Heaven and Hell

[Rosencrantz]

I tried to post this in the apologetics forum, but since I'm a n00b, I'm not allowed. So let's talk about it as though it's metaphysics. That's philosophy. Here is what I tried to post there:

Here's what's not right about heaven and hell.

Assume they are real. They both exist objectively. If you are not a Christian, you will go to hell. No matter what. If you are a christian, and presumably follow the faith like a good little sheep, then you get to go to heaven.

So what are heaven and hell? I have heard a number of descriptions, and as the years go by, they get more and more vague. Let's go with the idea that hell is eternal torment, and heaven is eternal bliss.

The problem is eternity. I don't know if any of you have ever tried to wrap your brain around concept like eternity, but go ahead and really give it a shot. It's impossible. Eternity is REALLY long, my friends. It's really, amazingly, impossibly long.

In fact, I would assert that it is so long, that there is literally NO torment so awful (assuming you can't die again in hell and go to a worse hell for it or whatever) that you wouldn't simply get used to it after a while. It would get boring. It would get tedious. You would probably go insane after the first hundred years, and the next few eons would be nothing but gibbering insanity. There is a certain comfort in insanity, you have to admit.

The same goes for heaven. If heaven goes on for eternity, then it only stands to reason that it will also get pretty boring. There can't possibly be a pleasure so great that after a few exposures to it, you wouldn't simply become bored with it or addicted to it. Like heroin, or nicotine. It becomes boring and routine and destructive, even.

That is, of course, unless they take away your free will--"they" being, presumably, God, or Satan, or whoever. Yeah, make it so that they can't go insane or get bored. But then what do you become? You're not a free-acting agent. You're not even human anymore. There's nothing but an empty host. You've lost anything worth punishing with eternal damnation, and you've lost anything worth rewarding with eternal paradise.

Face it, humans thrive on ups and downs. The only thing that makes ups worthwhile are downs, and the only thing that makes downs so bad is the ups.

What possible incentive is the threat of hell or the promise of heaven in light of this?

Just wondering,
Your friend,
Rosencrantz

 

[SonicBOOM]

Rosencrantz[/left];38215712]

Here's what's not right about heaven and hell.

Assume they are real. They both exist objectively. If you are not a Christian, you will go to hell. No matter what. If you are a christian, and presumably follow the faith like a good little sheep, then you get to go to heaven.

I know this is the belief of popular Christianity.... however I have yet to notice this quoted by Jesus himself. All his parables regarding heaven and hell are spoken with a sense of justice. In the parable of the sheep and goats, the ones who go to hell are those who "don't feed the hungry and clothe the naked". In the parable of the rich man and lazareth the one who goes to hell is the rich man because he lived the life of a rich glutton while lazareth took table scraps. When the rich young ruler asks about heaven Jesus answers him "if you want in? Obey the commandments".

Now I believe when someone comes to faith they truly are saved from their sins.... but not by some magic spell. They are saved from their sins because they adopt new hearts and they lose their desire to sin. They come and repent for all their evils and they are cleansed... and than they lose the desire to sin.

a person doesn't go to hell for not believing the right logic. The person goes to hell because he lives in such an evil way and he refuses to repent of it. So at his death, God will tell him "I gave you your entire life to change how you live your life, all you've done with your life is abuse and oppress the helpless, tell me one good reason why I should bring you in here"

now we are saved by grace... however this grace can only come when we acknowledge that we really do need it! The only way to acknowledge that is to repent of our sinfulness. And don't be fooled! We all have some evil in us. some more than others but still it remains the same. The more we are willing to let God turn our hearts pure, the less evil we will become in the long run. i know this true in my own life and I bear testimony to it.

 

[Rosencrantz]

Umm... yeah, but... How does that answer my question? How does that make hell an undesirable place and heaven such a great place?

Is there really an incentive not to sin, other than the intrinsic value of being a good and decent person (something that has absolutely NOTHING to do with religious doctrine).

 

[SonicBOOM]

Umm... yeah, but... How does that answer my question? How does that make hell an undesirable place and heaven such a great place?

Is there really an incentive not to sin, other than the intrinsic value of being a good and decent person (something that has absolutely NOTHING to do with religious doctrine).

I'm sorry I was in a rush and I guess I only read the first part of what you said.

ok first quistion: Why is hell so bad?

Hell is described mostly as the place where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth". Unless someone would over-anylize this passage, this looks like a response one would only make if they entered into a place that is far from pleasent.

second quistion: how is heaven so good?

Jesus told this parable to answer this quistion.

Matthew 13: 44-46 "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it"


quite frankly... if someone longs to sell everything he has in order to purchase something! Than that something has to be pretty darn good.

third quistion: what does it benefit not to sin?

it doesn't really benefit you in any way as much as it honors and respects your neighbor and God himself. I'm sure you have known great evil in your life [we all have]. That alone is enough to motivate someone not to sin. Do YOU wanna treat someone in the same way you have been treated so cruelly?

other than the intrinsic value of being a good and decent person (something that has absolutely NOTHING to do with religious doctrine).

I'm not sure where you get this. Morel decency and good living is one of the main focuses of ANY religion [not just Christianity]. Buddhists follow the 5 pillars of morality! Morality and religious doctrine are almost intertwined with each-other.

 

[SedjmNeter]

P.E.A.C.E and Blessings...

I'm not sure where you get this. Morel decency and good living is one of the main focuses of ANY religion [not just Christianity]. Buddhists follow the 5 pillars of morality! Morality and religious doctrine are almost intertwined with each-other.

Eye dont think he's saying that Religions have nothing to do with being moral in them, he's just saying that the ability to act with moral decency doesn't depend on whether or not one is religious.

SHEM HETEP

 

[SonicBOOM]

P.E.A.C.E and Blessings...



Eye dont think he's saying that Religions have nothing to do with being moral in them, he's just saying that the ability to act with moral decency doesn't depend on whether or not one is religious.

SHEM HETEP

ok that makes sense if that's what he meant than I agree... but I think religious beliefs can be used as a sort of guide to becoming morel. Like what Paul's says "how would I know what sin is? Except by the law". I by no means mean to say that sin and morality and law is the MAIN focus of religion.... I just mean that you will find no where else a divine law that is not written by humans... can you really trust a man-made morel standard? History shows that this is usually a fatal mistake.

also.... I think without an idea of a sort of supreme mind. We are left with morality without justice [which is a REAL problem as no one would disagree]. I think God is in the business of taking our hearts and purifying them with the every day steps of our lives. Though this thread is about heaven and hell... not morality. so lets stay on task whats heaven and hell got to do with morality? Everything! Hell is God's means of bringing justice... and as has been said there are many people who indeed hunger and thirst for it.

I must admit though that the subject itself greatly confuses me also... so if anyone finds my posts confusing this is probably why. These type of questions are always hard.

 

[Teufelhund]

Of course we cannot comprehend the idea of infinite suffering, because we are incapable of comprehending anything that is infinite. We humans are finite I occupy a certain amount of space in this infinite reality, my brain cells perform a certain number of calculations per second, thus we can assume that heaven and hell both may be infinite, but beyond our comprehension.

 

[elcapitan]

I tried to post this in the apologetics forum, but since I'm a n00b, I'm not allowed. So let's talk about it as though it's metaphysics. That's philosophy. Here is what I tried to post there:

Here's what's not right about heaven and hell.

Assume they are real. They both exist objectively. If you are not a Christian, you will go to hell. No matter what. If you are a christian, and presumably follow the faith like a good little sheep, then you get to go to heaven.

So what are heaven and hell? I have heard a number of descriptions, and as the years go by, they get more and more vague. Let's go with the idea that hell is eternal torment, and heaven is eternal bliss.

The problem is eternity. I don't know if any of you have ever tried to wrap your brain around concept like eternity, but go ahead and really give it a shot. It's impossible. Eternity is REALLY long, my friends. It's really, amazingly, impossibly long.

In fact, I would assert that it is so long, that there is literally NO torment so awful (assuming you can't die again in hell and go to a worse hell for it or whatever) that you wouldn't simply get used to it after a while. It would get boring. It would get tedious. You would probably go insane after the first hundred years, and the next few eons would be nothing but gibbering insanity. There is a certain comfort in insanity, you have to admit.

Unless, of course, insanity has a biological basis. Assuming that, in Hell, we have "souls" but no material bodies to render us insane, we can't go insane.

While we're at it, pain has a biological basis too, so how can a soul feel pain?. Go figure.
Anyway, it only matters if you believe in the contradictory idea that an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God condemns his flawed creations to eternal suffering (and often for arbitrary reasons).

The same goes for heaven. If heaven goes on for eternity, then it only stands to reason that it will also get pretty boring. There can't possibly be a pleasure so great that after a few exposures to it, you wouldn't simply become bored with it or addicted to it. Like heroin, or nicotine. It becomes boring and routine and destructive, even.

Once again, tolerance to drugs and pleasure (i.e. dopamine), are biological, not of the "soul"(assuming it exists). How can a soul feel pleasure?

At least the idea of heaven is consistent with the idea of an all-loving God.

That is, of course, unless they take away your free will--"they" being, presumably, God, or Satan, or whoever. Yeah, make it so that they can't go insane or get bored. But then what do you become? You're not a free-acting agent. You're not even human anymore. There's nothing but an empty host. You've lost anything worth punishing with eternal damnation, and you've lost anything worth rewarding with eternal paradise.

Perhaps we're already in that condition.

 

[SonicBOOM]

actually I have to disagree with you about our souls and regards to pleasure and pain. I think most of the "emotional torment" or "emotional highs" are our souls themselves experiencing pleasure or pain. I think real and true pleasure and pain is experienced deep in our souls. If someone hits you... your body heals over time. however... if someone who loves you hits you. Your soul will take years to recover from the emotional wound even though your body heals from the physical wound rather quickly.

 

[elcapitan]

I just mean that you will find no where else a divine law that is not written by humans... can you really trust a man-made morel standard?

Some of us would argue that Biblical law is a man-made moral standard. God didn't deliver the KJV on a cloud descending from heaven, you know.

History shows that this is usually a fatal mistake.

<sarcasm>

Yes, because God's law has been flawless* so far.

*If you take exception to the crusades, various other relgious wars in Europe, the inquisistion, the conversion of germanic tribes at the penalty of death, witch trials in Europe and America, the conquest and enslavement of native Americans, and the Biblically- justified African slave trade.

</sarcasm>

Practically cultures developed similar ideas regarding morality (don't kill, don't cheat on your wife, etc.)
If there's a logical reason to believe that Biblical law isn't less man-made than the others, I haven't seen it yet.

also.... I think without an idea of a sort of supreme mind. We are left with morality without justice [which is a REAL problem as no one would disagree]. I think God is in the business of taking our hearts and purifying them with the every day steps of our lives. Though this thread is about heaven and hell... not morality. so lets stay on task whats heaven and hell got to do with morality? Everything! Hell is God's means of bringing justice... and as has been said there are many people who indeed hunger and thirst for it.

I think you'll find that a lot of people desire to be good without the need for heavenly reward or out of fear of eternal punishment. Are you doing so only for the promise of getting a cosmic doggie treat for your obediance?

Anyway, I don't see how Heaven and Hell can be justice. Sounds to me like infinte consequences for finite actions.

The "justice" for a finite, limited action is to burn for eternity? How is that consistent with an all-loving God?

 

[elcapitan]

actually I have to disagree with you about our souls and regards to pleasure and pain. I think most of the "emotional torment" or "emotional highs" are our souls themselves experiencing pleasure or pain. I think real and true pleasure and pain is experienced deep in our souls. If someone hits you... your body heals over time. however... if someone who loves you hits you. Your soul will take years to recover from the emotional wound even though your body heals from the physical wound rather quickly.

Emotional pain and pleasure are biological too.

Do you think prozac works by interacting with the soul? Of course it doesn't; what it does is affect serotonin, a neurotransmitter.

Maybe you don't consider this to be "real", since you've already defined "real" pleasure and pain as being experienced in the soul.

And what about people who had major behavioral changes after having lobotomies or brain damage? Are their immaterial souls injured by physical objects?

Do you care to prove your assertions?

 

[SonicBOOM]

Some of us would argue that Biblical law is a man-made moral standard. God didn't deliver the KJV on a cloud descending from heaven, you know.


<sarcasm>

Yes, because God's law has been flawless* so far.

*If you take exception to the crusades, various other relgious wars in Europe, the inquisistion, the conversion of germanic tribes at the penalty of death, witch trials in Europe and America, the conquest and enslavement of native Americans, and the Biblically- justified African slave trade.

</sarcasm>

Practically cultures developed similar ideas regarding morality (don't kill, don't cheat on your wife, etc.)
If there's a logical reason to believe that Biblical law isn't less man-made than the others, I haven't seen it yet.

lol!!! I realize that but i was kind of referring to the idea of a man-made law in itself. No human being is more or less flawed than the next. How can a 100% flawed human create a morel system that is supposed to help 100% flawed humans. That's asking a blind man to lead a blind man. In order to get unflawed morality we must look to something higher than humans.

I think you'll find that a lot of people desire to be good without the need for heavenly reward or out of fear of eternal punishment. Are you doing so only for the promise of getting a cosmic doggie treat for your obediance?

you misunderstood my point. All humans are on the same level. So when it comes to justice we have a problem. If there really is a pure morality than we find that most humans have broken that and have left many victims in their path. Without a being higher than humans that can execute higher justice than we are left with a morality without justice. If that's the case than it's better to not even have morality. It's like feeling hunger when you have no food to eat.

Anyway, I don't see how Heaven and Hell can be justice. Sounds to me like infinte consequences for finite actions.

The "justice" for a finite, limited action is to burn for eternity? How is that consistent with an all-loving God?

I agree with you here. I have alot of issues with hell doctrines. my beliefs of heaven and hell rest on one sole belief. The belief that God is just. If God is truly just than he will make the right choice whether I know the truth or not.

 

[SonicBOOM]

Emotional pain and pleasure are biological too.

Do you think prozac works by interacting with the soul? Of course it doesn't; what it does is affect serotonin, a neurotransmitter.

Maybe you don't consider this to be "real", since you've already defined "real" pleasure and pain as being experienced in the soul.

And what about people who had major behavioral changes after having lobotomies or brain damage? Are their immaterial souls injured by physical objects?

Do you care to prove your assertions?

I believe the body, soul, and spirit are intertwined with each-other. so what effects one part will effect the other. The soul, in itself, is unseen. So I can't prove it, but neither can you disprove it. anything that is unseen is beyond proof.... it sounds like a copout... but I assure you it makes sense if you humbly consider it.

 

[elcapitan]

lol!!! I realize that but i was kind of referring to the idea of a man-made law in itself. No human being is more or less flawed than the next. How can a 100% flawed human create a morel system that is supposed to help 100% flawed humans. That's asking a blind man to lead a blind man. In order to get unflawed morality we must look to something higher than humans.

To use your analogy, how can a blind man "look" for something higher? If there is a higher moral system, how are we, as flawed beings, sble to know and recognize that it is a higher moral law?

you misunderstood my point. All humans are on the same level. So when it comes to justice we have a problem. If there really is a pure morality than we find that most humans have broken that and have left many victims in their path. Without a being higher than humans that can execute higher justice than we are left with a morality without justice. If that's the case than it's better to not even have morality. It's like feeling hunger when you have no food to eat.

Even if there is a higher being that can execute higher justice in the afterlife, He tends not to intervene with things here on Earth anymore. Heavenly justice for Earthly actions is like buying a hairbrush for someone who just shaved their head. Once you leave the Earth, will the justice on Earth really matter anymore? e.g. Does getting justice for being robbed of possessions matter to you if you are in heaven?

It's true that things can never be perfect on Earth, but without morality, things would be worse.




I agree with you here. I have alot of issues with hell doctrines. my beliefs of heaven and hell rest on one sole belief. The belief that God is just. If God is truly just than he will make the right choice whether I know the truth or not.[/quote]

 

[elcapitan]

I believe the body, soul, and spirit are intertwined with each-other. so what effects one part will effect the other. The soul, in itself, is unseen. So I can't prove it, but neither can you disprove it. anything that is unseen is beyond proof.... it sounds like a copout... but I assure you it makes sense if you humbly consider it.

Fair enough, but I bet you take tylenol(or advil, etc.) when you get a headache. I can't disprove that the non-physical nature of tylenol directly affects the soul. But, by Ockam's razor it makes more sense to assume it's only physical, (with the knowledge we have so far.)

 

[Rosencrantz]

I have to hand it to you, Chris. You're holding up remarkably well against this onslaught from elcapitan.

I guess what I was wondering was if there were new conceptions of heaven or hell that I wasn't aware of. The old ones simply don't work. There is nothing about those conceptions that works logically. Unless of course God is insane or stupid or both, which we should assume is not the case (for the sake of argument).

Also, I am not familiar with this 3-part splitting of a person: body, soul, spirit. What is the spirit and how does it relate to the other two?

 

[LovesEnduringPromise]

You chose not to believe in heaven because you cannot understand it. Therefore that shows you you do not have all intelligence and you do not have all the answers. You chose not to believe in God because you do not understand him, your mind cannot wrap itself around the idea of how someone is greater than you. But what you think doesnt change the fact that he is real and alive, we will all be judged by him someday. Now is the chance to repent and face up to our faults and praise God.

 

[LovesEnduringPromise]

Also burning in Hell has nothing to do with a loving God. God loves you no matter what you do.He allows us to have free will because he doesnt want to control us. So therefore we chose to sin, when we sin it has consequences in this life or thereafter. God doesnt send people to hell, so many people misunderstand that. You send yourself to hell. God doesnt want anyone in hell, in fact in the bible it states he wants all his children with him in heaven for eternity. But we chose to go against God and thats when you are turned away from him. He will not save you if you have not obeyed him. Its your own fault, leave God out of it.

 

[Rosencrantz]

Also burning in Hell has nothing to do with a loving God. God loves you no matter what you do.He allows us to have free will because he doesnt want to control us. So therefore we chose to sin, when we sin it has consequences in this life or thereafter. God doesnt send people to hell, so many people misunderstand that. You send yourself to hell. God doesnt want anyone in hell, in fact in the bible it states he wants all his children with him in heaven for eternity. But we chose to go against God and thats when you are turned away from him. He will not save you if you have not obeyed him. Its your own fault, leave God out of it.

Don't you think that an all-loving deity would want us to question things like this though? I mean, just blindly following scriptures is a really difficult thing to do when you take a step back from them.

It's like the whole Adam and Eve story. How did God, in all his infinite wisdom NOT think that they would eat from the tree of knowledge? Couldn't he see that coming? He made us curious. He gave us free will. If it wasn't those two, then it would have been their children or their children's children. The "Fall of Man" was inevitable, wasn't it? How can we be punished for these things?

Why would God, LET us go to hell for turning away from him? I am really skeptical of this whole "obey and don't question" thing. And quite frankly, I am really worried about following a god that doesn't want me to question him whether he exists or not.

I will not submit to a tyrant on Earth or in heaven. Or hell, as the case may be.

 

[Rosencrantz]

You chose not to believe in heaven because you cannot understand it. Therefore that shows you you do not have all intelligence and you do not have all the answers. You chose not to believe in God because you do not understand him, your mind cannot wrap itself around the idea of how someone is greater than you. But what you think doesnt change the fact that he is real and alive, we will all be judged by him someday. Now is the chance to repent and face up to our faults and praise God.

And you have such a perfect conception of God?

I don't not believe in God because I do not have all the answers or because I don't have the intelligence, or can't wrap my mind around it. I don't believe in God for exactly the opposite reason. I have thought about this issue non-stop for the last 10 years of my life. I have been over it, looked at what everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) has had to say about it, and it all comes up negative. The burden of proof is with the theists, I'm afraid.

Logic still applies whether you've got down syndrome or the powers of the cosmos.