healing and forgiveness

Unforgiveness in a person and hatred can indeed cause illness. I don't know how many are ill for this. I know from personal experience about unforgiveness causing illness but that is a personaly story for a different time or place.

Strong in Him said:

And you can prove that can you?

It's not the truth - you have offered no references, sources, details of scientific study/research or studies of people who have had cancer, repented of their unforgiving attitudes and were healed, or whatever. All we have is your statement that illness is caused by unforgiveness.

It's not that far from saying that you can earn your healing by forgiving, if you don't forgive you won't be healed; ergo if you're not healed, it's your own fault, or at least your responsibility.

That is not truth.

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Merlin never implied nor mentioned "fault, or blame".
And yes, she speaks the truth, re that based on mistaken beliefs & decisions, 'most chronic diseases' the sufferer made.

I was one such person; who allowed herself from such to heal.
And there have been, and continue, many others. The point being, that GOD/Jesus created us to heal... also the Truth.

sk8Joyful said:

Merlin never implied nor mentioned "fault, or blame".

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I didn't say she had. I said that if she was saying that the majority of chronic illnesses are caused by not being able to forgive someone (and she did), then that is not that far from saying that if you are ill then it's because you need to forgive, and if you remain ill, then the cure (forgiveness) is in your hands. Presumably in that case if you remain ill, it's by your own choice.

I know she didn't use those words, but that is a logical conclusion to draw from that argument.

sk8Joyful said:

And yes, she speaks the truth, re that based on mistaken beliefs & decisions, 'most chronic diseases' the sufferer made.

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I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Some people may become ill because they choose to smoke, drink, live an unhealthy lifestyle, even hate and show bitterness. I know that, I'm not disputing it. What I have constantly challenged, and received no answer or explanation for, is the claim that 95% of chronic illnesses are caused by not being able to forgive. And cancer was listed among those illnesses. I disagree with that. There are many reasons for becoming sick, or getting an illness - it could be hereditary for one thing; then there are viruses, germs and infections which we may pick up from other people. Disability may be caused by an accoident, or also be genetic. Sickness, disability, terminal illness etc exist and happen because we live in a fallen world. But it doesn't follow that when an individual becomes ill, it is because they have sinned, or cannot forgive or whatever.

sk8Joyful said:

I was one such person; who allowed herself from such to heal.
And there have been, and continue, many others. The point being, that GOD/Jesus created us to heal... also the Truth.

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And again, I'm not disputing that. But that was not what we were talking about. The subject of this thread is that illness is caused by unforgiveness, and the specific claim was made that this is true in about 95% of cases. It may be, and if God shows someone that hey have an ulcer, or whatever, because they have not forgiven someone, then obviously it was true in that case. But it doesn't mean that every sick person has to forgive someone before they can be healed.

Sin is what caused for illness to even prevail.

MamaZ said:

Sin is what caused for illness to even prevail.

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I know. I never said otherwise.

Merlin said:

better to heal than just alleviate symptoms.

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Alleviate or remove.

Merlin said:

This may not go over well
anyway, healing often requires forgiveness (by the sick person)
which people have trouble doing.

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Wow, I'm so ashamed to say that I've read this entire thread,
which is so lacking in Scripture but so full of unbelief.

Jesus marveled at only two things afaik.
Those were..

• faith
• lack of faith

You knew it wouldn't go over well, because people don't like
to think that they may have contributed to their ills. I dont
care to think that I've been a fool either, but I have/am

OBVIOUSLY we can and do.
Since He said we reap what WE sow.
(Sow to the flesh and reap... what?
Sow to the spirit and reap..)

Who am I to argue with Jesus.

Can't tell you the number of my friends who are diabetic and
could be cured but cannot lose the weight (which we all know
is very hard because most of us here sow to that gluttony ourselves,
I ate an entire container of cheese spread since yesterday, just
munching)
Then there's stress (not living in the peace, not going to the Lord,
taking everything to Him in prayer)
There's unforgiveness... (How can your father forgive you, if you
cannot forgive your brother?)
Theres the preservatives, hormones and antibiotics in our foods
Then you have that fast reckless lifestyle many of us live (lack
of sleep, peace, veggies etc)
Then there's the alcoholism, drug abuse...
And dont forget the biggy.. white SUGAR!
I could go on, but yeah..

Yes, Strong in Him, I think it's very different here in the States.
Our physicians even get incentives from the pharmaceutical
companies if they prescribe certain drugs.
Doc had me on paxil ten years ago for anxiety, it didn't work,
and not only that but it made me have these electrical zappy
things happen in my head (it was spooky) Told him to just
put me back on my old meds and he wouldn't. He tried to get
me on that same but newly formulated med, and I ended up
leaving the office with no relief, and thirty pounds overweight
from that darn med I'd been on!
And you should see the exorbitant number of commercials
we have to sit through from drug companies. If you dont
have an ailment, they'll convince you of some goofy one
they've thought up.
Our doctors get paid if you keep coming back.
And it seems like babies are no longer delivered
in the natural way, but the c sections seem to
be 'necessary' more of the time.

A study in Australia found a perinatal mortality rate of 5.9/1,000 out of 3400 planned home births (Kitzinger 41).
Joseph C. Pearce states in his landmark book Evolution’s End that homebirthed babies have a six to one better chance of survival than a hospital-birthed child (117).
A study in the Netherlands done in 1986 on women who were having their first babies showed these results: out of 41,861 women who delivered in the hospital, the perinatal mortality rate was 20.2/1,000. Of 15,031 women who delivered at home with a trained midwife, the rate was 1.5/1,000 (Kitzinger 44).

So I am very thankful that God is helping me to overcome my
gluttony and any other foolish habits/lifestyle, and all I can
do is appeal to His mercy because He did tell me, that I'd
reap what I sow.

Have mercy on us Father.

Strong in Him said:

There are many reasons for becoming sick, or getting an illness - it could be hereditary for one thing;

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Merlin said:

nope
very rare

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Are you kidding me? There are dozens of illnesses/conditions that are genetic;

e.g
Huntindon's chorea
sickle cell anemia
cystic fibrosis
haemophilia
phenylketonuria (rare, but it exists)
Muscular dystrophy
Down's syndrome
Tay-sachs disease

These are conditions where a specific gene is faulty and that gene is passed on to the child. A parent may be a carrier for an illess without getting any symptoms themselves. Not all their children may get the condition, and even in those that do, the symptoms may not develop until adulthood; but when they do develop, it will be the genetic abnormality that has caused them.

There are other conditions which run in families, though I don't know if there is a specific gene responsible for them.
E.g
Allergies,
hayfever
asthma
diabetes
some heart conditions
maybe alzheimer's
Parkinson's disease

Haven't you ever filled in a health, or insurance, form which has asked "is there a history of ........ in your family?" Or been pregnant and been asked the same thing? This doesn't mean that because someone in your family has a heart problem that you are guaranteed/destined to get it also, but it may indicate a genetic weakness or inherited disposition towards something, and so doctors will want to be aware of it.

My knowledge of genetics never was up to much, and I don't know all the whys and wherefores of illness or disease; but there are certainly some conditions which can be proved by the existance, or condition, of a certain gene.

I think it is still true to say that if sin had not come into the world then neither would sickness. But it is by no means certain that a person who has a heart condition has it because they have committed a specific sin, and certainly not an indication that they need to forgive someone - unless the Lord were to reveal this to be the cause.

Strong in Him said:

- unless the Lord were to reveal this to be the cause.

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And this is the key, naturally.
Ask Father for direction.


Too often we assume that it's God humbling us.
Is it? Didnt God say to humble ourselves?
We sometimes chase rainbows, when God's
already given us all, and other times sink
into complacency when Father desires so much
more for our ministry.

sunlover

Merlin said:

They are generally not genetic.
It just appears that way.

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Really? You have evidence that if doctors perform tests to see if someone is a carrier of an illness and the result is that they are, that those tests are flawed, or just appear to give a positive answer?
Would you tell the families whose children have died of a genetic disease, that in fact it only appeared they had that disease? Or maybe you think that if someone has Huntingdon's Chorea and their children also get the illness, that it's all in their minds; that the child has brainwashed itself into believing it has it because their dad has?

Why would there be all this uproar about stem cell research, or babies that were conceived just to give a sick child a healthy body part, or the couples that are allowed to choose the sex of their child based on genetic history, if the whole genetic thing was just a huge coincidence or it only appeared that there was a link between people in the same family who died of the same illness? Again, do you have any research to back this up, or is it just guesswork?

Illness exists. Genetic, hereditary and terminal illnesses really do exist and can affect anyone - even Christians. Bitterness and unforgiveness can cause some illnesses, but not all, and you've certainly given no evidence for your claims that 95% of illnesses are caused by unforgiveness. If they were, if such a link was proved and was demonstrated to work every time, then the world would be a much nicer place. No one would want to store up thoughts of revenge against someone, if they got terminal cancer by doing so. There would be no wars - no one would go in for revenge attacks or revenge killings, because by doing so they would condemn themselves to a lifetime of suffering.

Even if all the cancer sufferers you have worked with harboured some secret hurt that was making them bitter and they refused to forgive the person involved, 1) you don't know that that unforgiveness was the cause of their cancer and 2) you can't draw a conclusion that evey other cancer sufferer in the world has refused to forgive someone. And that goes for every other illness too. There MAY be a link, and the Lord may tell a sick person tat they need to forgive, ask for forgiveness or believe that they have received it, let go and move on - I don't have a problem with that. But that's for the Lord to reveal to each individual; it is not a general fact.

Strong in Him said:

My knowledge of genetics never was up to much,
and I don't know all the whys and wherefores of illness or disease;
but there are certainly some conditions which can be proved by the existance, or condition, of a certain gene.

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Don't feel bad, most everyone does not understand 'genetics'.
Some scientists tried, via the Human-genome project to prove that many diseases are due to faulty genes.

The problem with that, of course is that the human genome only has about twice the genes of much simpler animals
like a nematode (roundworm) or fruit fly ; and therefore can not possibly 'cause' all these diseases your mentioned, or numerous other variations.

The 2nd. fact to consider is that GOD created us to change our genes consistently, so long as we live. For example, when a virus invades your body, your subconscious mind has to first identify the foreign critter, and including previous experience, it then sets out to create *antibodies* as defense. An antibody is a protein your subconscious mind makes, for your Immune-system to restore you to health & wellbeing Such experiences also change your genes.

And a 3rd. fact, is that many healers (including at least 2 in this thread) around the world have, and continue helping other people, from diseases, heal

Hence this shows you that in most instances, the sick conditions people are "taught as hereditary",
are really the mistaken workings of a person's subconscious mind. True.

sk8Joyful said:

Don't feel bad, most everyone does not understand 'genetics'.
Some scientists tried, via the Human-genome project to prove that many diseases are due to faulty genes.

The problem with that, of course is that the human genome only has about twice the genes of much simpler animals
like a nematode (roundworm) or fruit fly ; and therefore can not possibly 'cause' all these diseases your mentioned, or numerous other variations.

Click to expand...

I don't know about that, but there are some conditions that are caused by a problem in the genes, e.g Down's - trisomy 21. There are other conditions that are hereditary, and there are conditions in which 1 parent might be a carrier but not develop the symptoms themselves. I've read stories where a couple have 2 children with a certain symptoms, they have tests to see what the illness is, who the carrier is and the likelihood of their having another child with that condidtion.

I don't know if there is a gene that "causes" some of the things I mentioned, but I am sure that if you went to a doctor with certain symptoms and said, "there is a history of heart disease in my family", that would be one area that they'd look at first, or at least be aware of the link. I've filled in medical forms that ask you your family history, probably for much the same reason - so that they can see if you might have a tendency towards a certain disease.

Now whether there are actual genes that they can isolate and blame for that illness, or whether it is "co-incidence", or the fact that sufferers have the same diet, breathe the same air, or whatever, I don't know. Personally I think if doctors say that some things run in families, or your chances of getting .... is greater because your parents had it, then that is a good enough link for me. It might not be a strictly genetic link, but the effects will be the same. Then again, it could just be that doctors haven't found the gene responsible for a particular illness yet.

sk8Joyful said:

The 2nd. fact to consider is that GOD created us to change our genes consistently, so long as we live. For example, when a virus invades your body, your subconscious mind has to first identify the foreign critter, and including previous experience, it then sets out to create *antibodies* as defense. An antibody is a protein, your subconscious mind makes to annihilate/kill the enemy, to restore you to health & wellbeing Such experiences also change your gene-structure.

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That doesn't make sense. If that were the case then why can't we change the colour of our eyes or skin? And why can't Down's kids have gene therapy so that their Down's is cured?

And theologically speaking, I'm not sure that God can change our genes - or at least, he probably can, but would he? Genes are made up of DNA, a person's DNA is, I think, pretty much unique, and makes you who you are. King David didn't know this, but he said that we are fearfully and wonderfully made - by God. This is why is has become so important, and successful, in tracing a culprit in a crime; it's called a genetic fingerprint. Men can also get tests done to prove, or otherwise, that they are the father of a child. We do inherit certain physical characteristics from our parents, and this is because of our genes. If you are asking God to change your genes, then you are asking him to change the person he created you to be; the whole structure of your make up. If he was willing to do this, think of the chaos that would be caused if a man raped someone, became Christian or repented before he was caught and asked God to change his DNA so that someone else would be charged with the crime.
Why would anyone want God to change who he made them to be? Take away an illness, yes; heal them from a hereditary condition, I believe that's possible too. But change the colour of their eyes/shape of their face or whatever just because a person may ask him to?


I'll have to look up some of the medical details for the rest of your post. I think I see what you're getting at, but it doesn't sound right.

But this still has nothing to do with the subject of unforgiveness. If a child is born with Down's, Cystic fibrosis or whatever, even if doctors proved that no gene at all was responsible for their condition, how could anyone say that it was due to the foetus not having forgiven someone while it was developing in the womb? And how can you prove that any illness has been caused by the sufferers inability to forgive, unless the Lord reveals it as being such?

Merlin said:

That's what they're trained to do.
body=biomachine



"I forgive you" are words, not a magical incantation.
I didn't say speak words.
I said forgive.
how does that fit their training that body=bio~machine?

They are trained to cut, burn, poison.
That doesn't heal.

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You obviously know nothing about medical training. Yes, we get a LOT of hard science. We also have to have an introduction to psychiatry, and get training in the humanistic aspects of science. I haven't even taken diff. diagnosis yet, and already know that "psychosomatic" goes straight on the list for a number of chronic problems. It's been drilled into our head since day 1 to look at a person as more than just a biomachine. (And just to speak from personal experience, last time I went to the doctor for some health issues I've been having, he told me it WAS psychosomatic, and didn't give me any meds.)

Yes, we know that stress, anxiety, etc contribute to chronic ailments. (Note: I said "contribute", not "cause".) A lot of these things are called "triggers" - somebody may be genetically predisposed to diabetes, say, but never develop it until something stressful triggers it.

However, nor does that downplay the "biomachine" part of it. It would be just as much malpractice and medical error to tell someone with a clearly physical cause of their ailment to go forgive someone as it is to keep prescribing unnecessary drugs.

This post is quite insulting to those of us training in the medical profession.

sk8Joyful said:

Don't feel bad, most everyone does not understand 'genetics'.
Some scientists tried, via the Human-genome project to prove that many diseases are due to faulty genes.

The problem with that, of course is that the human genome only has about twice the genes of much simpler animals
like a nematode (roundworm) or fruit fly ; and therefore can not possibly 'cause' all these diseases your mentioned, or numerous other variations.

The 2nd. fact to consider is that GOD created us to change our genes consistently, so long as we live. For example, when a virus invades your body, your subconscious mind has to first identify the foreign critter, and including previous experience, it then sets out to create *antibodies* as defense. An antibody is a protein, your subconscious mind makes to annihilate/kill the enemy, to restore you to health & wellbeing Such experiences also change your gene-structure.

And a 3rd. fact, is that many healers (including at least 2 in this thread) around the world have, and continue helping other people, from diseases, heal

Hence this shows you that in most instances, the sick conditions people are "taught as hereditary",
are really the mistaken workings of a person's subconscious mind. True.

Click to expand...

No, the immune response doesn't change our gene structure. Doesn't involve the subconscious mind either - B cells, T cells, plasma cells, etc will still recognize foreign invaders and produce antibodies even if they're removed from the body. That's the whole principle behind passive immunity. There's a lot we don't know, but the immune response is one of those humdrum biomachine things that we have to learn in intricate detail (or try to learn and nearly fail the test...)

Oh, and antibodies don't actually kill the foreign invader. They're a signal to phagocytes which do.

Melethiel said:

You obviously know nothing about medical training. Yes, we get a LOT of hard science. We also have to have an introduction to psychiatry, and get training in the humanistic aspects of science. I haven't even taken diff. diagnosis yet, and already know that "psychosomatic" goes straight on the list for a number of chronic problems. It's been drilled into our head since day 1 to look at a person as more than just a biomachine. (And just to speak from personal experience, last time I went to the doctor for some health issues I've been having, he told me it WAS psychosomatic, and didn't give me any meds.)

Yes, we know that stress, anxiety, etc contribute to chronic ailments. (Note: I said "contribute", not "cause".) A lot of these things are called "triggers" - somebody may be genetically predisposed to diabetes, say, but never develop it until something stressful triggers it.

However, nor does that downplay the "biomachine" part of it. It would be just as much malpractice and medical error to tell someone with a clearly physical cause of their ailment to go forgive someone as it is to keep prescribing unnecessary drugs.

This post is quite insulting to those of us training in the medical profession.

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Amen.

This post is full of insulting idiots.

Melethiel said:

No, the immune response doesn't change our gene structure. Doesn't involve the subconscious mind either - B cells, T cells, plasma cells, etc will still recognize foreign invaders and produce antibodies even if they're removed from the body. That's the whole principle behind passive immunity. There's a lot we don't know, but the immune response is one of those humdrum biomachine things that we have to learn in intricate detail (or try to learn and nearly fail the test...)

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Amen, again.

You know, perhaps the reason I've suffered from a chronic, debilitating illness for the last fourteen years is because I haven't forgiven enough. Perhaps my life of suffering and constant and pain is because of some idiotic, moron-made theory that 95% of chronic illnesses are caused by a lack of forgiveness.

Because, oh yes, when I finally forgive that person against whom I secretly holding a grudge (and btw, this theory basically legitimizes religious discrimination against the chronically ill; well done), my adrenal glands and my myelin sheath will magically regrow!!

If I want to be mocked and disparaged because of my physical disabilities, I'll go to my bosses and professors. I get enough from non-empathetic senior persons in my life without having to be spiritually criticized on CF.