Heaven??? Why would you want to go to there??

[ASLER86]

Oh, and about Heaven....

The idea of angels floating on clouds stringing harps may or may not be accurate--I haven't seen anything like that in the Bible!!

From my research and my readings and my personal conviction--Heaven is going to be an awesome place with no fear, no pain, no sickness. We are going to be there to worship the Almighty God who created us--and that will be awesome!! Nothing can be better than being in the presence of God. I like to think there will be a good set of drums, some electric guitars, etc (lol), Heaven is going to be a place of pure bliss where we can talk with God, and talk to others, and where we can see people from history--imagine talking to Abraham or King David...lol.
I think it won't all be singing, but also fellowshipping where we can play games and where we can take a walk with the One who created us.

And to turn the question around (no offense) why would you want to go to hell with the one who caused the deaths and pitfalls of thousands?
*shrugs* just a thought

 

[hartmanpeter]

I was unaware that you had access to more knowledge of heaven than others. I suppose that would make you Gnostic rather than Agnostic. Maybe you can enlighten us as to how you know what heaven fully entails to justify your assertion that it contains 'utter boredom' and we could address it from there while all being on the same page.

I was pleased to see that there were some Christians posting in this thread who cared enough to address my concern and to understand that concern within it's flaws and assumptions. In my OP, the "boredom" was associated with what I believed to be an unchanging state of being. Since then, however, I've been priviledge to the thoughts and beliefs of others who took the time to respond with thoughtful comments (barring a select few). I don't pretend to know what Heaven will be like, I only argue based on what I was taught in church. Those teachings may have be wrong.

 

[hartmanpeter]

Not really. You've presented an imaginary scenario in which you are right about absolutely everything and I am wrong about absolutely everything. What does that teach me, or anyone? I can also tell you a story in which I am absolutely infallible and you are completely deceived, and where would that leave us?

Before I say anything, I wanted to say that Matt Never Existed is one of my favorite posters on here. Way to go Matt!!

Having said that, I'd like to input: Ledifni, you took the words right out of my mouth. That story has no bearing whatsoever. How could it? Bob holds no bearing. He doesn't exist. Sure, the story is sad. But it's just a story. Doesn't mean anything. Or at least to me, it doesn't.

 

[hartmanpeter]

We all yearn for Him. We all feel an emptiness. Some fill it with drugs, some with alcohol, some with the opposite sex, some with partying, some with the need for "stuff" like clothes and video games. But none of that fully satisfies, we could have all of the stuff in the world and we still wouldnt be happy. We hit rock bottom and we wonder why we aren't happy.

Only Christ can fill that gap, that emptiness.

For example, my brother filled his life with worldly things, I have friends that used to be into partying, they all hit rock bottom at some point or another and they didn't find satisfaction with their life until they found Christ.

I can understand what you're trying to communicate. There are people who have an emptiness they try to fill with all kinds of things. I've known people like that myself but I can't deny that I know of people who don't feel that emptiness, heck, I'm one of them! There are some people who join a club or mentor and child or volunteer who testify that the emptiness they felt has been filled with those good deeds and activities. Not everyone turns to alcohol or drugs or sex.

 

[hartmanpeter]

Oh, and about Heaven....

The idea of angels floating on clouds stringing harps may or may not be accurate--I haven't seen anything like that in the Bible!!

From my research and my readings and my personal conviction--Heaven is going to be an awesome place with no fear, no pain, no sickness. We are going to be there to worship the Almighty God who created us--and that will be awesome!! Nothing can be better than being in the presence of God. I like to think there will be a good set of drums, some electric guitars, etc (lol), Heaven is going to be a place of pure bliss where we can talk with God, and talk to others, and where we can see people from history--imagine talking to Abraham or King David...lol.
I think it won't all be singing, but also fellowshipping where we can play games and where we can take a walk with the One who created us.

And to turn the question around (no offense) why would you want to go to hell with the one who caused the deaths and pitfalls of thousands?
*shrugs* just a thought

Yea, I don't know about angels on clouds either

But, I agree, worshipping God, and playing music and singing and dancing and playing games, learning everything I've ever wanted to learn, no getting sick or tired or scared or sad! Living in mansions and meeting all the people throughout history...WOW!! That would be awesome! Walking with God, learning more about him and so much more!

But after a million...billion...trillion...years...

Eternity. My problem is with the Eternity of all those things. Doesn't seem that great to me.

I'd like to add that I don't actually believe in Hell or Heaven. And I wouldn't go to Heaven just to avoid hell. I wouldn't respect a God who would want that.

 

[Ledifni]

The story is in responce to someone saying they would be 'forced' to go to hell. It was to show that hell, in my eyes, is the absence of God. That would just mean that, if I'm right in my beliefs, then athiests are simply getting exactly what they wanted while they were alive. A place where God isn't there.

No, you've presented Hell and stipulated that it is Hell because God isn't there. You did not show a world without God and allow it to be whatever it becomes.

It doesn't matter what you call Hell -- it's still a place of eternal punishment that Bob does not want to end up in, not Bob's vision of what will happen to him after he dies. In your scenario, Bob isn't getting exactly what he wants. He's getting what you believe he will get, whether he wants it or not, and your story does nothing but demonstrate your own personal spin on eternal torment.

Or, to put it another way: Forcing water down a thirsty man's throat until he dies isn't quite the same thing as giving him exactly what he wants.

If you give me a story where you were infallible, and I was wrong, then that would be awesome. I'm wrong and deceived all the time. (Mainly by cereal boxes that look to hold the greatest toy thats ever existed deep within its sugar-coated depths.)

What's the point? I might write a story like that for entertainment, except that it would seem a bit self-congratulatory to have something like that published, but I don't expect you to learn anything by hearing all about how, when you die, you're gonna, uh... have no idea that I'm absolutely right, because you won't exist anymore, but the point is I'll be right! You see? It simply doesn't matter.

What would the story look like if you were right, and I was wrong?

If I am right and you are wrong, there is no story. We die and leave nothing but our bodies. Bob's story was told and finished before he was even in the ground. It is that story that matters, if I am right.

I never look to 'teach' anyone anything. I mainly just share my thoughts, be them right or wrong. What I've said on both heaven and hell in this topic are what I firmly believe about both places. Take my thoughts as you will. ~shrug~

I understand, and if I take your story as just that, a fictional story for simple information about your beliefs, I have no problem with it. It's just that I don't really see the relevance, and it seemed that you intended it to have some relevance, from the way you put it.

 

[Ledifni]

But Matt, God ignores many things about Bob in your story that he should not. He ignores the possibility that Bob would like to know about God, but sees no evidence that He exists. He ignores the possibility that Bob has misunderstood God in some way, and that Bob now realizes his error and repents. He ignores the fact that He could simply place the necessary understanding in Bob's mind, and that this would not violate Bob's free will any more than sending Bob to a place of torment in which he has no free will.

I could go on, but my point is that when you tell Bob's story, you're ignoring Bob's input. You decided that certain things were true of Bob and that certain unpleasant things must therefore happen to Bob -- without bothering to take into account any information about Bob whatsoever except for one single, quite undescriptive fact: Bob does not actively believe that God exists.

 

[Blackmarch]

We live in a world of constant flux. Our lives revolve around the desire of change. We change our hair and our clothes. We change our furniture. We change our wants. We grow weary of work and desire change. Relationships become stagnant and the remedy is often change. The universe is alive with change. An ever expanding universe. The birth and destruction of countless stars and galaxies is a testament to change. In this world of constant change, why would we yearn for an eternity of utter boredom in heaven? To worship and praise an almighty being for ever and ever hardly seems plausible to me. Why do we choose to believe in heaven? A place that goes against our being and our existence. God created us in his own image. All that exist was created by God. This world of change was created in flux. Are we to believe that our final destination is this Heaven? Are we to believe that God would create such a place that goes against the nature of his creation, the nature of man?

One would go there if one could be with friends and family, also if one could continue to learn knowledge and be a allowed to use it.

Also if one does not have to stand around listening to a preacher yell at you how the bible saves because of jesus and how you go to hell...

Then this one will shoot for heaven.

 

[ASLER86]

Yea, I don't know about angels on clouds either

But, I agree, worshipping God, and playing music and singing and dancing and playing games, learning everything I've ever wanted to learn, no getting sick or tired or scared or sad! Living in mansions and meeting all the people throughout history...WOW!! That would be awesome! Walking with God, learning more about him and so much more!

But after a million...billion...trillion...years...

Eternity. My problem is with the Eternity of all those things. Doesn't seem that great to me.

I'd like to add that I don't actually believe in Hell or Heaven. And I wouldn't go to Heaven just to avoid hell. I wouldn't respect a God who would want that.

The thing is that it won't be like here where we will get bored...we will be in Heaven with God and that will never get old. Time in Heaven will not be the same as time here on earth.

And about the void that people feel--I didn't mean just destructive things, sorry if I didn't state that clearly. After volunteering or doing other good deeds...is that enough? Even that can get old, even that can make you wonder if you are doing everything you can, even then you can wonder if there is more to life....
Just a thought.

The thing with me, in believing in God and being a Christian it is more than just blindly following. Yes, I believe in faith that God sent His son to die for me, a lowly sinner. But through studying science and studying how the earth is formed, the more I learn through all subjects the more it solidifies what I believe.

 

[Spyr]

After reading this thread it appears to me that some people who go to heaven will be a completely different person. I'm not talking about the christians who stays away from drugs and unwedded sex and distateful deeds, I mean the people who actually want to drink and sleep around and do heinous things. They turn to god out of fear of Hell and follow the life of the righteous and what do they get for their loyalty to the almighty? A new body and a new mind. In other words they're a different person.

I think that's a bad deal right there. If I were to stop my destructive behavior in hopes of going to a Better Place, I'd like my reward in heaven to allow me to do all those awful things which the god above loaths. Seems to me that one should just do whatever they feel like on earth, die and go to Hell. Pretty sure it won't be boring there Peter huh?! High Five!

 

[ASLER86]

After reading this thread it appears to me that some people who go to heaven will be a completely different person. I'm not talking about the christians who stays away from drugs and unwedded sex and distateful deeds, I mean the people who actually want to drink and sleep around and do heinous things. They turn to god out of fear of Hell and follow the life of the righteous and what do they get for their loyalty to the almighty? A new body and a new mind. In other words they're a different person.

I think that's a bad deal right there. If I were to stop my destructive behavior in hopes of going to a Better Place, I'd like my reward in heaven to allow me to do all those awful things which the god above loaths. Seems to me that one should just do whatever they feel like on earth, die and go to Hell. Pretty sure it won't be boring there Peter huh?! High Five!

Heaven won't be boring (see my prev posts). You'll be in the presence of the Almighty God and will be able to fellowship with others. There will be no desire to do sinful things, nor will it be boring.
I get a sense of heaven when I worship God in church or chapel, Heaven will be hundreds of times better than that.
Have you ever heard the song "I Can Only Imagine" by MercyMe?

Hell will not be boring, it will be eternal suffering.
Are you willing to have 70-80 years of fun and doing destructive behavior and wager that for an eternity of suffering?????

Life isn't all about drugs and sex and doing destructive behavior. I am happy living the way I live while not doing any of that stuff. I have fun, I go to movies and play games with friends. I'm not missing anything by staying away from partying.
I have friends who turned away from the party scene and came to God and they will tell you that they are thousands of times happier now than before.

And on a side note, Christians don't believe that sex is bad, we just believe that it is a special act between husband and wife.

 

[Observer]

I think our human selves rely on fluctuation, positive/negative energy... I think God uses satan's work for good in that sense, because the negative aspects of life contribute to our understanding of the positive aspects of life, and how good they feel etc. But, when we die, we're not human anymore... and not on earth anymore... so we don't rely on the same things as we do in this physical world, so you wouldn't need the same things anymore. It's hard to imagine not being human because that's all we really know... that's why heaven can't really make all that much sense when we're on earth. I don't think anyone knows what heaven would be like... but heaven is said to be perfect, so it wouldn't be boring/dead like you imagine... that'd be more like limbo, or hell maybe... I think people just confuse eachother with their opinions on heaven

 

[hartmanpeter]

I think our human selves rely on fluctuation, positive/negative energy... I think God uses satan's work for good in that sense, because the negative aspects of life contribute to our understanding of the positive aspects of life, and how good they feel etc. But, when we die, we're not human anymore... and not on earth anymore... so we don't rely on the same things as we do in this physical world, so you wouldn't need the same things anymore. It's hard to imagine not being human because that's all we really know... that's why heaven can't really make all that much sense when we're on earth. I don't think anyone knows what heaven would be like... but heaven is said to be perfect, so it wouldn't be boring/dead like you imagine... that'd be more like limbo, or hell maybe... I think people just confuse eachother with their opinions on heaven

Thank you Asler86. Thank you Observer. Thank you all of you, mostly. I think I've gotten my answer. The little information that I believed about Heaven isn't really information at all. The truth is, I have no idea how Heaven will be like. I'm trying to understand it through human eyes, and a human mind. God made me and I'd have to trust that he knows what he's doing. Again, thank you all for your time. It's been fun and educational. Now all I have to do is start believing in heaven and God. But that's a topic for a different thread. One that already exist, I believe, right Spyr?

Please don't lump me in with Spyr, although we do share many of the same doubts and negative feelings toward christianity, his manner of discussing them is a little more abrasive than mine, at times. So no, Spyr. No high hive!
My dear old brother...

 

[Antoninus Verus]

People dont want change, they want consistancy. NO ONE wants to have thier world constantly changing.

 

[Spyr]

Heaven won't be boring (see my prev posts). You'll be in the presence of the Almighty God and will be able to fellowship with others. There will be no desire to do sinful things, nor will it be boring.
I get a sense of heaven when I worship God in church or chapel, Heaven will be hundreds of times better than that.
Have you ever heard the song "I Can Only Imagine" by MercyMe?

Hell will not be boring, it will be eternal suffering.
Are you willing to have 70-80 years of fun and doing destructive behavior and wager that for an eternity of suffering?????

Life isn't all about drugs and sex and doing destructive behavior. I am happy living the way I live while not doing any of that stuff. I have fun, I go to movies and play games with friends. I'm not missing anything by staying away from partying.
I have friends who turned away from the party scene and came to God and they will tell you that they are thousands of times happier now than before.

And on a side note, Christians don't believe that sex is bad, we just believe that it is a special act between husband and wife.

I see what your saying, I really do but what I find a lot of christians don't take into consideration is that some people just don't want to be happy all the time. It may sound strange but I know for me that's completely true. It's all about the ying yang, we see the benefit of understanding the sadness, the anger, the darkness because it allows you to enjoy happiness, joy and light even more! Think of it as eating something really bitter and then really sweet right after. I'm sure for many people heaven sounds like a wonderful places. For me, the idea of it leaves me wanting.

 

[Ledifni]

People dont want change, they want consistancy. NO ONE wants to have thier world constantly changing.

How do you know, Antoninus? You may not want a constantly changing world, but that's just your preference. I know I want constant change -- it's difficult to think of any one thing I hate more in life than stasis. If nothing new is happening, you're not learning anything anymore or expanding your experience.

When everything always stays the same, you gain security and a guaranteed future, but you lose variety and growth. Some people value the former more; others, the latter. You, apparently, are one who would like the security and are willing to give up some excitement for its sake. That's your choice, but it's not the life I choose.

 

[Spyr]

I think our human selves rely on fluctuation, positive/negative energy... I think God uses satan's work for good in that sense, because the negative aspects of life contribute to our understanding of the positive aspects of life, and how good they feel etc. But, when we die, we're not human anymore... and not on earth anymore... so we don't rely on the same things as we do in this physical world, so you wouldn't need the same things anymore. It's hard to imagine not being human because that's all we really know... that's why heaven can't really make all that much sense when we're on earth. I don't think anyone knows what heaven would be like... but heaven is said to be perfect, so it wouldn't be boring/dead like you imagine... that'd be more like limbo, or hell maybe... I think people just confuse eachother with their opinions on heaven

Actually, what I was taught that heaven would be praising god for all eternity. From what I understand when Satan fell from heaven he brought a third of the angels with him. Lucifer was the archangel of the choir and all his kind were thrown out. We were then suppose to take their place. This would also be the reason why Lucifer hates man so much. So from what I was taught in a Evangelical Protestant Church. Frankly the fact that no one really has a solid idea of heaven other than "It'll be a thousand times more wonderful that anything you can possiblity imagine!" kinda lends to the idea that maybe it doesn't exist. Very much like when my dad told me my dog went to doggy heaven. Feels made up.

 

[Spyr]

People dont want change, they want consistancy. NO ONE wants to have thier world constantly changing.

That is completely unfounded because I do want my world to be constantly changing and I know many others who want that as well.

 

[Blackmarch]

Well one wouldn't go to heaven to listen to preaching of hellfire and damnation or to be warmed by the burning souls..

 

[Spyr]

Please don't lump me in with Spyr, although we do share many of the same doubts and negative feelings toward christianity, his manner of discussing them is a little more abrasive than mine, at times. So no, Spyr. No high hive!
My dear old brother...

Oh don't leave me hanging brother!