Heaven and Hell

[Dave RP]

I'm interested in the various opinions on here of Heaven and Hell, and what the Christian viewpoint is, is there a consensus?

For example - Heaven, is it an actual place, like a planet or is it something undefined, and is eternal life in a body such as we have now or is it purely as a spirit/ soul?

Is life eternal really life eternal?, I mean eternity is a very long time and we cannot conceptualise it, what do Christians think is meant by Life Eternal?

Hell - Does it really exist, is it an actual place or is it where spirits. souls go.

If I go to Hell, is that also for eternity?

I look forward to soem responses, which I shall treat with respect as I am interested in the beliefs and interpretations of Christians.

 

[juvenissun]

I'm interested in the various opinions on here of Heaven and Hell, and what the Christian viewpoint is, is there a consensus?

For example - Heaven, is it an actual place, like a planet or is it something undefined, and is eternal life in a body such as we have now or is it purely as a spirit/ soul?

Is life eternal really life eternal?, I mean eternity is a very long time and we cannot conceptualise it, what do Christians think is meant by Life Eternal?

Hell - Does it really exist, is it an actual place or is it where spirits. souls go.

If I go to Hell, is that also for eternity?

I look forward to soem responses, which I shall treat with respect as I am interested in the beliefs and interpretations of Christians.

Heaven is a real place where real people (body+spirit) live in there.

 

[JackRT]

Heaven is a real place where real people (body+spirit) live in there.

That, of course, is the traditional theistic understanding of heaven. It is not the only possible Christian understanding.

I sometimes think that the problem lies in how we view God. We are individual personalities interested in other persons and that is how a great many people envision God. They see God as being personally interested in them and concerned about them. This personal God sometimes intervenes in their world to work his will. This God is also very sensitive to their behavior and sometimes becomes jealous and angry and even genocidal. This is the theistic God of the bible and it is this theistic conception of God that I reject. Technically this would make me an atheist which simply means “not a theist'.

Perhaps individual human life with all its evil and suffering and joy and heroism is of no interest to God. Perhaps God is more interested in planets or stars or galaxies and life is just an accidental consequence of it all. I am coming to think of God as the 'fabric of nature' in which we 'live, move and have our being' and a God that is both impersonal and yet at least mildly, perhaps even accidentally, benevolent. This is known as panentheism. To craft a metaphor, think of God as the sun, impersonal and yet radiating heat. The planets exist only as a consequence of the sun's presence and life on at least one of those planets exists only as a consequence of the sun's warmth. The sun didn't do this deliberately but only because of its nature. We as human life forms are a consequence too. Think of God's love for creation as analogous to the warmth broadcast by the sun --- impersonal but life giving and even life transforming. A few years ago I composed a prayer to try to express these thoughts:

"As the sunflower turns its face to the radiance of the sun
So do we turn our souls to the radiance of God's love.
May that love transform and energize our beings
So that we may be able to see the spark of divinity
That exists within every human being
Even the most depraved or indifferent.
May we always deal with each other in peace
And in hope
And in LOVE.
So be it."

Having said all that, I remain a Christian because I am simply in love with the authentic life and teachings of the historical Jesus.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

... Having said all that, I remain a Christian because I am simply in love with the authentic life and teachings of the historical Jesus.

But didn't Jesus teach that God is more than just an impersonal, mildly benevolent universe? Can you be a Christian without believing what Christ said about God and heaven?

 

[JackRT]

But didn't Jesus teach that God is more than just an impersonal, mildly benevolent universe? Can you be a Christian without believing what Christ said about God and heaven?

Yes.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Yes.

OK, that's interesting; thanks.

 

[Chriliman]

That, of course, is the traditional theistic understanding of heaven. It is not the only possible Christian understanding.

I sometimes think that the problem lies in how we view God. We are individual personalities interested in other persons and that is how a great many people envision God. They see God as being personally interested in them and concerned about them. This personal God sometimes intervenes in their world to work his will. This God is also very sensitive to their behavior and sometimes becomes jealous and angry and even genocidal. This is the theistic God of the bible and it is this theistic conception of God that I reject. Technically this would make me an atheist which simply means “not a theist'.

Perhaps individual human life with all its evil and suffering and joy and heroism is of no interest to God. Perhaps God is more interested in planets or stars or galaxies and life is just an accidental consequence of it all. I am coming to think of God as the 'fabric of nature' in which we 'live, move and have our being' and a God that is both impersonal and yet at least mildly, perhaps even accidentally, benevolent. This is known as panentheism. To craft a metaphor, think of God as the sun, impersonal and yet radiating heat. The planets exist only as a consequence of the sun's presence and life on at least one of those planets exists only as a consequence of the sun's warmth. The sun didn't do this deliberately but only because of its nature. We as human life forms are a consequence too. Think of God's love for creation as analogous to the warmth broadcast by the sun --- impersonal but life giving and even life transforming. A few years ago I composed a prayer to try to express these thoughts:

"As the sunflower turns its face to the radiance of the sun
So do we turn our souls to the radiance of God's love.
May that love transform and energize our beings
So that we may be able to see the spark of divinity
That exists within every human being
Even the most depraved or indifferent.
May we always deal with each other in peace
And in hope
And in LOVE.
So be it."

Having said all that, I remain a Christian because I am simply in love with the authentic life and teachings of the historical Jesus.

Just a thought; to say God is not deeply personally interested in each and every individual that He's created is puting limits on God's capacity to love all of His creation in the deepest way possible.

To tie that thought back to the OP; to accept God's love is heaven. To reject God's love is hell. This is why He tells us to choose now, while we can.

 

[expos4ever]

I believe:

1. Heaven: strongly suspect it is not a "place" in the sense we normally use when we speak of "places". I believe it can be best thought of a "resting" area where the redeemed await a future resurrection of their bodies (see point 3, below). I think there is a reasonable chance that the redeemed are not even conscious as they rest in heaven;

2. Hell: No such thing, at least in the traditional sense. I believe the Bible presents a picture where the "lost" are ultimately annihilated. Yes, the image of fire and the lost being cast into fire is indeed there, but fire typically consumes what is cast into it.

3. The ultimate destiny of the redeemed is an embodied one - arms, legs, heads, the whole deal. Jesus is the prototype in this respect. And the redeemed populate a redeemed and transformed physical cosmos - no floating around on clouds in a disembodied state. This life will indeed be eternal. While the thought of living forever might seem "exhausting", I suspect this is only because we live in a fallen world where we experience pain, decay, and aging. All these damaging forces would be gone for those who have transformed (perfected) bodies in a transformed (perfected) cosmos.

 

[Dave RP]

I believe:

1. Heaven: strongly suspect it is not a "place" in the sense we normally use when we speak of "places". I believe it can be best thought of a "resting" area where the redeemed await a future resurrection of their bodies (see point 3, below). I think there is a reasonable chance that the redeemed are not even conscious as they rest in heaven;

2. Hell: No such thing, at least in the traditional sense. I believe the Bible presents a picture where the "lost" are ultimately annihilated. Yes, the image of fire and the lost being cast into fire is indeed there, but fire typically consumes what is cast into it.

3. The ultimate destiny of the redeemed is an embodied one - arms, legs, heads, the whole deal. Jesus is the prototype in this respect. And the redeemed populate a redeemed and transformed physical cosmos - no floating around on clouds in a disembodied state. This life will indeed be eternal. While the thought of living forever might seem "exhausting", I suspect this is only because we live in a fallen world where we experience pain, decay, and aging. All these damaging forces would be gone for those who have transformed (perfected) bodies in a transformed (perfected) cosmos.

OK, so your belief is that heaven is a temporary arrangement until resurrection, does that mean that one is judged BEFORE going to this temporary heaven, if so what is the bit about Jesus returning to judge everyone about?

As for hell and fire, fire is more of a transformer than a destroyer, and after fire there is often rebirth/ re=growth, does that fit in anywhere?

 

[Dave RP]

Heaven is a real place where real people (body+spirit) live in there.

Thanks for the response. Please can I ask your view - does one go to Heaven immediately upon death? I was told that Jesus will return to judge everyone in which case everyone who died before Jesus return has not yet been judged, what happens to them in the meantime?

Also if you don't mind me asking, what happens to those who don't go to heaven, do they just go nowhere or do they go somewhere else, i.e. hell?

 

[juvenissun]

Thanks for the response. Please can I ask your view - does one go to Heaven immediately upon death? I was told that Jesus will return to judge everyone in which case everyone who died before Jesus return has not yet been judged, what happens to them in the meantime?

I don't know. There are different interpretations. I am curious, but not worried.

 

[juvenissun]

Also if you don't mind me asking, what happens to those who don't go to heaven, do they just go nowhere or do they go somewhere else, i.e. hell?

Heaven is a relatively small place. There are much larger spaces outside of the Heaven. One of those places is called the Hell.

Different people will go to different places.

 

[Dave RP]

I don't know. There are different interpretations. I am curious, but not worried.

Do you have to believe in Jesus to go to Heaven, or will being "good" suffice?

 

[juvenissun]

Do you have to believe in Jesus to go to Heaven, or will being "good" suffice?

Good is hard to define.
Believe in Jesus (is God) is more clear cut.

 

[expos4ever]

OK, so your belief is that heaven is a temporary arrangement until resurrection, does that mean that one is judged BEFORE going to this temporary heaven, if so what is the bit about Jesus returning to judge everyone about?

I concede that I have not thought this out in detail, but I believe those in heaven are judged in the future when Jesus returns (as you say). Are you going to ask me how it makes sense for them to already be in heaven, in advance of the great universal judgment? I can give an answer of sorts to that question.

As for hell and fire, fire is more of a transformer than a destroyer, and after fire there is often rebirth/ re=growth, does that fit in anywhere?

I certainly agree that fire does appear in Scripture as an agent of transformation. However, I think there is enough evidence to suggest that images of the "lost" being subjected to fire is indeed a way of indicating they will be destroyed. However, I am open to being convinced otherwise.

 

[Dave RP]

I concede that I have not thought this out in detail, but I believe those in heaven are judged in the future when Jesus returns (as you say). Are you going to ask me how it makes sense for them to already be in heaven, in advance of the great universal judgment? I can give an answer of sorts to that question.


I certainly agree that fire does appear in Scripture as an agent of transformation. However, I think there is enough evidence to suggest that images of the "lost" being subjected to fire is indeed a way of indicating they will be destroyed. However, I am open to being convinced otherwise.

Yep, I am going to ask how it is that they can be in heaven before Jesus returns or before they're judged. On that basis EVERYONE must go to heaven and then await Jesus return, which of course might be a billion years away, in which case we'll all get a long bit of "extra" life?

 

[expos4ever]

Yep, I am going to ask how it is that they can be in heaven before Jesus returns or before they're judged. On that basis EVERYONE must go to heaven and then await Jesus return, which of course might be a billion years away, in which case we'll all get a long bit of "extra" life?

Let me think on this and I plan to get back to you. If I forget, please post again in this thread (I monitor it).

 

[Dave RP]

Let me think on this and I plan to get back to you. If I forget, please post again in this thread (I monitor it).

Thanks very much, whilst I'm asking, suppose in this interim period in heaven - what happens if someone then repents and accepts Jesus before he returns, will they then be allowed to stay?

 

[Noxot]

they are places and states of being. in the world of spirits there is no difference between places and states of being. we already exist as spirits and are already surrounded by heaven and hell. for humans there is a back and forth interaction between this reality and that other one though most don't seem to notice that behind the curtain there is a lot going on.

the spiritual world is a very real place and you can notice the influences of it if you pay close attention to reality.

our celestial bodies are our souls. reality is more kin to mind which is a fundamental principle to reality and this is something that the modern world rejects. when you die that is considered the resurrection of the body or some call it "waking up from a dream".

hell can only be final if you choose it forever even though something in a person does change when they lose their flesh which makes it harder for them to change because reality becomes intensified in unknown ways. if I find out what ways I will say something on it. ah, like a dream in some ways some angel said. there are various moods that souls go through, various things in themselves they must face. I wish my mind could grasp the thoughts of the other world, I must find a way to understand clearly. I know that heaven is huge and there are many different things that they do. there is no end to the goodness and the things they do and for each soul all are eager to help them. hell also wishes to have them but their ways are not of love.

so all the experiences of this life we have now is the same in the other world because we already experience it but after the flesh is gone it is more reality than we are used to whilst in the flesh, that is why I feel retarded in this world, because of my dumb flesh, it can't be what it has always been ever since i came to this world. and that other world has all the things that are good of this world, only in better and more perfected forms.

 

[HitchSlap]

they are places and states of being. in the world of spirits there is no difference between places and states of being. we already exist as spirits and are already surrounded by heaven and hell. for humans there is a back and forth interaction between this reality and that other one though most don't seem to notice that behind the curtain there is a lot going on.

the spiritual world is a very real place and you can notice the influences of it if you pay close attention to reality.

our celestial bodies are our souls. reality is more kin to mind which is a fundamental principle to reality and this is something that the modern world rejects. when you die that is considered the resurrection of the body or some call it "waking up from a dream".

hell can only be final if you choose it forever even though something in a person does change when they lose their flesh which makes it harder for them to change because reality becomes intensified in unknown ways. if I find out what ways I will say something on it. ah, like a dream in some ways some angel said. there are various moods that souls go through, various things in themselves they must face. I wish my mind could grasp the thoughts of the other world, I must find a way to understand clearly. I know that heaven is huge and there are many different things that they do. there is no end to the goodness and the things they do and for each soul all are eager to help them. hell also wishes to have them but their ways are not of love.

so all the experiences of this life we have now is the same in the other world because we already experience it but after the flesh is gone it is more reality than we are used to whilst in the flesh, that is why I feel retarded in this world, because of my dumb flesh, it can't be what it has always been ever since i came to this world. and that other world has all the things that are good of this world, only in better and more perfected forms.

Do you have any evidence for this?