a certain atmosphere of your own control, but as soon as that change exceeds your ability to control it, you dont like it. Its cool when a car youve never seen before drives by your front door and your sitting outside, its NOT so cool when two guys with guns lean out the window of that car and start blasting. As long as the change has little chance of hurting you, your ok with it but I guarantee that both of you would change your song if changes started happening that you couldnt control or changes that breached your own mental and physical defenses.

Yes. What I meant to convey is that people like a static world. Static is safe, its usually not exciting, but its safe, and our minds like safe more than they like entertainment.

Again, some minds like safe more than they like entertainment. The fact that people participate in extreme sports proves that what you say is not true. What humans universally don't like are no-escape situations. However, there are many dynamic and/or dangerous situations where there is an escape, and many people deliberately seek those situations out.

Not to mention, we're not even talking about danger, we're talking about change. The objection is that given all eternity, we will inevitably run out of things to do and see, not that we'll run out of danger. Danger is easy to find -- just stab yourself or shoot yourself.

 

[hartmanpeter]

in response to the title of the forum...

why wouldnt you?

and i think it would be better then the alternative...burning for eternity doesnt sound like fun.

Um...well...within this whole thread, there have been answers to that question.

And again, sure it's better than the alternative. But between a dentist and a proctologist, a dentist is a better alternative (I'm assuming that most would think so). I still don't feel like getting my teeth drilled.

 

[gallykid08]

but is heaven bad?

 

[Blackmarch]

but is heaven bad?

Depends what you want, if you would prefer pain, not being in God's presence, anguish, or any combo of that stuff and yada yada yada.. Then Hell will probably be more of the place for you, than heaven would be.

 

[Avtoritet]

Depends what you want, if you would prefer pain, not being in God's presence, anguish, or any combo of that stuff and yada yada yada.. Then Hell will probably be more of the place for you, than heaven would be.

Okay, if you really want to go to hell, then go there.

 

[hartmanpeter]

but is heaven bad?

I hesistate to label it "good" or "bad".

Of course, at first glance, it seems great! I, myself, have never doubted it's lure until recently. The more I thought about it, the more I didn't understand. Hence, this thread.

 

[Antoninus Verus]

Again, some minds like safe more than they like entertainment. The fact that people participate in extreme sports proves that what you say is not true. What humans universally don't like are no-escape situations. However, there are many dynamic and/or dangerous situations where there is an escape, and many people deliberately seek those situations out.

Not to mention, we're not even talking about danger, we're talking about change. The objection is that given all eternity, we will inevitably run out of things to do and see, not that we'll run out of danger. Danger is easy to find -- just stab yourself or shoot yourself.

Change is not always good. Change can be good OR bad. If people like any change at all, they like GOOD change.

But any change at all is un-predictable and while to a certain extent it may make things more exciting, beyond that it becomes frightening. Humans get VERY affraid of what they cant predict. Why do you think so many people are affraid of death?

Even too much good change is scary. Too much change creates chaos and chaos is NEVER something desired by people. A small ammount of chaos in a controlable environment is fun, but when that chaos breaks the containment seals, people start panicking.

We are ordered creatures, we like order. Even people who claim to thrive on chaos. Its how we are, its how we're wired

 

[HazyRigby]

Seems to me like what people are expecting heaven to be is a big mind-wipe. If you're not the same person you were when you were on earth, is it really "you" who has gone to heaven?

In order to be completely happy in heaven, people would have to forget all of the sadness and bad moments they've ever experienced; if one could remember a horrible rape in heaven, then one's mind would not be at peace. Or if you could remember it but were no longer disturbed by it, you still wouldn't be the same person. So, how can "you" without the bad memories that made you who you are be...you?

Another example: say that your beloved husband or wife or child is thrashing in the bowels of hell as you live a life of luxury in heaven. There are only two possibilities: either God has made it so that you no longer care/think about the absence of your beloved, in which case you wouldn't really be "you," or you can remember and do care, in which case heaven could not possibly be a happy place. Would you be thrilled about worshipping a God who set up the system by which the person you loved most in the world would be tormented forever and ever? I have to tell you that I'd be leading a rebellion in heaven in an attempt to save my husband.

So what you're saying is that you want to go to a place in which all of the "worldly" things that you now enjoy--making love, loving one person more than anyone else, playing even slightly violent or disturbing video games, eating ice cream until you feel as if you're going to burst, lying around on your day off reading a good book, and so on--all of these things wouldn't exist. If you no longer wish to do the things that you enjoy, are you really "you"? If you've forgotten or no longer care about your loved ones, are you truly the same person?

I can imagine that somewhere in the billions upon billions upon trillions of years that people will supposedly be living in heaven, I'd get the urge to make love to my husband once more. Or have a glass of wine. Or watch an 'R'-rated movie. Leaving aside the point that physical things would be impossible for a non-corporeal being, how could I possibly be the same person as I am now if all of the things I cared about were wiped away?

 

[HazyRigby]

Oh, and Matt--I have to say that your story was a very disturbing one. That's not how I define 'unconditional love.' I love my husband more than I love myself--and I don't care what he did, I would always love him. I could never hurt him, no matter what he did. And I most certainly could not consign him to an eternity in torment. What you're saying is that the creator of the universe is incapable of saying, "look, Bob. I know you didn't believe in Me when you were alive, but I can see through your eyes! I know how implausible all of this seemed to you. I created you as a skeptic, after all. So here's what we're gonna do; let's talk for a while. You and I can get things straightened out, right?"

Instead, your God is a slave to the system that he created. His "unconditional love" is very conditional--conditional to a belief during a very short period of time. Say what you want, but that's not love. Love is doing everything in one's power to prevent harm. If God is omnipotent, then He can prevent harm any time He chooses. The fact that the Christian God does not do so either proves that He doesn't love us unconditionally or proves that He does not exist.

I ask this to any person here--is there anybody who could stand to watch his most beloved person be tormented? Parents, could you stand by while your child was burned over and over again? Would it matter to you what your beloved's "crime" had been? Think about this: what you're ascribing to your God is that He knows that people are tormented, people he is purported to love...and yet He does nothing. If God is perfect, that means that he can't be miserable, right? And if He's not miserable knowing that His creations are calling out for His help, then He's a monster.