Heaven and Hell are the same place...

[Strivax]

...the presence of God. Whether we like His presence or not depends on whether we love God or hate Him, whether we are good or evil, on the quality of our character and the degree of our moral stature.

All these are largely independent of our beliefs, though the right beliefs may assist us in developing our spirit as He intended.

So I contend.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[SkyWriting]

...the presence of God. Whether we like His presence or not depends on whether we love God or hate Him, whether we are good or evil, on the quality of our character and the degree of our moral stature.

All these are largely independent of our beliefs, though the right beliefs may assist us in developing our spirit as He intended.

So I contend.

Best wishes, Strivax.

Heaven is being in the "physical" presence of God. Any sin is destroyed by His presence.
Hell is being without God in communion with you.
Being on earth is similar to being in Hell except here there is company.
"Time" is a placeholder and a gift between existence, and the death we deserve as sinners.

 

[Widlast]

...the presence of God. Whether we like His presence or not depends on whether we love God or hate Him, whether we are good or evil, on the quality of our character and the degree of our moral stature.

All these are largely independent of our beliefs, though the right beliefs may assist us in developing our spirit as He intended.

So I contend.

Best wishes, Strivax.

Well, that is definitely one of the sillier posts I've seen.
No basis in scripture, none in reason either.

Intellectually equivalent to saying Milwaukee and Brooklyn are the same place for those who don't like baseball.

 

[Greg J.]

There is a lot in Scripture that is hard to believe and thus it is easy to try and soften it by thinking it is metaphorical, but the text itself usually affirms or denies this.

Being in the Garden of Eden and being out of was not a difference in a state of mind. One can believe the account of Adam and Eve is metaphorical, but that denies the evidence of Scripture, such as Paul describing that our nature was inherited from Adam. A metaphor was not a model if Jesus was of the same pattern (Romans 5:14). I didn't inherit my sinful nature from a metaphor.

Jesus believed a whole doctrine based on an OT verb tense (Matthew 22:31-32).

“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; (Matthew 25:41, NASB)

If the difference between heaven and hell was a state of mind, no one would have to depart. God's throne is not in hell, and certainly will not be in the Lake of Fire. The Tree of Life which anyone can eat the leaves of is not accessible by those not in heaven. Those that are "inside" the city can eat from it. Those that are "outside" cannot (Revelation 22:14-15).

People face God at the Great White Throne Judgment. If their state of mind is such that they are already "in" hell, why do they need to be thrown into the Lake of Fire?

“If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, (Mark 9:45, NASB)

The thief on the cross did not enter hell with Jesus that day such that his state of mind would have made it like paradise.

(Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? (Ephesians 4:9, NASB)

Mainstream Christian beliefs are not a fad. They are the beliefs that have best stood the critical tests of 2000+ years. We already have an overwhelming amount to learn to just understand what has already been known that we might know Jesus. Trying to find a new secret truth stems from a seed of rebellion.

 

[SnowyMacie]

...the presence of God. Whether we like His presence or not depends on whether we love God or hate Him, whether we are good or evil, on the quality of our character and the degree of our moral stature.

This is actually fairly close to the Eastern Orthodox understanding of Heaven and Hell. The presence of God, to the saved, will be complete untainted joy, peace, bliss, etc, to those unsaved, it will be utter torment. In a sense, it is our personal choice, but it's not so much whether or not we "like it", but more whether or not we are able to handle it because of the state of our hearts and souls.

 

[Greg J.]

This is actually fairly close to the Eastern Orthodox understanding of Heaven and Hell. The presence of God, to the saved, will be complete untainted joy, peace, bliss, etc, to those unsaved, it will be utter torment. In a sense, it is our personal choice, but it's not so much whether or not we "like it", but more whether or not we are able to handle it.

Those that can't handle it are destroyed.

“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28, NASB)

 

[SnowyMacie]

Those that can't handle it are destroyed.

“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28, NASB)

I agree. My personal view on the matter is one that combines the EO view with annihilationism (conditional immorality), but I cannot actually discuss that on the public forum since it's a violation of site rules. I was merely expressing that OP's views are fairly close to one of the traditional views on Hell, just one that's unknown in the West.

 

[Strivax]

Well, that is definitely one of the sillier posts I've seen.
No basis in scripture, none in reason either.

Intellectually equivalent to saying Milwaukee and Brooklyn are the same place for those who don't like baseball.

Actually, I have plenty of 'reason' for my position. Before you dismiss it out of hand, you may like to consider it, a little.

What do the evil hate? Good. It exposes them for what they are, to themselves, and everyone else. What do the good love? Good. It vindicates them. What is the ultimate Good? God.

Occam's razor* insists that we should prefer the simple solution to the complex when offered the choice. And in this way, we can collapse two entities, heaven and hell, into only one.

Best wishes, Strivax.

*'Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity' or 'Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected'.

 

[Widlast]

Actually, I have plenty of 'reason' for my position. Before you dismiss it out of hand, you may like to consider it, a little.

What do the evil hate? Good. It shows them for what they are, to themselves, and everyone else. What do the good love? Good. It vindicates them. What is the ultimate Good? God.

Occam's razor* insists that we should prefer the simple solution to the complex when offered the choice. And in this way, we can collapse two entities, heaven and hell, into only one.

Best wishes, Strivax.

*'Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity' or 'Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected'.

You are aware that neither Heaven nor Hell are entities?
You are misusing Occam's razor.

 

[Strivax]

So, what is the collective term for them, then? And what is the misuse I am guilty of?

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Strivax]

So, moving on.

One of the advantages of this idea is that one does not have to consign anyone to eternal torment. There is no crime, no sin, committed in finite time that I can see justifies everlasting torture as being a just and merciful and loving response. And we know God is both just and merciful, and loves us all.

So, instead of separate Heaven and Hell, we have a situation where the sinful miscreant (which means all of us, to greater or lesser degrees) gets confronted with absolute Good, gets to recognise where they are at, gets to accept or reject God's forgiveness, and gets to repent, if and when they choose, and gets to atone, if and when they choose. Clearly this process will be the more difficult and the more painful the deeper sunk in sin the individual is. And so both Justice and Mercy are served.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Ron Gurley]

(a) The TRI-UNE GOD is pure spirit...an "Infinite Being".
The character of that God has been / is being revealed to Man.
Man was created in the spiritual IMAGE of God, the soul LIKENESS of God...a BODY with "free will" to spiritually accept / reject his Creator.
The "actions" of Man that fall short of the perfect GOOD of GOD create a spiritual "communication / fellowship" barrier....SIN / SIN(S).
A perfectly JUST God JUDGES all the works / spirit of Man.
A perfectly LOVING and MERCIFUL God wants all to accept Him, and has provided a "perfect provision"...A John 3 acceptance of God the Son, Jesus the Christ. "inconvenience" / convenience are not among the list of spiritual attributes character of God...only Man.

(b.) (infinite?) spiritual CONSEQUENCES: the perfect and pure / separate TRI-UNE GOD has created two spiritual realms:

1. For the spiritually changed BELIEVERS who have ACCEPTED GOD...kingdom of heaven / kingdom of GOD

2. For the spiritually UNchanged UNBELIEVERS who have REJECTED GOD..."lake of fire"

 

[Ron Gurley]

HELL YES!

The word "hell" from the Greek is mentioned 88 times in the Bible: ...BUT...
64 times as the Hebrew word "Sheol" in the OT, ...the lowest grave in the earth
11 times as "Hades" in the NT
1 time as "Tartarus",
12 times as "Geenna".

RESULT: inaccurate translations of similar words!

Hades... the abode or state of the dead: informal ( often not capital ) "hell"

Tartarus ...from Latin, from Greek Tartaros, of obscure origin

Geenna ...OT: offal and refuse were slowly burned
NT Judaism: a place where the wicked are punished after death
...a place or state of pain and torment ... SYMBOLIC of "hell"

REF: Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible

The "lake of fire" of Revelation is clearly described.

1. It is a place created by God to restrain satan, demons, the "un-holy trinity", death, and the bad side of Abraham's Bosom...Hades.

2. It is a place of eternal separation from the TRI-UNE GOD's realm in the future New Heavens and the New Earth and the New Jerusalem

3. At the Great White Throne Judgment, God sentences unbelievers whose names are NOT written in the Lamb's Book of Life to dwell therein.

Revelation 20:15 (NASB); SEE ALSO 21:8
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life (believers),
he (unbeliever) was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8 (NASB)
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and
immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars (unsaved sinners), their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

And there is no provision for the removal of the SPIRITS sentenced to reside there!

Matthew 13:50...Jesus' parable explained
...and (angels) will throw them (tares=unbelievers) into the "furnace of fire"; in that PLACE there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


HEAVEN...you figger it out!

THERE is but ONE "heaven" and ONE "earth" provided for God (pure spirit) to relate to Man. (body/soul/spirit)
ONE heavenly REALM from which the pre-existent God "created".
ONE earthly REALM prepared by God on which Man and life can dwell.

No man has ever seen God the Father...only manifestations.
But my guess is that TRI-UNE GOD will not "appear" as a king on his throne with angels flitting around in the clouds.

No man has ever "seen" God's SPIRITUAL REALM...only A hearing of promises of spiritual "eternal life".

There are no Biblical eyewitness reports by believers who went to "heaven" and returned to describe it.

John 4:24
God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

God the Spirit's spiritual realm is SPIRIT!

Psalm 99...Metaphors!
The Lord reigns, let the peoples tremble; He is enthroned above the cherubim, let the earth shake!...
Exalt the Lord our God
And worship at His footstool;
Holy is He...
Exalt the Lord our God
And worship at His holy hill,
For holy is the Lord our God.

Revelation 21...Metaphors!??
Then I saw a NEW heaven and a NEW earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.And I saw the holy city, NEW Jerusalem, coming DOWN out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying,
"Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, (Eden-like)
and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

2 Peter 3: 1-13...Peter's Prophecy of "The Coming Day of the Lord"...and New Heavens and a New Earth

But "the day of the Lord" will come like a thief, in which the heavens (atmosphere) will pass away with a roar and the elements (living / matter) will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works (people / life) will be burned up.
Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening "the coming of the day of God", because of which the heavens (atmosphere) will be destroyed by burning, and the elements(living /matter) will melt with intense heat!
But according to His promise we are looking for "New Heavens and a New Earth", in which righteousness dwells.

John 14: 1-3 (NASB)....Jesus Comforts His Disciples
"Do not let your heart be troubled;
believe in God, believe also in Me.
In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; (NOT heavens! Not apartments! Not SPACE!)

{"places"...Greek 3438...mone...a staying, abiding, dwelling, abode...metaphor of the God the Holy Spirit indwelling believers

if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a PLACE for you.

{place"... Greek 5117....topos...the condition or station held by one in any company or assembly

If I go and prepare a place for you,
I will COME AGAIN and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.And you know the WAY where I am going."

Matthew 3:16
After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water;
and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God DESCENDING as a dove and lighting on Him,

Hebrews 9:24
For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

1 Peter 3:22
who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven,
after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Revelation 19:1 [ The Fourfold Hallelujah ]
After these things I heard something like a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying,
"Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God;

 

[Strivax]

Next, I would like to discuss some of the thinking that led me to this view, that the presence of God is all that is needed to make both Heaven and Hell.

Traditionally, the salvation debate has been between faith and works. Between what we believe, and what we do. We instinctively feel that 'works' cannot be the justification for salvation, or the rich and powerful, who are in a position to do greater works than the rest of us little people, would get to enjoy heaven while the rest of us don't. They would get the best of this life, and the best of the next life, also. That cannot be 'fair', and we know God is supremely Just.

But salvation by faith alone has it's problems, also. Faith is not a matter of simple 'choice'. If you doubt this, try becoming a Muslim for the next five minutes, and then revert back to your current beliefs, whatever they are. Or if you are a Muslim, try being a Jew for a short time. I bet you can't do it. Our faith is heavily influenced by the culture we inhabit, which is why most people born in Christian cultures remain Christian, Jewish Jews, Muslim Muslim, Buddhist Buddhist, and so on. So, for the vast majority, if a Christian faith is the only criterion for salvation, most of us are saved or damned by accident of birth; by where, and to who, we are born. This doesn't seem 'fair', either, and we know God is supremely Just.

So, my proposal is this: we are saved by how we are. How we are is a matter of character, our way of being. Good people get enjoy the presence of God, and bad people don't. Religions help, in that they help bad people become good, and good people, better. But what religions don't do is define the quality of our afterlife. I contend that this is mainly a matter of our personal virtue, or lack of it. And you get virtue, by being virtuous. That would seem to be 'fair', and we know God is supremely Just.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Strivax]

Finally, I would point out that the current conventional belief, that if you are a Christian, you get heaven, and if you are not, you get hell, offers no incentive to be good. Plenty of incentive to be Christian, but once you are, it seems you can be a total thug and still think you are 'saved'. And history provides many examples of such thugs, from the crusades, through the reformation, when Catholics and Protestants murdered and tortured each other with abandon, and even in modern times, when some see their alleged Christianity as an excuse for terrorism (eg; the Lord's Resistance Army) and for far-right and white supremacist notions. I don't find this acceptable, and I think if the world saw merit, not faith, as the factor deciding the quality of our afterlives then why, the world might even improve somewhat.

I now rest my case, and will take questions, comments and criticisms.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[sdowney717]

All persons will go to hell unless God has mercy on them and saves them by Christ.

Romans 9:15
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

Romans 9:16
So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Romans 9:18
Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Romans 9:22-24
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

And Hell is a place of eternal destruction and separation from God ordained by God.

2 Thessalonians 1
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Jesus taught the same, the idea of being shut out from the Kingdom of God.

 

[sdowney717]

Mark 4:10-12New King James Version (NKJV)
The Purpose of Parables
10 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that

‘Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand;
Lest they should turn,
And their sins be forgiven them.’”[a]

 

[Strivax]

Yes, I know what I am saying is contrary to some readings of the Bible. I accept that, and need no more quotations to prove it. What I am looking for is not scriptural assertions devoid of any justification, but a reasoned debate, with rational arguments, and relevant points. Do you have that sort of conversation available to you?

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[sdowney717]

Yes, I know what I am saying is contrary to some readings of the Bible. I accept that, and need no more quotations to prove it. What I am looking for is a reasoned debate, with rational arguments, and relevant points. Do you have that sort of conversation available to you?

Best wishes, Strivax.

Point is what your suggesting is individual speculation with no biblical truth to hang onto as an anchor for the soul. God warns us not to add or take away from scripture, so if what your saying is contrary, then your not of God's truth and irrelevant at best or a deceitful worker of Satan at worst.

 

[Big Drew]

Heaven, Paradise, Abraham's Bosom, New Jerusalem...whatever you want to call it, is being with God for all eternity.

Hell, Sheol, Hades, etc...being eternally separated from Him.