Heaven: Is it a SPIRITUAL REALM?.. NOT the equal/opposite of "Hell"/"Lake of Fire": A SPIRITUAL REAL

Ron Gurley

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Heaven: A SPIRITUAL REALM?.. NOT the equal/opposite of "Hell"/"Lake of Fire": A SPIRITUAL REALM?

NOTE: all citations are NASB

out of heaven...Hebrew 8064....shamayim / shamayin (Aramaic) ...as the abode of God

Genesis 19:24
Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah
brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven,

Genesis 22:15
Then "the angel of the LORD" called to Abraham a second time from heaven,

Daniel 6:27
“He delivers and rescues and performs signs and wonders
In heaven and on earth,
Who has also delivered Daniel from the power of the lions.”

of heaven ...Greek 3772....ouranos...
realm "above" the "sidereal heavens",
the seat of order of things eternal (spiritual)
and consummately perfect where God and other heavenly spirit beings dwell

Matthew 5:12
“Rejoice and be glad,
for your reward in heaven is great;
for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Matthew 6:9
“Pray, then, in this way:
‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.

Mark 16:19
So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them,
He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

Luke 3:21-2..The TRI-UNE GOD (see also: Matthew 3:16-18)
Now when all the people were baptized,
Jesus (God the Son) was also baptized, and
while He was praying, heaven was opened,
and (God) the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form LIKE a dove,
and a voice (God the Father) came out of heaven,
“You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.”

1 Peter 3:22
who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven,
after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Revelation 19:1 [ The Fourfold Hallelujah ]
After these things I heard something like a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God;

JESUS: ON HEAVEN / KINGDOM of Heaven / Kingdom of God: A SPIRITUAL REALM !

Matthew 4:17 (SEE ALSO: Mark 1)
From that time Jesus began to preach and say,
“Repent (turn to God), for the "kingdom of heaven" (Jesus the Divine Messiah) is at hand.”

Matthew 11:25 [Jesus: Come to Me ]
At that time Jesus said,
“I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth,
that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and
have revealed them to infants.

Matthew 13:11
Jesus answered them, “To you (believers) it has been granted to know the mysteries of the "kingdom of heaven",
but to them (UNbelievers)it has not been granted.

Matthew 13:24 [Tares among Wheat]
Jesus presented another parable to them, saying,
“The "kingdom of heaven" may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.

Matthew 16:1 [Pharisees Test Jesus ]
The Pharisees and Sadducees came up, and testing Jesus,
they asked Him to show them a sign from heaven.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus said to him (illegal trial before Caiaphas)
“You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you,
hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and
coming on the clouds of heaven.” (second Coming)

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying,
“All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Mark 16:19
So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them,
He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

John 6:42 They (Jewish enquirers) were saying,
“Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know?
How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?”

John 17:1 [The High Priestly Prayer] Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said,
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,

Heavens to Betsy..a Spiritual Realm? HELL: YES!

Whatcha think? ...or do you?


 
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HereIStand

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Based Revelation 21:1-3, a new heaven will come down to a new earth, where Christians will dwell forever with God and each other. It will be a material realm, but certainly different (and better) than anything we can now experience.
 
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Ron Gurley

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NEW Heaven + NEW Earth + NEW Jerusalem: PROPHECIES

All citations NASB.

Isaiah 65:17 [ New Heavens and a New Earth ]
“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

Isaiah 66:22
“For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me,”
declares the Lord, “So your offspring and your name will endure.

2 Peter 3:10, 13 [ A New Heaven and New Earth ]
But "the day of the Lord" will come like a thief,
in which the heavens (atmosphere?) will pass away with a roar and the elements (chemical materials) will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its "works" will be burned up...
But according to His PROMISE, we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Revelation 21:1 [ The New Heaven and New Earth ] Then I saw a NEW heaven and a NEW earth;
for the FIRST heaven and the FIRST earth passed away, (OUR PLANET EARTH NOW?!)
and there is no longer any sea.

2 And I saw the holy city, NEW Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a "bride" (THE "CHURCH") adorned for her husband.(Jesus)
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne (GOD THE FATHER?), saying,
“Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and
He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes;
and there will no longer be any death;
there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the "first things" (THE WORLD {cosmos], THE FLESH{sin nature}, and THE DEVIL) have passed away.”

The New Jerusalem

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the "holy city", (NEW) Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God.

then...>A detailed and vivid description of "The Holy City", verses 11-26

27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it,
but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s "book of life".(true belivers)

SOOO ...let's talk about the PRESENT: "the FIRST heaven and the FIRST earth"
 
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Ron Gurley

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POST #5 "You'll find throwing a plethora of scriptures at people with no set organization does little to bolster an argument or doctrine."

argument and doctrine:

1. Does "heaven" exist NOW? 3 "Heavens"??
2. Where is it?
3. Is it a purely SPIRITUAL REALM...or something else?
4. When the body/soul combo of believers "dies", where does their SPIRIT go?
5. Is "Hell" the equal and opposite of "Heaven"? Define each with Scripture.
6. Are these "realms" mentioned in the Nicene/Apostle's Creeds??
 
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Ron Gurley

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Bye the bye, my copy + paste of Scripture is ONE shy of a "plethora".

plethora (NOUN)
1.a large or excessive amount of (something)
Powered by Oxford Dictionaries · Oxford University Press · Translation by Bing Translator
 
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HereIStand

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POST #5 "You'll find throwing a plethora of scriptures at people with no set organization does little to bolster an argument or doctrine."

argument and doctrine:

1. Does "heaven" exist NOW? 3 "Heavens"??
2. Where is it?
3. Is it a purely SPIRITUAL REALM...or something else?
4. When the body/soul combo of believers "dies", where does their SPIRIT go?
5. Is "Hell" the equal and opposite of "Heaven"? Define each with Scripture.
6. Are these "realms" mentioned in the Nicene/Apostle's Creeds??

Good questions to ponder. As for question 4, when a believer dies now, his soul goes to heaven. His body awaits the resurrection at the return of Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
 
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Ron Gurley

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Post #9: "...As for question 4, when a believer dies now, his soul goes to heaven. His body awaits the resurrection at the return of Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:16)."

A slightly different view.

JESUS' DEATH...a BELIEVER'S DEATH...then what?

Let's try it this way....

Jesus the God-Man had a "composition" generally like ours (BUT unique / only begotten)....

He was divided into 3 parts:
1. SPIRIT = (God "Image" and Person of the God Head...pneuma),
2. SOUL = (~personality interacting with body....psyche) and
3. BODY = (~man's machine, controlled by brain/CNS...sarx)

Step #1 ...
Jesus surrendered his SPIRIT on the Cross...before the end of "Day" 1
Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice,
“Father, into your hands I commit my SPIRIT.”

Step #2
When he had said this, he breathed his last. (Body/Soul combo bled to death / "died" without decay)

Step #3
"Dead" Body/Soul combo mummified and entombed.......before the end of "Day" 1

Step#4
Luke 23:43...Jesus: 1 of 7 sayings from the Cross..
Jesus answered him (thief) , "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in Paradise."...(on the cross)..."Days before Resurrection!
...Jesus was in "Paradise" between the time of Body/Soul combo "death" and TRANSFORMATION/ "resurrection" into His SPECIAL and unique "spirit-body".

Jesus' goes to the "Paradise" side of "Abraham's Bosom" to free the spirits of believers, who were awaiting their Divine Messsiah, into heaven.
The unbelievers in "Hades" were released for eternal judgment. Jesus fulfilled/abolished "Abraham's Bosom" which no longer exists on this side of the Cross. SEE: Luke 19:16-31...NOT a parable!

1 Peter 3: 18-19 (NIV with my comments)
(Jesus the Christ's BODY/SOUL combo) being put to death in the flesh, but made (spiritually) alive by (God) the (Holy) Spirit,
19 by whom also He (resurrected Jesus) went and preached to (~released) the spirits (souls) in prison,...
("Paradise" side of "Abraham's Bosom")

"Paradise"* - The ACTUAL spiritual abode was: "angel populated", "comfort(ing)", containing secret "inexpressible things". etc.

Now let's do the same analysis for a BELIEVER, one truly "John 3"/"Ephesians 2 "saved".

First, Many scholars do not know the author of Ecclesiastes and whether he was the "wisest Man".
Here is my favorite snippet therefrom:

Ecclesiastes 12...Remember God in Your Youth: AT DEATH...
7 then the dust (body/soul combo) will return to the earth as it was, (Genesis 2:7)
and the spirit (breath of life) will return to God who gave it. (Genesis 1:26)
8 “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher, “all is vanity!”

Second, Let's define "DEAD"!
What part of Man "dies" when his blood pump and brain bucket stop?
What part of Man "lives" beyond "death"? (if any?)

What I choose to be BELIEVE for believers:
" To be absent from the BODY/SOUL combo (death on earth) is to be present (spiritually) with the TRI-UNE GOD (eternal life in heavenly realms)".
...a paraphrase of Paul, emphasizing differences in BODY / SPIRIT.

2 Corinthians 5: 1-15 (NIV)...Our Heavenly Dwelling
8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer
to be away from the BODY and at home (HEAVEN) with the Lord.(SPIRITUAL PRESENCE)

1 Peter 3: 18-19 (NIV with my comments)
(Jesus the Christ's BODY) being put to death in the flesh, but made (spiritually) alive by (God) the (Holy) Spirit,
19 by whom also He (resurrected Jesus) went and preached to (~release) the spirits (souls) in prison,...
("Paradise" side of "Abraham's Bosom")

For the THREE parts of Man,
1. SPIRIT = pneuma
2. SOUL = psyche
3. BODY = sarx, soma
SEE:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NIV)
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through.
May your whole SPIRIT, SOUL and BODY be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 (NASB) ....difference in SOUL and SPIRIT
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword,
and piercing as far as the DIVISION of SOUL and SPIRIT,
of both joints and marrow, (BODY)
and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.(spiritual conscience)

Luke 16: 19-31...Remember Jesus' teaching on Jewish Tradition of after-life...Jesus' descent to set the captives free...
TWO unseen and separated spiritual PLACES for the SPIRITS of the DEAD...
"Paradise"* + "Hades"** = "Abraham's Busom"

Bodies (sarx / flesh) are mortal. They die a natural death when the heart / brain fail.

Souls (psyches) are mortal and have a mystical union with Body. They die a natural death with the Body.

Spirits (pnuema) are immortal, in the image and likeness of the God of pure and perfect spirit.

The Body / Soul combo "houses" the Spirit.

All SPIRITS will be JUDGED by God for their acts / omissions while in the Body / Soul.
Believers: ONLY for spiritual "works"
UNbelievers: their lack of SPIRITUAL POSITION in Christ AND their thoughts/deeds =>SENTENCING

1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your BODY (/soul COMBO) is a temple of (God) the Holy Spirit who is in you,
whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

Sorry for being verbose, BUT "it is complicated".
 
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Radrook

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Heaven and Hell will both a a physical, material space. Scripture talks about Creation being restored and Heaven and Earth will become one.

Since believe hat hell is a place and that in that place people will be roasted alive forever in a lake of fire-then how come it says that hell itself is hurled into the lake of fire and how is it that hell can experience a second death?



Revelation 20:14

King James Bible
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Also, please explain why these other following translations render the word as the grave and sheol instead of hell.

New Living Translation
Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death.



Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And Death and Sheol were cast into The Lake of Fire- this which is the second death.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Bye the bye, my copy + paste of Scripture is ONE shy of a "plethora".

plethora (NOUN)
1.a large or excessive amount of (something)
Powered by Oxford Dictionaries · Oxford University Press · Translation by Bing Translator
Hello RG,
I have found this helpful maybe you will enjoy also;
I have been restudying this whole idea of what and where is heaven...in part because of this excerpt of a sermon by Kit Culver.....on Sacred Space...God with us....part of the transcript....what are your thoughts on this?? everyone can offer....
When Christians think of God’s habitation, they invariably think of a place called heaven. This is not incorrect as far as it goes, but most have a conception of heaven that is, at best, partial and indistinct; to that extent it is necessarily flawed. The common notion of heaven is that it is an ethereal, spiritual place that exists somewhere “up there”; a place where God sits on His throne and administers His rule over His creation while looking down upon the earth and its people and activities. This conception is understandable given that the Bible employs this sort of imagery in its portrayal of heaven.
a. First of all, Scripture uses spatial – and most especially vertical – language to speak of heaven. Notably, Hebrew and Greek each employ the same word to refer to the sky, the realm of the celestial bodies, and the place of God’s habitation. But this language is metaphorical, not literal: the “up there” representation of heaven is intended to suggest the ideas of remoteness and superiority. Heaven is “above the earth” in the sense that it is unearthly; it is a higher mode of reality.
The otherworldly quality of heaven is further emphasized by the strange and unearthly images associated with it (cf. Ezekiel 1:4-28, 8:1-4, 10:1-22). Similarly, its status as a higher realm or mode of reality is highlighted by the “enameled” imagery the Bible uses to describe it. It is associated with glass, crystal, and luminous metals such as bronze and gold. Even more, it is a jeweled realm, marked by the radiance characteristic of precious gems (cf. Ezekiel 1; Revelation 4:1-6, 21:9-21). These things emphasize permanence (expressed by hardness and durability) as well as glory (expressed by value, brilliance, and luminosity).
b. One important and obvious reason – though not the only reason – for representing heaven as above the earth is the fact that it is God’s dwelling. Because He is “high and lifted up,” so also is the place of His habitation (cf. Isaiah 6:1-3, 57:15).
c. And because God dwells in heaven, it is the place from which He exercises the various aspects of His rule over His creation. Thus heaven is portrayed in the imagery of a temple and throne room (Psalm 11:1-4, 103:19; Isaiah 6:1-4, 66:1; Ezekiel 1:26-28, 10:1-5; Daniel 7:1-10; Revelation 21:22-22:1-2; etc.).
d. In keeping with heaven’s status as God’s habitation, the Bible uses the language of obscurity and inaccessibility to describe it. It is a realm obscured from human sight and removed from human access. Significantly, God must grant men both the sight of it and entrance into it (cf. God’s presence at Sinai and the Holy of Holies with Acts 7:54-56; Hebrews 11:8-16; Revelation 4:1, 15:5, 19:11, 21:25ff).
2. Heaven is God’s dwelling place, but specifically it is the realm in which God is present in relation to His creation. Most importantly, it speaks not just to where God is, but how He is with respect to His creation. With this understanding, two things should be obvious: The first is that heaven is a biblical concept having greater scope and significance than many Christians imagine. At the same time, God’s habitation must be conceived more broadly than the place we call “heaven.” Otherwise, what are we to make of Moses’ declaration in Psalm 90:1 or the insistence of the writer to the Hebrews (12:22-24)?
 
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Original Happy Camper

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Good questions to ponder. As for question 4, when a believer dies now, his soul goes to heaven. (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

I disagree with this statement.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Notice that the Lord did not give Adam a soul but he BECAME a living soul.
When God created man he gave him the breath of life (spirit) that is what returns to God at death.
breath of life = spirit
dust + spirit = Living Soul remove the spirit and there is no soul any more as the bible never mentions a dead persons soul going to heaven only the breath of live that God gave to mankind.

Ecclesiastes 12:7King James Version (KJV)
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 146 King James Version (KJV)
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Please show where in the Bible the soul goes to heaven if their thoughts perish and they do not praise the Lord.

The God I serve, at the resurrection, can put my thoughts and knowledge into my new body.
 
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Ron Gurley

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Residents of the SPIRIT REALM aka "HEAVEN"

1. PRE-EXISTING + INFINITE TRI-UNE GOD = SPIRIT!
2. "CREATED" SPIRIT ANGELS / "messengers' who ALWAYS do the will of God.
3. The immortal SPIRITS of Saved true believers...the "children of God" who ACCEPTED God's spiritual CALLING / DRAWING.

It is all about SPIRIT!

Acts 23:8
For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor an angel, nor a spirit, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.


 
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Sammy-San

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Heaven and Hell will both a a physical, material space. Scripture talks about Creation being restored and Heaven and Earth will become one.

How would you respond to these comments on Heaven?

Atoms decay. This means that everything we have observed from microbes to distant galaxies are all passing away, so the world which is eternal will be nothing like this one.

Living on earth is too worldy, too limited. Spiritual beings wont be limited by living on earth.

I dont believe anything physical could stay for eternity. Only God and God-likeness can be eternal, that is spirit.



 
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FrankDux

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Well, consider the two statements

" He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh "

" The Tabernacle will dwell among men "

Jesus is " the Tabernacle " who will " dwell among men "

ישב yashab {yaw-shab'} a primitive root; TWOT - 922; v AV - dwell 437, inhabitant 221, sit 172, abide 70, inhabit 39, down 26, remain 23, in 22, tarry 19, set 14, continue 5, place 7, still 5, taken 5, misc 23; 1088 1) to dwell, remain, sit, abide 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to sit, sit down 1a2) to be set 1a3) to remain, stay 1a4) to dwell, have one's abode 1b) (Niphal) to be inhabited 1c) (Piel) to set, place 1d) (Hiphil) 1d1) to cause to sit 1d2) to cause to abide, set 1d3) to cause to dwell 1d4) to cause (cities) to be inhabited 1d5) to marry (give an dwelling to) 1e) (Hophal) 1e1) to be inhabited 1e2) to make to dwell


I think the misunderstanding of heaven being a place separate from where we are now, is based on the misunderstanding of idiomatic speech

It would be like reading " He's in trouble " and interpreting it like " trouble " is a location " he " is " in ", when it's really a situation and not a place
 
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Sammy-San

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Well, consider the two statements

" He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh "

" The Tabernacle will dwell among men "

Jesus is " the Tabernacle " who will " dwell among men "

ישב yashab {yaw-shab'} a primitive root; TWOT - 922; v AV - dwell 437, inhabitant 221, sit 172, abide 70, inhabit 39, down 26, remain 23, in 22, tarry 19, set 14, continue 5, place 7, still 5, taken 5, misc 23; 1088 1) to dwell, remain, sit, abide 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to sit, sit down 1a2) to be set 1a3) to remain, stay 1a4) to dwell, have one's abode 1b) (Niphal) to be inhabited 1c) (Piel) to set, place 1d) (Hiphil) 1d1) to cause to sit 1d2) to cause to abide, set 1d3) to cause to dwell 1d4) to cause (cities) to be inhabited 1d5) to marry (give an dwelling to) 1e) (Hophal) 1e1) to be inhabited 1e2) to make to dwell


I think the misunderstanding of heaven being a place separate from where we are now, is based on the misunderstanding of idiomatic speech

It would be like reading " He's in trouble " and interpreting it like " trouble " is a location " he " is " in ", when it's really a situation and not a place

Heaven is not infinite?
 
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FrankDux

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There is also the mathematical congruence , along with the linguistic congruence

" Uru " being the city determinant in Akkadian writing of Jerusalem

" uru " being the flood ( as a word ) and also " seat " as in " throne "

But this is merely based on the " New Jerusalem " being a clever encoding of the distance from the earth to the Sun during a total eclipse, using Sumerian fractions as the basis for metrological conventions

2qvcpyg.jpg



:)
 
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FrankDux

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Heaven is not infinite?


I think it depends on how you are asking

If you assume the Strong's listings

שמים shamayim {shaw-mah'-yim} dual of an unused singular שמה shameh {shaw-meh'} from an unused root meaning to be lofty; TWOT - 2407a; n m AV - heaven 398, air 21, astrologers + 01895 1; 420 1) heaven, heavens, sky 1a) visible heavens, sky 1a1) as abode of the stars 1a2) as the visible universe, the sky, atmosphere, etc 1b) Heaven (as the abode of God)

It doesn't seem that unclear

but if you include the other words translated as " heaven ", the topic develops additional complexity

marom is taken to be equivalent to shamayim, iirc

shahak and rakia as well

galgal , though for example, meaning " wheel " is rendered as " heaven " in Psalms in the KJV, but as " whirlwind " in other versions

In my opinion this may stem from the Akkadian sarû , meaning "rotate" , " to circle ", " to whirl "

Cosmologically speaking

If you wanted to consider that we can only see the visible horizon in the local universe and actually have no proof how large the universe is beyond the horizon, I would say " sure , why not ? "

The universe could be a cube, we have no way of seeing the boundary outside of the horizon

If you wanted to say that God is infinite, then you assume that God exists in an infinite space ?

If God is infinite than where does everything else fit ?

then there is the use of " infinite " in the scriptures, which don't seem to imply some physical quantity in two verses ( Nobody sins non-stop from birth to death ), and potential infinity in another ( God's understanding )


Job 22:5 Is not thy wickedness great? and thine iniquities infinite?
Psa 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
Nah 3:9 Ethiopia and Egypt were her strength, and it was infinite; Put and Lubim were thy helpers.


Nahum, previously says:

Nah 3:4 Because of the multitude of the whoredoms of the wellfavoured harlot, the mistress of witchcrafts, that selleth nations through her whoredoms, and families through her witchcrafts.

Nah 3:5 Behold, I am against thee, saith the LORD of hosts; and I will discover thy skirts upon thy face, and I will shew the nations thy nakedness, and the kingdoms thy shame.

So considering it says the harlot's strength was Egypt and Ethiopia, and that it was " infinite ", it couldn't be more infinite than God's strength, therefore the use of " infinite " doesn't have the same connotations people think it does in scripture

iow, nobody has " infinite strength " except God
 
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SnowyMacie

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How would you respond to these comments on Heaven?









Heaven and Earth will become one, we will still have physical bodies and live in a physical world, but it will be "new and improved", like Jesus' body post-resurrection. I think the same will occur for the rest of Creation as well.
 
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