Heaven or Hell?

cvanwey · Jul 30, 2018

HTacianas said:
To answer your question:

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Every man has a conscience, and every man will be judged based on that conscience. Those who by nature do good will be rewarded. Those who do wrong will be punished. One of the difficulties those face is that by habit and custom they have learned to do wrong instead of right. Those suffer from "...having their conscience seared with a hot iron".

Evangelization is not merely to tell people about Jesus, but to encourage them to repentance.

But the precursor to possible 'repentance' is to first believe, via John 3:16-18 and Mark 16:15-16. You cannot initiate a belief before the concept is presented.

So I again ask...

A remote tribe is massacred having never heard of Jesus. Do they reside in heaven, or not?

devolved · Jul 30, 2018

cvanwey said:
Thank you for this response. However, it does not appear to answer the axiomatic question posed?

A tribe is exterminated, and never heard of Jesus. According to the 'correct' translations of scripture, do they go to heaven or hell - (regardless of what your personal concept of 'hell' might actually be)?

Why do you think they would have to "go" anywhere? Heaven and hell could merely be idealized extremes of human condition expressed through hyperbole of certain outcomes of beliefs.

cvanwey · Jul 30, 2018

devolved said:
Why do you think they would have to "go" anywhere? Heaven and hell could merely be idealized extremes of human condition expressed through hyperbole of certain outcomes of beliefs.

I'm asking, as such concepts are presented from scripture, via the Holy Bible. You are classified as a 'seeker'. Hence, maybe you do not adhere to such conclusions, as presented from the Bible? If not, then your response serves perfectly satisfactory, and warrants nothing further

devolved · Jul 30, 2018

cvanwey said:
I'm asking, as such concepts are presented from scripture, via the Holy Bible. You are classified as a 'seeker'. Hence, maybe you do not adhere to such conclusions, as presented from the Bible? If not, then your response serves perfectly satisfactory, and warrants nothing further

Why should my forum classifications matter as identity. I graduated with Biblical theology minor, so I think it should count for something as I respond to your questions in that regard. There are more than one way to look at the issue if Biblical narrative interpretation. Hence your insistence on a literal approach is puzzling in terms of what you yourself claim to believe.

cvanwey · Jul 30, 2018

devolved said:
Why should my forum classifications matter as identity. I graduated with Biblical theology minor, so I think it should count for something as I respond to your questions in that regard. There are more than one way to look at the issue if Biblical narrative interpretation. Hence your insistence on a literal approach is puzzling in terms of what you yourself claim to believe.

Though I do agree with much of what you are saying, your response further drives my conclusion.

Believers, non-believers, etc., all interpret the very same Bible passages differently (for many differing reasons). Since you are a 'seeker', this tells me you are open for interpretation (presumably). Sorry for the 'label', or the conclusion I draw upon. We have 'limited' conclusions, since this is a forum exchange Meaning, I've already 'presupposed' that you are open for suggestion or interpretation, based upon the word 'seeker'. Sorry if this is narrow minded on my part I choose not the squabble over minutiae. My OP presents a true dichotomy, from (my) interpretation. Is belief required to join Jesus in heaven or not? Because without first being aware of such a Jesus, how might one choose to believe, worship, repent, etc., to such an entity?

What verses are to be taken literally?

Based upon what 'objective' standard are such selected verses to be taken literally?

Does there exist an 'objective' basis to conclude a literal and axiomatic translation to any/all verses from the Bible?

Prior to responding (I'm already aware of possible context to some verses)....

devolved · Jul 30, 2018

cvanwey said:
Is belief required to join Jesus in heaven or not? Because without first being aware of such a Jesus, how might one choose to believe, worship, repent, etc., to such an entity?

I think if you are asking this question, then you are missing the point. The goal of Christianity imo is heaven here and now as opposed to heaven after death, which may not exist.

We know that here and now exists and we should understand it and try to make it better environment for future generations.

If heaven happens to exist after death, then it's a bonus.

cvanwey said:
What verses are to be taken literally

I'd say none of them. The problem with language is the shift of setting that can't have one adequately understand the "literal" meaning in a setting that it was written originally. Thus it automatically becomes an analogy to your own setting you may be applying this to.

In context of religious literature derived largely through oral history... I think it's a mistake to turn it into anything more than moralistic ideals expressed in a narrative form.

We couldn't and wouldn't relate to God in any other way... Except through a metaphor of that ideal.

cvanwey · Jul 30, 2018

devolved said:
I think if you are asking this question, then you are missing the point. The goal of Christianity imo is heaven here and now as opposed to heaven after death, which may not exist.

We know that here and now exists and we should understand it and try to make it better environment for future generations.

If heaven happens to exist after death, then it's a bonus.

I'd say none of them. The problem with language is the shift of setting that can't have one adequately understand the "literal" meaning in a setting that it was written originally. Thus it automatically becomes an analogy to your own setting you may be applying this to.

In context of religious literature derived largely through oral history... I think it's a mistake to turn it into anything more than moralistic ideals expressed in a narrative form.

We couldn't and wouldn't relate to God in any other way... Except through a metaphor of that ideal.

I get what you are saying, I 'think.' Meaning, to appeal to the Bible, other than a book of 'suggestions' and 'recommendations', could be considered a representation of some form of 'idolatry'....? I guess this is why such a forum exists here - (interpretation differs widely).

However, it 'appears' pretty 'clear' that a lack in belief to Jesus yields the denial of 'salvation'.

But I ask you... In Mark 16:15-16, it states whomever believes will be saved. So if life completely ends after earthly natural death, what are you 'saved' from?.?.?.? If we all end up in the ground after death, what is the human saved from under theism?

It is actually you, whom appears puzzling. If everything actually ends at human death, then I would really wonder why (you) would practice any religion at all? I could, however, still see how morals are relevant, in the sense that what is important is right in front of you, and now, warrants acting morally to co-exist and to cooperate within a given society (among many other justifications to apply 'morals').

However, to worship any entity, whom is not going to provide you with an eternal existence, appears to be an odd concept to wrap my brain around at the moment? Meaning, if belief versus no belief warrants the same results, then what would be the point? I'm not stating this with the notion that one is attempting to simply reap a reward in exchange for the belief..... Please understand, I make such statements because I'm asking what the actual motivation might be in following such an entity? Honest question...

Then also, what is one to make of such verses like...

Revelation 20:14-15 ('Thrown into a lake of fire...' 'Anyone who's name is not found, is thrown into such a lake of fire')?

All metaphor? How do you know?

Heaven or Hell?

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