Headship-Different Viewpoint

[Living4Him03]

Today I was listening to Jill Briscoe on the radio and she was saying that the true purpose of headship is that God has given men the responsibility to ensure that the original relationship of equality that was between Adam and Eve is restored. Because, after the fall, or as a result of the fall, the concept of headship has been distorted from God's intentions for men and women. She believes women are seen by men as the deceiver not the deceived and because of this men have oppressed women and that's why women in many countries are covered up. Women are seen as the deceivers and the temptresses.

She said a lot more but I can't remember it all! Its definitely different than what I've heard being raised southern baptist. I have not heard much about Jill Briscoe's credibility though. She does seem to be consistent with scripture.

Does anyone listen to her? What do you think of her? What do you think of her view on headship?

 

[PrNcSsChRmNg91]

I never listened to her and I really don't know her at all so I can't judge. With the headship - everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I believe that the head of a marriage should be Jesus Christ, and that we are to submit to him.

She believes women are seen by men as the deceiver not the deceived and because of this men have oppressed women and that's why women in many countries are covered up. Women are seen as the deceivers and the temptresses.

This is the only part I agree with. Gen 3:16 - To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you." I believe that it says in this verse that man will rule over her (ex: abuse, rape ect.) and that people will believe that women are inferior. I don't see it as "Oh you have to submit to your husbands in everything because he is the head". And now there are women that believe they are superior to men, so there shows "yet your desire will be for your husband" meaning that she would want to rule him and he would want to rule her.

Okeyz, I'm done.

 

[jshanks3]

And now there are women that believe they are superior to men, so there shows "yet your desire will be for your husband" meaning that she would want to rule him and he would want to rule her.

I believe that the "yet your desire will be for your husband" is pretty straight forward: I think most women at some point have a desire for a strong husband to stand behind and to love her with all his heart. I think it's the women who have been especially hurt by men through-out their life that are now saying that they are superior...

 

[jshanks3]

I have heard Jill Brisco, and I've really liked what I've heard so far. I've also heard her husband speak and he is good to, but I do not recall his name.

 

[Kepa]

I never listened to her and I really don't know her at all so I can't judge. With the headship - everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I believe that the head of a marriage should be Jesus Christ, and that we are to submit to him.



This is the only part I agree with. Gen 3:16 - To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you." I believe that it says in this verse that man will rule over her (ex: abuse, rape ect.) and that people will believe that women are inferior. I don't see it as "Oh you have to submit to your husbands in everything because he is the head". And now there are women that believe they are superior to men, so there shows "yet your desire will be for your husband" meaning that she would want to rule him and he would want to rule her.

Okeyz, I'm done.

Good post.

 

[eutychus]

She believes women are seen by men as the deceiver not the deceived and because of this men have oppressed women and that's why women in many countries are covered up. Women are seen as the deceivers and the temptresses.

In Muslim countries wearing layers of clothing and veils is a sign of protection for the female so that she doesn't fall into sexual sin. Makes sense in a way. Solid Muslim women find wearing such clothing dignified, as it is a sign of their commitment to Allah.

As to the headship issue...I'd like to see more Scripture that isn't so slanted. I haven't listened to the speaker much, but she seems Scripturally liberal.

For instance, take the following verses:
1 Cor. 11:3, "But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ."

Eph. 5:22-24, "Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church. He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything."

Also, though it's hard to swallow, 1 Pet. 3:7, "You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered."

I'd buy into what she said if Scripture emphasized that the reason women were seen as being subject to their husbands was not placing God into the perspective whatsoever. OK, so maybe then I might not even buy into it...

 

[Living4Him03]

Huh? First, in Muslim countries women are oppressed, and you just indicated that without knowing it. To say they are covered so they won't fall into sexual sin translates to " we cover up our women so they won't tempt us because they are the deceivers, the temptresses" so it's really more for men than women. Don't let Muslims make you think their religion is wonderful to women or that it considers them equal to men.

I don't understand why you won't "buy into it" when you haven't even explained the scripture you posted. If you explain it maybe I can get a picture of where you are coming from. Jill explains those scriptures, and she does not deviate from evangelical Chrisitianity. You forgot to mention other scriptures, which call for us to submit to one another. Those verses seem very negative for women, but you really have to read them in their full context (culturally, time period, what words actually meant, etc.).

 

[Cordy]

Women are often viewed as the deceivers. Women, as you have mentioned, are supposed to cover up in many places around the world because it is thought that she is seducing men. Even in the last century in North America, a rape was considered the woman’s fault.

I think it is also wrong to view women as “easily deceivable” as well. This idea really permeates the Christian culture. I have heard men from the pulpit preach that women should not teach or lead because they is so easily deceived. They refer to the Garden of Eden and talk about how Eve took the fruit from the snake because she was deceived (and Adam was not). And this someone demonstrates that women should always have a man leading her so she does not get deceived like Eve did and then cause men to sin. I admit I get upset when I hear this and wonder if these people are actually reading their Bibles.

Genesis 3:6 “So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband WITH HER, and he ate.”

The man is right beside her! She didn’t go and find Adam and seduce him nor was she deceived because she was alone and left to her “easily deceivable” feminine nature. It seems that Adam was there for the whole snake speech, and did not say any reminders to his dear Eve that she should not take the fruit. They took the fruit TOGETHER! They were both tempted, both sinned and both fell – together.

 

[eutychus]

First off, I apologize if I sounded hasty and unclear. Didn't mean to come across that way...I probably should have reread what I typed!

Huh? First, in Muslim countries women are oppressed, and you just indicated that without knowing it. To say they are covered so they won't fall into sexual sin translates to " we cover up our women so they won't tempt us because they are the deceivers, the temptresses" so it's really more for men than women. Don't let Muslims make you think their religion is wonderful to women or that it considers them equal to men.

I didn't mean to express that I believed Islam taught egalitarianism. I know that it is a male-dominated religion, and salvation is taught to be given to males and only definitely given to females through their children's death in jihad. Women do not have the same rights in court, with inheritence, or in marriage. I was just trying to explain that what the West doesn't understand is that there are many "Koran-thumping" Muslim women who wear the hijab and other overly-modest coverings not because they are oppressed, but because it is a symbol of their faith in Islam and their separation and roles of womanhood. In addition to this, they see the veil as an added source of protection against the sexual sin that, consequently, can be seen so prevalent in America today.

I apologize for not mentioning before my background, and even though in it I am ignorant, but I am studying missions with an emphasis on evangelizing Muslim women. Though in my studies I do see the great amount of oppression experienced by these fine creatures of God (one of the motivations God uses to inspire me to continue in this work), women who are faithful to the Koran wear the veil gladly.

I don't understand why you won't "buy into it" when you haven't even explained the scripture you posted.

Once more, my bad. A lot of times I hate to elaborate on Scripture (mostly due to my own fallen nature and aptness to think incorrectly) and just let it speak for itself, but I now understand why some clarification would be nice!

You forgot to mention other scriptures, which call for us to submit to one another.

We are to submit to one another, you're right! In a marriage relationship, husbands' bodies are owned by their wives and vise versa. Ephesians 5:33 even reminds the men that they are supposed to love their wives just as he loves himself. Man and womn are interdependent and both owe their origin to God, amen!

Those verses seem very negative for women, but you really have to read them in their full context (culturally, time period, what words actually meant, etc.).

Those verses aren't negative against women at all! What an awesome role God has given us as his daughters! It's cool how he fits everything into place just so.

As to the contextual argument, the only verse that could be brought up into context would be 1 Tim 2:9-15, which hasn't even been brought into question in this discussion because that would be irrelevant. The other verses apply strictly to the relationships between males and females, with no deviance from the Christian living that is required today. Notice that when context applies, the writer strictly says that it is his desire for such and such to occur. In the verses I mentioned, said introduction can't be found, and therefore the reader is to take the text as truth applicable beyond time and culture.

To explain the verses I posted before:

1 Cor. 11:3, "But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ."

Paul explains to the Corinthian church in 1 Cor. 11 the subject of Christian order so that worship would not be interrupted with the inappropriate demeanor of men and women as they prayed or prophesied. Paul emphasized that God made men and women differently, and each should carry him or herself according to his or her sex.

Eph 5:22-24, "Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church. He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything."

From Eph. 4:17-6:20, Paul gives his audience practical instruction for Christian living. Paul spends Eph. 5:22-33 on the relationship between husbands and wives, after first speaking about the new life in Christ in contrast to the old. After this section regarding the relationship between husbands and wives, Paul goes on to explain other relationships in the household and finally how Chrisitans should share in spiritual conflict.

To clarify the quoted verses, let's continue in Eph. 5:25-33, "Husbands, love your wives just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but tat she would be holy and blameless. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must also see to it that she respects her husband." (emphasis not mine)

Notice the extensive metaphor between the husband-wife relationship that is the relationship between Jesus and the church. Just as Christ is the head of the church, so is the husband the head of the wife. Very beautiful pictures God paints!

1 Pet. 3:7, "You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered."

1 Pet. 3:1-7 speaks of household codes which were instructions for relationships and behavior in typical life-situation such as those within a family, those between masters and slaves, and attitudes towards civil authorities.

1 Pet. 3:1-9 states in full, "In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior. Your adornment must not be merely external--braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God. For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands; just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear. You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a women; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered. To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing."

God gives women the awesome responsibility of being submissive to their husbands to magnify God. Also note that this submission is an issue of the heart, as this passage emphasizes. Submission to a husband with the wrong heart reaps nothing, for there's no respect involved. Instead, a woman should gladly submit to her husband, acknowledging his authority.

Hope that helps a little!

 

[Tenorvoice]

I know that hey are long but I think that everyone could get something out of these two sermons from John MacArthur:

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/1944.HTM and
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/1945.HTM

These deal with God's Pattern for Wives. He also has some on God's Pattern for Husbands http://www.biblebb.com/mac-a-g.htm under Family 2

peace