HEATHEN: The Objects of GOD'S Wrath?

[ShieldOFaith]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineS...omans+9&section=0&version=nkj&language=en#F27 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? --Romans 9[/FONT]
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Ok, this is the most controversial passage of Scripture in the Bible. I can only hope you understand why. If you don't; here is the reason.


1. God is saying that He hates someone.


2. God is saying that he will have Mercy on whom He wants, and others He will harden.


3. Some vessels were prepared for Destruction! Some were prepared for Mercy!


Now, all of you who are not "Calvinists" are going to lose your minds a bit here in this passage. It will come in three phases.



First: you will struggle to understand it.



Second: you will begin to understand it.




Third: RAGE!!!



This is understandable. It is hard to swallow that GOD would harden someones heart. It is hard to understand that God loved Jacob and hated Esau. It is hard to understand that GOD would raise Pharaoh up just so He could lay the Smack Down upon him and show forth His power!!!



The hardest thing to swallow in this passage of Scripture is this here:



[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]This is all very HARD to swallow. This is all very HARD to think on. However, I believe it is necessary for us to learn the Word of God and understand it thoroughly.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]This is the very heart of Ethics and Morality. Because now you are forced to make a judgment call.
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[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]IS GOD RIGHT OR WRONG IN DOING WHAT HE DOES?[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Of course the answer is: HE IS RIGHT!!![/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]SOLI DEO GLORIA.
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[PeterMaclellan]

You spend your entire post explaining why your concept of God is an evil overlord then arbitrarily state that hes right with no justification?

Who is this supposed to convince?

What is the point of this post other than to make yourself feel better then others for knowing the 'truth'?

There's no struggle to understand it, it proves that if your version of God exists, he is an enemy worthy only of our utmost resistence. Honestly if that turns out to be true, consider me a soldier in Satan's resistance as he probably had the right idea.

 

[The Nihilist]

No. The passage cited above means that god is a jerk.

 

[ShieldOFaith]

You spend your entire post explaining why your concept of God is an evil overlord then arbitrarily state that hes right with no justification?

Who is this supposed to convince?

What is the point of this post other than to make yourself feel better then others for knowing the 'truth'?

There's no struggle to understand it, it proves that if your version of God exists, he is an enemy worthy only of our utmost resistence. Honestly if that turns out to be true, consider me a soldier in Satan's resistance as he probably had the right idea.

The point is to understand Scripture.

 

[PeterMaclellan]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Of course the answer is: HE IS RIGHT!!!

Two questions.

Why is that the answer?

Why is it obvious?
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[PeterMaclellan]

The point is to understand Scripture.

For what purpose? To understand that God is an evil overlord bent on our destruction and to better prepare our defences against his coming attack?

 

[ShieldOFaith]

No. The passage cited above means that god is a jerk.

Wrong!

It means that GOD is SOVEREIGN!!!

 

[Wednesday]

I missed you!

 

[IzzyPop]

I am having a hard time seeing why this is the heart of Ethics and Morality. If God is the one hardening our hearts, how are we to blame? There is an outside force jerking our strings and we are not in control of our own thoughts, much less our actions. This would make the entire concept of ethics a moot point. And morality would mean nothing since it is not our choice, but rather the choice that God has made for us.

 

[PeterMaclellan]

Wrong!

It means that GOD is SOVEREIGN!!!

How are those two concepts mutually exclusive? Just because God's sovereign doesn't mean he's right. Every king and queen in the history of the world claimed sovereignty, were each of them automatically right as well?

 

[levi501]

1. God is saying that He hates someone.

your god doesn't exist.

 

[Madcoil]

The obvious answer is: It doesn't matter.

The god of those passages was like a rock that fell out of the sky. Undeterminable by whoever it/he landed on. It didn't matter if you thought he was wrong or right, because you couldn't judge him. And you couldn't stop him.

 

[Corey]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]13 As it is written...[paraphrasing]And the number of the count be three...not two nor four...but three"[/FONT]

Anyhoo...

So basically you're saying your god that was supposed to give all humans free will really didn't give us free will?

Of course, I'm pretty sure you don't understand the law of noncontradiction...

 

[ShieldOFaith]

For what purpose? To understand that God is an evil overlord bent on our destruction and to better prepare our defences against his coming attack?

Good question.

The answer will not be fully understood by you or any other unsaved individual.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent." 20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. --1 Cor. 1

And now for the KICKER!!!

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. --1 Cor. 2

So with that, here is your answer.

To bless the Christian! That is the purpose. We are to understand that GOD has chosen us and has lavished MERCY upon us!!! Amen!

We are to understand that GOD has given us the "Golden Ticket" if you will. We were chosen by GOD before the foundation of the world!!! (see Eph. 1)

We are to be in AWE of GOD and His Mercy! We are to be humbled that He would even think of choosing any of us to be saved. And that He has chose to give us Mercy!

That is to what end this passage is for.
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[happydance]

Wow, I think I get it. God hates me, because my heart is hardened. So, it is hopeless. Thanks SoF. I am thoroughly depressed now.

 

[PeterMaclellan]

So you're saying God decides who gets saved and who doesn't. People are created to either join him in heaven or burn for eternity?

 

[cantata]

Great! I'm entirely justified in sinning to my heart's content, since it's actually to the content of God's heart - he's wholly responsible.

*runs off to find some lesbians and a jar of best-quality jam*

 

[ShieldOFaith]

Anyhoo...

So basically you're saying your god that was supposed to give all humans free will really didn't give us free will?

Of course, I'm pretty sure you don't understand the law of noncontradiction...

[SIZE=+2]THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD.[/SIZE] Sect. 9.—T[SIZE=-1]HIS[/SIZE], therefore, is also essentially necessary and wholesome for Christians to know: That God foreknows nothing by contingency, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His immutable, eternal, and infallible will. By this thunderbolt, "Free-will" is thrown prostrate, and utterly dashed to pieces. Those, therefore, who would assert "Free-will," must either deny this thunderbolt, or pretend not to see it, or push it from them. But, however, before I establish this point by any arguments of my own, and by the authority of Scripture, I will first set it forth in your words. --Martin Luther, 'The Bondage Of The Will'.
http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html



This explains it a whole lot better than I can.

 

[cantata]

[SIZE=+2]THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD.[/SIZE]

*sticks her head out from the pile of lesbians*

Oh, gosh, I see! Bold capitals!

Well, it must be true then.

*goes back to applying jam*

 

[PeterMaclellan]

SoF, if you're interpretation of scripture is correct, why did God give anyone this mortal life? Isn't this life completely redundant if where we wind up afterward is a foregone conclusion? Did God create the mortal life so that those that aren't among his select will suffer that much more when the reach their inevitable destination?