Heaven and Hell

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

they are places and states of being. in the world of spirits there is no difference between places and states of being. we already exist as spirits and are already surrounded by heaven and hell. for humans there is a back and forth interaction between this reality and that other one though most don't seem to notice that behind the curtain there is a lot going on.

the spiritual world is a very real place and you can notice the influences of it if you pay close attention to reality.

our celestial bodies are our souls. reality is more kin to mind which is a fundamental principle to reality and this is something that the modern world rejects. when you die that is considered the resurrection of the body or some call it "waking up from a dream".

hell can only be final if you choose it forever even though something in a person does change when they lose their flesh which makes it harder for them to change because reality becomes intensified in unknown ways. if I find out what ways I will say something on it. ah, like a dream in some ways some angel said. there are various moods that souls go through, various things in themselves they must face. I wish my mind could grasp the thoughts of the other world, I must find a way to understand clearly. I know that heaven is huge and there are many different things that they do. there is no end to the goodness and the things they do and for each soul all are eager to help them. hell also wishes to have them but their ways are not of love.

so all the experiences of this life we have now is the same in the other world because we already experience it but after the flesh is gone it is more reality than we are used to whilst in the flesh, that is why I feel retarded in this world, because of my dumb flesh, it can't be what it has always been ever since i came to this world. and that other world has all the things that are good of this world, only in better and more perfected forms.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, your coffee is getting cold...

 

[Colter]

I'm interested in the various opinions on here of Heaven and Hell, and what the Christian viewpoint is, is there a consensus?

For example - Heaven, is it an actual place, like a planet or is it something undefined, and is eternal life in a body such as we have now or is it purely as a spirit/ soul?

Is life eternal really life eternal?, I mean eternity is a very long time and we cannot conceptualise it, what do Christians think is meant by Life Eternal?

Hell - Does it really exist, is it an actual place or is it where spirits. souls go.

If I go to Hell, is that also for eternity?

I look forward to soem responses, which I shall treat with respect as I am interested in the beliefs and interpretations of Christians.

In my theology Hell is eternal death, no torture God. Heaven consists of different planets that we progress through as we become more and more spirit, eventually achieving safe passage to the presence of the Universal Father on Paradise. From there we return to the universe abodes for an unrevealed destiny of service on Gods plan.

 

[jayem]

There really is a Hell. I've been there. It's a tourist spot on Grand Cayman Island. When you take the shore excursion during your Caribbean cruise, the bus always stops there. It was named for some rock formations that vaguely resemble flames. The only other thing in Hell is a gift shop and post office. Where you can mail postcards that are postmarked from Hell.

The rum cakes are very good, though.

 

[Noxot]

Do you have any evidence for this?

nah because you don't believe NDE's and psychedelics are a type of proof. life is the only proof for life and we all experience reality as much as we can.

the funny thing about evidence is that sometimes it still becomes subject to interpretation. in the scientific sphere an example of such would be the the double slit experiment.

 

[HitchSlap]

nah because you don't believe NDE's and psychedelics are a type of proof. life is the only proof for life and we all experience reality as much as we can.

So it's only "evidence" if I believe in it?

 

[Noxot]

So it's only "evidence" if I believe in it?

in some ways yes since you have a subjective mind

 

[HitchSlap]

in some ways yes since you have a subjective mind

So what's the best way to determine if my beliefs are justified, then?

 

[Noxot]

So what's the best way to determine if my beliefs are justified, then?

I don't know because i'm not you.

 

[HitchSlap]

I don't know because i'm not you.

But there's only one reality. Surely you have a suggestion or method that best helps us determine what's true. What's real for you, is real for me.
I'm simply asking what's the best way to arrive at true beliefs? It's not a trick question.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

in some ways yes since you have a subjective mind

Do you believe that logical fallacies invalidate an argument, no matter who is presenting the argument?

 

[Noxot]

But there's only one reality. Surely you have a suggestion or method that best helps us determine what's true. What's real for you, is real for me.
I'm simply asking what's the best way to arrive at true beliefs? It's not a trick question.

Do you believe that logical fallacies invalidate an argument, no matter who is presenting the argument?

if you knew reality you would no longer seek for it or play logic games

 

[Noxot]

sorry guys but i'm pretty much overwhelmed right now. I wish you could relate to me but how could anyone ever see what i see or experience what i experience? I know it won't make sense to any of you but the truth is that nothing is required to know God but God and so i can't help any of you, only God can.

 

[HitchSlap]

if you knew reality you would no longer seek for it or play logic games

I'm trying to have an honest discussion with you. If you're not interested, just say so.

 

[Noxot]

I'm trying to have an honest discussion with you. If you're not interested, just say so.

I guess it just seems that beliefs are absurd as are people who keep trying to use logical constructs to know reality. that is because there are other ways of knowledge that don't involve thinking about it but just experiencing it. like I said before, most don't seem to notice reality and I think this is in part because they won't stop thinking about things enough for them to pay enough attention to what is going on.

I see under your avatar it says "saved by science". I don't know if I can relate to someone whos strongest beliefs are about things like mathematical equations. what is there to believe about that? nothing, i'm very well aware that they exist but they are really not that important.



and as for the other guy, sorry but i'm not well versed in the long list of rules that people make up that constitute what they believe to be logic. I probably abide by some of them but i'm not well versed in such things. to me those kinds of systems of thoughts tend to be too limiting in a certain sense that i will try to briefly explain. people who don't have a strong moral compass tend to run to the law to tell them what is right and what is wrong. in like manner it appears to me that people who can't think for themselves enough tend to run to rule books to tell them how to think. now i'm not saying the rule books are always bad... but if people want to play lawyer, as some do, then i'm not gonna play that with you because it's irrational and not at all attempting to understand what i try to communicate.

I understand that good intentioned people who have a certain kind of intelligence are well versed in such things and they use them as part of their language to try to have a conversation with others. i just find it hard to read a persons mind when they say something as abstract and blurry as "logical fallacy" since that in part has to do with what a person judges to be rational or irrational.

maybe tomorrow I will be able to more clearly understand and have a decent conversation.

 

[HitchSlap]

I guess it just seems that beliefs are absurd as are people who keep trying to use logical constructs to know reality. that is because there are other ways of knowledge that don't involve thinking about it but just experiencing it. like I said before, most don't seem to notice reality and I think this is in part because they won't stop thinking about things enough for them to pay enough attention to what is going on.

I see under your avatar it says "saved by science". I don't know if I can relate to someone whos strongest beliefs are about things like mathematical equations. what is there to believe about that? nothing, i'm very well aware that they exist but they are really not that important.



and as for the other guy, sorry but i'm not well versed in the long list of rules that people make up that constitute what they believe to be logic. I probably abide by some of them but i'm not well versed in such things. to me those kinds of systems of thoughts tend to be too limiting in a certain sense that i will try to briefly explain. people who don't have a strong moral compass tend to run to the law to tell them what is right and what is wrong. in like manner it appears to me that people who can't think for themselves enough tend to run to rule books to tell them how to think. now i'm not saying the rule books are always bad... but if people want to play lawyer, as some do, then i'm not gonna play that with you because it's irrational and not at all attempting to understand what i try to communicate.

I understand that good intentioned people who have a certain kind of intelligence are well versed in such things and they use them as part of their language to try to have a conversation with others. i just find it hard to read a persons mind when they say something as abstract and blurry as "logical fallacy" since that in part has to do with what a person judges to be rational or irrational.

maybe tomorrow I will be able to more clearly understand and have a decent conversation.

Please don't take offense, but you seem to be rambling a bit here. If you're tired, get some rest, and perhaps we can continue at a later time?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

if you knew reality you would no longer seek for it or play logic games

Sooooo... is that a "yes" or a "no" to my question? And is your lack of an actual response due to the fact that you know your real answer doesn't help your position?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

i just find it hard to read a persons mind when they say something as abstract and blurry as "logical fallacy" since that in part has to do with what a person judges to be rational or irrational.

Oh for pete sakes, you're in the Philosophy section. The phrase "logical fallacy" shouldn't be "abstract and blurry" to anyone with even the smallest understanding of Philosophy.

Logical fallacies are fallacies because they demonstrably fail to support the claim. There's no individual judgement about them at all. If you believe that Argumentum ad Hominem isn't a fallacy, you're demonstrably wrong.

 

[Noxot]

Oh for pete sakes, you're in the Philosophy section. The phrase "logical fallacy" shouldn't be "abstract and blurry" to anyone with even the smallest understanding of Philosophy.

Logical fallacies are fallacies because they demonstrably fail to support the claim. There's no individual judgement about them at all. If you believe that Argumentum ad Hominem isn't a fallacy, you're demonstrably wrong.

your language makes as much sense to me as I mine does to you. I like how the atheist in this thread keep trying to insult me.

contrary to your beliefs about what a person must know before he can think, I actually don't understand the language you are speaking very well at all. just pat yourselves on the back and call me stupid if that will help you be at ease.

it's all good fun though. I hate how off topic this thread is becoming but I hope no authoritarian wishes to try to get me to go back on topic. I like trying to think and having a conversation even if I can't relate much to the people I try to speak with. I wish the english language was more fluid and practical and less legalistic. it is annoying trying to abide by the rules of speaking proper English especially after I have forgotten so many of them. sadly words are so cumbersome and they seem to take forever before they start to properly express truth.

 

[Noxot]

Do you believe that logical fallacies invalidate an argument, no matter who is presenting the argument?

what are you assuming is a logical fallacy? I suppose I can still try to take a crack at your question though i don't understand what exactly you are trying to get me to say or agree or disagree to you about, or whatever other reason it is that you said this to me.

what is a logical fallacy? how do they have the power to invalidate an argument? does it matter who is presenting an argument or does it not? there are so many things to think about and to try to know.

to me that is just a word that has no meaning until I have more context. that is why i asked for a concrete example of what you mean rather than to leave it as a blurry and abstract idea in your mind that you assume I know about. how I see it atm is that saying "logical fallacy" is already an assumption about a specific concrete reality. is a logical fallacy something like 1+1= 1 ? because depending on what someone is talking about that is true or false. so then, what is this magical logical fallacy in the sky you are talking about?

 

[SteveB28]

Both concepts are inventions of men.