Heart vs Mind

[McWilliams]

There is so much discussion of doctrine and theology but how does one respond to Christ's command that we must be born again? What experience have you had with this? In what way did you see your life change? What age were you when this occured? If you believe sound doctrine and were taught the bible, then do you also see the 'new birth' as a necessity? What specific influence if any led to your being 'reborn'? What is the balance between intellect and heart required in truly coming to 'know Christ'? We are instructed to 'be holy as I am holy'! What does 'holy' look like? If you have assurance of eternal life with Christ, on what grounds do you base this confidence?

 

[calmcoolandelected]

There is so much discussion of doctrine and theology but how does one respond to Christ's command that we must be born again? What experience have you had with this? In what way did you see your life change? What age were you when this occured? If you believe sound doctrine and were taught the bible, then do you also see the 'new birth' as a necessity? What specific influence if any led to your being 'reborn'? What is the balance between intellect and heart required in truly coming to 'know Christ'? We are instructed to 'be holy as I am holy'! What does 'holy' look like? If you have assurance of eternal life with Christ, on what grounds do you base this confidence?

Good morning, McW!

This will be short and sweet since I have to leave in 5 minutes to take my son to school.

I think there is a difference between salvation and sanctification. In sanctification we are to become more Christ-like and I believe that is a combination of what God reveals to us via the Holy Spirit and our knowledge of Him (via the Word). I believe God's Word is the vehicle God uses to change our hearts (with the Holy Spirit) in both salvation and sanctification. Boy, that is clear as mud, isn't it?

CC&E ballerina mom

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

There is so much discussion of doctrine and theology but how does one respond to Christ's command that we must be born again? What experience have you had with this? In what way did you see your life change? What age were you when this occured? If you believe sound doctrine and were taught the bible, then do you also see the 'new birth' as a necessity? What specific influence if any led to your being 'reborn'? What is the balance between intellect and heart required in truly coming to 'know Christ'? We are instructed to 'be holy as I am holy'! What does 'holy' look like? If you have assurance of eternal life with Christ, on what grounds do you base this confidence?

McW,

This is a great question and one we all need to consider.

I was born again at the age of seven. I heard the Gospel and responded to it in an emotional way. I knew then that Christ loved me and saved me. He changed my heart of stone into a heat of flesh.

I have since that day loved the Lord. I have, as most of us do, stumbled in my walk with the Lord, especially when I was in the Navy, but the Lord never let me go and chastised me and lovingly brought me back to Himself.

The only part "head knowledge" plays in my assurance of salvation is I know the promises of God, that He will never leave me or forsake me.

THe Lord provides for me and I know His Spirit abides in me. I love Him and desire to do His will, though I never do His will perfectly, that is always the goal (go and sin no more).

It is clear when you read some modern theologians that they have great knowledge of the Scriptures, but no knowledge of the one whom the Scriptures proclaim. THere are men who know the Bible and believe it is only a book, this is because they hearts are not changed by the Holy Spirit.

One of my grandfathers was illiterate old Cajun. He spoke very little English and for most of his life he heard the Gospel in Latin during the Mass in the RCC.

He could not discuss theology in any depth, he had not even read one word in the Bible, because he never learned to read in any language. Still he heard the Gospel and what little he knew, the Holy Spirit had used to change his heart of stone into a heart of flesh.

I have known few people with a greater faith in Jesus Christ than my grandfather Jean-David Becnel (say it in French). He could not debate anyone about points of doctrine, but his faith in Christ was genuine and exceedingly strong. He lived his faith by living a Christian life before those around him. He taught and raised my father in the ways of the Lord, but my dad did not heed his training until he was in his thirties. It was then that the Holy spirit brought salvation to my dad.

Once my dad understood the Gospel, he went back to his dad to tell him about the "so great a salvation" that is found in Christ Jesus. My grandfather knew my dad had not been living according to the faith that he had been raised in, but he was surprised to learn that my dad had never before understood that Gospel until then.

Jean-David Becnel is one of the greatest witnesses to the Gospel that I have known. He could not articulate great theological truths, but he knew in whom he believed and he served him all his live. He was a dirt poor old Frenchman who lived by the Gospel.

I know far more doctrine and theology than my grandfather, yet his faith was simple but profound, because it was a faith in the salvation that comes through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

I think theology is important, but theology does not save sinners. Jesus Christ saves sinners. Jesus Christ made me His own when I was seven. I am assured of my salvation because I know Him and because His Word assures me that He will never forsake me.

Coram Deo.
Kenith

 

[McWilliams]

The limited response to this issue concerns me and only serves to bring up more questions than answers.
One cannot be sanctified unless first regenerated and justified.
One cannot have assurance of salvation and eternal life with Christ unless first regenerated, justified, sanctified!

No spiritual growth can take place until the above happens. Until then as the quote by Manton tells us:
Until men place their faith in Christ, their greatest deeds are but glorious sins!!
We cannot place apples on a pear tree! The very root/heart determines what is borne from the tree!

Now, if one has assurance of their salvation, on what is this based? How and why does one feel confident that their eternity is secure with Christ?

This is only for discussion and exchange of ideas!

You'll find no rejection here, just eagerness to know how and why others process scriptural truths.

I love reading the testimonies of God's grace in others lives! Such a blessing! Are we not all anonymous? Please share freely! One of the blessings of SR is our acceptance of each other, right? Hopefully none of us is past learning and growing because of the benefit reaped in seeing God's work in another life!

 

[edie19]

There is so much discussion of doctrine and theology but how does one respond to Christ's command that we must be born again? What experience have you had with this? In what way did you see your life change? What age were you when this occured? If you believe sound doctrine and were taught the bible, then do you also see the 'new birth' as a necessity? What specific influence if any led to your being 'reborn'? What is the balance between intellect and heart required in truly coming to 'know Christ'? We are instructed to 'be holy as I am holy'! What does 'holy' look like? If you have assurance of eternal life with Christ, on what grounds do you base this confidence?

I believe that doctrine and theology are important - but knowledge of these things doesn't mean that we are regenerate. I had "knowledge" long before I had "understanding." I grew up in a churched home, I spent hours at my church every week - was active in my Sunday school class and youth group, assisted in the kindergarten class and attended worship regularly. It wasn't until I was 18 and God turned my heart to Him that I recognized what was truly asked of all Christians - repentance and belief. Because of the teaching I had received as a child I had a good foundation in place, something God built upon.

While I strongly believe that knowledge of both doctrine and theology is important to understanding, I recognize that for the most part the earliest church leaders (i.e. the apostles) were humble men of modest means, not educated by our standards. God often uses the mundane, the everyday to teach us. But He also expects us to have knowledge - to study, to learn. He expects us to know His Word, His teaching (1 Peter 2:2-3), otherwise how do we know to be wary of false teachings and doctrines.

Is a new birth necessary - according to Christ it was (John 3:3-8). That's good enough for me.

What does holy look like - it looks like Jesus the Christ as so clearly shown in Scripture. It doesn't look like me - I am a sinner through and through and only through God's mercy and grace are those sins forgiven. My assurance is in those same words that have so clearly shown the Christ to me.

edie

 

[GrinningDwarf]

There is so much discussion of doctrine and theology but how does one respond to Christ's command that we must be born again? What experience have you had with this? In what way did you see your life change? What age were you when this occured? If you believe sound doctrine and were taught the bible, then do you also see the 'new birth' as a necessity? What specific influence if any led to your being 'reborn'? What is the balance between intellect and heart required in truly coming to 'know Christ'? We are instructed to 'be holy as I am holy'! What does 'holy' look like? If you have assurance of eternal life with Christ, on what grounds do you base this confidence?

I was seventeen when I was reborn. I wasn't 'Reformed' until I was almost forty. My assurance drastically changed when I 'got Reformed'. It changed from being based upon a decision I had made in the past, to the decrees written by God in all eternity...much more secure, IMHO!

I've been trying to figure all this stuff out myself, lately. I've been trying to figure out how I got from there to here and write it all down. Some of it I posted over in the 'What's your story?' thread. I'll post it all when I finish. (Sometimes I think that's a pretty optimistic when I finish!!)

 

[McWilliams]

Similar to my own experience, GD, except for mine being many more years between! The change was so drastic in fact that it brought up questions as to when was I actually saved? I'm pondered that one over and over until deciding it really didnt matter. What really does matter is that today I know Christ has done a work of regeneration in my heart and that since then I have been progressively sanctified and have great assurance that I am His and have a reservation in heaven which was made by Him! Wonderful confidence in His work, not by anything I did except believe! It is a wonderful thing to look back over life and see how He worked out so many details! It truly makes one bow with great gratitude and as you said before, begin to see the words of the hymns in a new light and see the meaning of scripture with such new clarity and significance! What could be better?

 

[jer3119]

Good Questions, McWilliams, and I think both doctrine/theology/truth and emotions/affections/the heart, leading to godly actions are essential because the Word always puts the three together, as in 1Jn, where the tests are laid out for anyone to evaluate their true status, and there the Apostle of Love, spoke to all three, correct belief, the "anointing" and "fellowship with the Father and the Son" and the actions these inevitably produce in the life and the love and peace of heart that accompanies same. I think it's never either/or but all of the above; what Paul called the "whole counsel of the Word of God".

I pray He will enable these things in me, for without Him, I am nothing.

 

[jer3119]

Hi McW:

Thanks for the blessings and the private message which I tried to respond to but got a message that I couldn't do so because I didn't have enough posts.

I think your post may have been prompted by a concern I share with you that there is a disporportionate time spent on doctrine versus experience, and I mean experience of the heart in communion with God the Father and the Son. I wrote the first post because I don't want to fall into the trap of pitting one against the other for I believe the scriptures combine them.

Even so, men like Thomas Goodwin, one of the twin pillars of the English Reformation, agreed that those in his day who professed Christ seemed to have forgotten the place of the Spirit's supernatural work in making doctrine real to the heart and Christ more than a concept. I believe this is forgotten to a large degree today also and that emotionalism has replaced, or been mistaken for, true Spirit derived emotions of love, peace, tranquility, family and forgiveness in Him, which passes all understanding when "the Spirit Himself wittnesseth with our spirit that we are children of God". People are not taught how, as a rule, to tell the difference, but some men of a former day of great emenence in Godliness, made it their business to make the distinction clear so that none would be deceived.

Must go, time fails me, May He lift up the Light of His countenance upon you, McW, and give you peace, and may the Light of the knowledge of the Glory of God in the Face (appearance) of Jesus Christ" by yours in real and manifest ways, for He has promised to all that ask and obey, that He "will manifest Myself to you".

In Him,
jer3119

 

[mlqurgw]

I think part of the problem is that there are far too many who were saved before they ever got lost. Having an experience of remorse because we have done something bad isn't the same as finding out how lost we are. Doctrine and theology can sooth the conscience and even give temporary peace but only a lost person knows what it is to need a Savior. I think J. C. Philpot put it well;
“There was a reality in Job’s religion. It was not of a flimsy, notional, superficial nature; it was not merely a sound Calvinistic creed, and nothing more; it was not a religion of theory and speculation, nor a well-compacted system of doctrines and duties. There was something deeper, something more divine in Job’s religion than any such mere pretence, delusion, imitation, or hypocrisy. And if our religion be of the right kind, there will be something deeper in it, something more powerful, and supernatural, than notions and doctrines, theories and speculations, however scriptural and correct, a merely passing to and fro in our minds. There will be a divine reality in it, if God the Spirit be the Author of it; and there will be no trifling with the solemn things of God, and with our immortal souls.” J. C. Philpot

 

[jer3119]

Hi miqurgw:

I agree with you about being lost before being found, being sick before finding the great physician. Until we know how sick we are, any remedy will do.

Philpot is one of the first ones that the Lord used to confirm my understanding of experiential realities and I read almost all of him. Later, I learned that he had a trend toward antinomianism, which I had never heard of and didn't understand the importance of having been steeped in dispensationalism.

The Lord taught me to "love the law" though, and that "through the Law is the knowledge of sin", and that "the Law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ". Amazing how many times I had read these verses but had no idea what they meant until He opened them up to me. Salvation and understanding are totally impossible without the Spirit's work, and though these words are obviously true they still amaze me and make me thankful that now I am able to appreciate them a little, though not as much as I would like to. It is only "when I am in my right mind", as Philpot so aptly put it, that I do.

The other thing that gets short shrift I've found in "Christianity Light" is holiness and mortification of sin; the Lord's dealings with an individual personally and particularly in sanctification and revealing the wickedness of "the thoughts and intents of the heart". Oh how patient He is with me. I'd have sent me to Hell long long ago. What mercy.

May He bless you.
jer3119