"He who practices righteousness is righteous" (1 John 3:7)

Brightfame52 said:

It sounds like to me, you base salvation/eternal life on man, on what man does ! Thats heresy friend if you do. Believing is an act of the man, a work !

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Easy to accuse without evidence.

I quoted the Scriptures.

Blessings

setst777 said:

The promise Spiritual life is only for the New Covenant by Faith in Jesus:

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First, you did not explain at least a few of the key verses I have put forth to you, brother.

Second, while I believe all OT saints were born again, I alsio believe only the prophets, kings, and select individuals had the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament.

For it is written:

“And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!” (Numbers 11:29).

Also, when we read 1 Peter 1:11 it says, "the Spirit of Christ which was in them"

Now, who do you suppose Peter was talking about? OT or NT believers here in this?

See verse 10 (1 Peter 1:10).

You said:

Galatians 3:21-22 (WEB) For if there had been a law given which could make alive, most certainly righteousness would have been of the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned all things under sin so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

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Well, again, we first have to understand why Paul was arguing against the false belief that was trying to deceive new Gentile Christians into thinking that they had to be circumcised in order to be initially and foundationally saved. This false belief was defined for us at the Jerusalem council.


Paul also argued against this false belief that said you had to be first circumcised in order to be saved.


In other words, if a person believed they had to be circumcised in order to be initially saved, then they would be making the Law the basis of their salvation. Therefore, Paul needed to make his point that the Law alone view of salvation by the Jews was false. This was the argument he was trying to make. Paul was not saying that one could not have life before the Incarnation of Jesus Christ, and or before the New Covenant began with Christ's death. He is merely saying that there was no Law that could bring life. Only by the Spirit can a person be made alive and this happened even before the Incarnation. For even John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit since his birth (See: Luke 1:15). John the Baptist was born before Jesus was.

But again, you cannot ignore Galatians 4 that says that Isaac was born of the Spirit, and then it relates to how that is still happening today.

“Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.” (Galatians 4:28-29).

You said:

John 7:37-39 (WEB)
37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

John 4:13-14 (WEB) Bolding mine
13 Jesus answered her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

The Spirit of Christ IN you is when regeneration begins. We only receive the Spirit by faith.

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I believe we receive a new heart first, and then we receive the Spirit (quickly thereafter).
For the heart needs to be cleaned, the spiritual temple needs to be cleansed in order for the Holy Spirt to dwell in a believer.

Anyways, the receiving of the Holy Spirit and the giving of a new heart (being born again) are two different things. OT prophets and kings only had the Holy Spirit, but every genuine faithful believer had a new heart with new desires from their old man or self throughout both the Old Testament, and the New. Again, I already made my case to you before about how the OT saint is born again, as well.

You said:

Romans 8:9-10 (WEB) 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

The Spirit IN us is how we are made alive.

That is why Lord Jesus said that by faith in Him we are turned from death to life, darkness to light.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 8:12 (WEB) 12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. (Isaiah 60:1). He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.

John 12:46 (WEB)
46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in the darkness

Colossians 2:12 (WEB) 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Galatians 3:21-22 (WEB) For if there had been a law given which could make alive, most certainly righteousness would have been of the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned all things under sin so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

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Right, this is all describing the New Covenant saint in how all NT saints can receive the Spirit, but that does not exclude the Old Covenant saint in being born again spiritually. Again, I don't believe the average OT saint had the Holy Spirit but they were born again, though. Only prophets and kings had the Holy Spirit. Just look again at my list of verses in my first post to you on this topic. You need to address those verses.

setst777 said:

Works surely are the fruits of a true Gospel Faith in Jesus.

When we repent and put our faith in Jesus (Acts 20:29-21), we are committing to deny serving the carnal mind as a slave to its desires (Romans 6), and we now commit our entire lives to listen to and serve our rightful Master, Lord Jesus into a holy life of righteousness and love, just as Baptism represents (Romans 6; Colossians 3:1-14), and as Lord Jesus taught us (Luke 9:23-26; Luke 14:33; Matthew 13:44-45).

This total change of purpose in life is how we reveal our love for Jesus (John 14:21; John 14:23).

This total change in purpose means we are now living out a holy life of righteousness and love demonstrated by good works.

Why? Because that is our purpose for living - to follow Jesus, observing all things He has commanded of us.

By this faith the Spirit indwells us (Acts 5:32) to lead our faith to victory, but only as we continue to live, walk, and sow to the Spirit who indwells us by faith (John 7:37-39; Romans 8:12-14; Galatians 6:7-9.

In fact, becoming disciples of Jesus is the purpose of the Gospel preaching work (Matthew 28:19-20).

Matthew 28:19-20 (WEB) 19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

This faith is, therefore, a new life in Christ Jesus demonstrated in holiness (separate or sanctified) onto God into a life of righteousness and love (Romans 6:1-5; Colossians 3:1-14; Ephesians 4:17-32).

This holiness results in eternal life (Romans 6:21-22; Hebrews 12:14-17).

Good works necessarily flow from this repentance and faith – the Gospel Faith. This is called ‘walking in the Spirit’ (Galatians 5:13-25; Romans 8:3-4), and is how we abide or remain in Christ Jesus to be saved (John 15:1-10).

Blessings

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So you are saying that works of faith or holy living will just naturally flow from a believer who
That God changes them to such a point that they no longer have free will any more?

If so, I don't believe the Bible teaches that.
repents?

To some extent, I believe a true Christian is changed spiritually after they seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus and believe the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. But I don't believe that the NT saint's free will is removed.

We are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).

Side Note:

Think about the “work of faith” mentioned by the apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, 2 Thessalonians 1:11. Is “work” really separated from the “work of faith” involving “of the faith”? Remember, by faith, the great heroes of faith were able to do the work of faith in Hebrews 11. Also, think about the word “FAITHFUL.” Is this word a belief alone in Jesus, or does it involve us in doing something? Why does God's Word tell a specific church to be faithful unto death whereby they will receive the crown of life if it is just some kind of automatic thing? (See again: Revelation 2:10).

setst777 said:

agree with all you wrote, all God's blessings come through Faith in Lord Jesus.

You misunderstand what faith means according to all the Scriptures, many of which were quoted for you.

You reject repentance as an essential necessity

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Your saying so doesn't make it so.

As far as I'm concerned, your response above - at least in respect to my views - is totally false, a flat-out lie, really.

set777

I see nothing reasonable about assuming something the Scripture does not teach or state.

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The difference between you and I, I see things in scripture you cant see.

This is your assumption.

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No its fact, you dont see, but I do !

Read Philippians 1:29 in context and you will see that "grant" does not mean "giving as a gift", but rather, it is a "given" reality to not only believe but also to suffer for Him.

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Been there and done that. Faith/belief is given to some, the Sheep on behalf of Christ !

Yes, the Father gives the Sheep to Christ, but not so they can believe, but because they believe.

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Thats false, and is nothing more than salvation by works/conditions cleverly disguised.

setst777 said:

99% of that Post is pure Scripture. Are you saying that God's Word is heresy?

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lol, u said it, only 99% was scripture, the other 1 % is heresy, a little leaven spoils the whole lump

Gal 5 9
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Thats how false teaching fools many, just alter the truth a very little !

setst777 said:

Easy to accuse without evidence.

I quoted the Scriptures.

Blessings

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Its clear that you teach conditional salvation. You condition it on a persons believing/faith. Dont you ?

BCsenior said:

Your utter nonsense deserves NO response!

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Thank you for replying anyway.

aiki said:

I don't conceptualize the Christian life as you have here. I see laid out in Scripture a very different sort of experience with God. When I was born-again by the Spirit (Titus 3:5; Romans 8:9-11) in response to my placing my trust in Christ as my Saviour and Lord (Romans 10:9-10), I obtained a spiritual "inheritance" in Christ (Ephesians 1:11; Ephesians 2:6-7; Galatians 4:1-6), a new spiritual life and identity in him (2 Corinthians 5:17), that was given to me in the Person of the Holy Spirit. At the moment of my conversion, I obtained in the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9) redemption, justification, sanctification, freedom from the power of sin and Self (1 Corinthians 1:30Romans 6; Galatians 5:24), and have become a "temple" of God (1 Corinthians 6:19).

All of these things I obtained, not by dint of my own effort, but as a gift of God. Spiritually, in Christ, all of the things Scripture says about me as a child of God are fully accomplished facts - my spiritual position in Christ - bestowed upon me in the Person of the Spirit. By faith, I live these realities out in my daily condition (or living), not in order to make them true of me, but because they are already true of me. I live out who I am in Christ because I am in him, not because I can work my way into being in him.

I am "accepted in the Beloved" (Ephesians 1:6) and ONLY in him am I accepted by God. If I am not fully justified and sanctified by Christ, I cannot be one of God's children. ONLY Christ's perfect righteousness and atoning sacrifice can satisfy God's holiness and justice. What, then, can I add to what is already perfect? Nothing. Nothing at all. God is totally satisfied with Christ and so long as I am in him, justified and sanctified in him (1 Corinthians 1:30), God is satisfied with me, too. Therefore, my salvation, who is Christ (John 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 Timothy 2:5), and in whom I "live, and move, and have my being" is secure, not resting upon my good works, but upon the perfect Saviour.

And so, Paul frequently writes to the various believers in the Early Church to be who they are in Christ, to live in accord with their already fully accomplished identity in him. He doesn't appeal to fear in motivating them to righteousness, to threats of lost salvation, but to their identity, their spiritual position, in Christ. Romans 6 is a prime example of this, or Ephesians 4:17-24, or Colossians 2:6-15, and so on.

Really, it is, in my view, a sort of blasphemy to think that one can earn through righteous, persevering self-effort what it took the perfect atoning sacrifice of Christ to obtain. Such blasphemous thinking elevates the believer to the place of co-Saviour, making their efforts to live righteously the key to their being saved. This is like having Rembrandt paint a masterpiece for you and and then adding your own touches of paint to it so its really yours. Doing so can do nothing but lessen - ruin, even - the painting! But this is what works-salvation does. It adds the creature's "paint," their self-effort, to the "masterpiece" of Christ's salvific work on the cross! What hubris to think one can add anything to the perfection of Christ's atonement, or that such an addition is in the least necessary. But this is the prideful, self-centered essence of works-salvation.

Romans 4:5
5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Romans 11:5-6
5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Galatians 3:2-7
2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—
6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.

Colossians 2:20-23
20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations—
21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch”
22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings?
23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

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Not by works but by Faith.

God's atoning sacrifice, and all God's Power onto salvation is accessed by repentance and faith in Lord Jesus (John 3:16; Romans 5:1-2; Romans 1:16-17) and endure in that faith to the end.

Hebrews 12:14-17 (WEB)
14 Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man will see the Lord, 15 looking carefully lest there be any man who falls short of the grace of God, lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and many be defiled by it, 16 lest there be any sexually immoral person, or profane person, like Esau, who sold his birthright for one meal. 17 For you know that even when he afterward desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for a change of mind though he sought it diligently with tears.

1 Corinthians 10:1-12 (WEB)
1 Now I would not have you ignorant, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 and were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ. 5 However with most of them, God was not well pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 7 Don’t be idolaters, as some of them were. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” [Exodus 32:6]
8 Let us not commit sexual immorality, as some of them committed, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell. 9 Let’s not test Christ, as some of them tested, and perished by the serpents.
10 Do not grumble, as some of them also grumbled, and perished by the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened to them by way of example, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands be careful that he doesn’t fall.

Luke 9:23-26 (WEB)
23 He said to all, “If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever will lose his life for my sake, will save it.

Luke 21:19 (WEB) Speaking to His followers
19 By your endurance you will win your lives.

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB) Speaking to His followers
34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Romans 11:20-22 (WEB)
20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

1 Corinthians 9:23-27 (WEB)
I fight like that, not beating the air, 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we do not give up.

Ephesians 5:3-9 (WEB)
5 Know this for sure, that no sexually immoral person, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words. For because of these things, the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. 8 For you were once darkness, but are now light in the Lord. Walk as children of light, 9 for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

2 Thessalonians 1:5 (WEB)
5 This is an obvious sign of the righteous judgment of God, to the end that you may be counted worthy of God’s Kingdom, for which you also suffer.

1 Timothy 1:18-20 (WEB)18 I commit this instruction to you, my child Timothy, according to the prophecies which were given to you before, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 holding faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away made a shipwreck concerning the faith

2 Timothy 2:11-14 (WEB)
11 This saying is trustworthy:
“For if we died with him, we will also live with him.
If we endure, we will also reign with him.
If we deny him, he also will deny us.
If we are faithless, he remains faithful; for he can’t deny himself.”
14 Remind them of these things, charging them in the sight of the Lord, that they do not argue about words, to no profit, to the subverting of those who hear.

1 Timothy 4:1-2 (WEB) 4 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 through the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron

1 Timothy 4:14-16 (WEB) 14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the elders. 15 Be diligent in these things. Give yourself wholly to them, that your progress may be revealed to all. 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

1 Timothy 6:18-21 (WEB)
18 that they do good, that they be rich in good works, that they be ready to distribute, willing to share; 19 laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold of eternal life.
20 Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from the faith.

Hebrews 3:12-15 (WEB)12 Beware, brothers, lest perhaps there might be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”, lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said,
“Today if you will hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” Psalm 95:7-8

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB)
11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

James 1:12-16 (WEB)
12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God,” for God can’t be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust and enticed. 15 Then the lust, when it has conceived, bears sin. The sin, when it is full grown, produces death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.

1 Peter 1:13-19 (WEB)
13 Therefore prepare your minds for action. Be sober, and set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ — 14 as children of obedience, not conforming yourselves according to your former lusts as in your ignorance, 15 but just as he who called you is holy, you yourselves also be holy in all of your behavior; 16 because it is written, “You shall be holy; for I am holy.” [Leviticus 11:44-45] 17 If you call on him as Father, who without respect of persons judges according to each man’s work, pass the time of your living as foreigners here in reverent fear, 18 knowing that you were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from the useless way of life handed down from your fathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish or spot, the blood of Christ

2 Peter 1:10-11 (WEB)
10 Therefore, brothers, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 2:1-2 (WEB)
2 But false prophets also arose among the people, as false teachers will also be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction. 2 Many will follow their immoral ways, and as a result, the way of the truth will be maligned.

2 Peter 3:11-12 (WEB)
11 Therefore since all these things will be destroyed like this, what kind of people ought you to be in holy living and godliness, 12 looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, which will cause the burning heavens to be dissolved, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

2 Peter 3:17-18 (WEB)
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand, beware, lest being carried away with the error of the wicked, you fall from your own steadfastness. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

1 John 2:15-17 (WEB)
15 Do not love the world or the things that are in the world. If anyone loves the world, the Father’s love isn’t in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, isn’t the Father’s, but is the world’s. 17 The world is passing away with its lusts, but he who does God’s will remains forever.

Revelation 3:1-5 (WEB)
1 “I know your works, that you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 14:12-13 (WEB)
12 Here is the perseverance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” 13 I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors; for their works follow with them.”

Blessings

aiki said:

Your saying so doesn't make it so.

As far as I'm concerned, your response above - at least in respect to my views - is totally false, a flat-out lie, really.

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Not my saying, but by the Word of God. That is what I keep directing you to obey.

aiki said:

And why would such endurance occur? Because the one who endures to the end is indwelt by the Spirit - saved, born again - who enables by His power such endurance (1 Corinthians 1:7-9; Philippians 1:6; Philippians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, etc.). Enduring to the end, is a manifestation of genuine salvation not the means of it.

This is true of every other verse you might supply that appears to you to support a works-salvation doctrine.

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So you believe the Spirit lives out your faith for you and endures for you? Not according to God’s Word.

A true Christian, one who is truly in the Faith, is obligated to continually live, walk, and sow to the Spirit of Christ, who indwells them by faith, for the Spirit to lead us and to receive life – not that the Spirit lives your faith for you:

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV) 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we do not give up.

Galatians 5:24-25 (NIV) 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

God demands our faithfulness to inherit the free gift of eternal life. You can ignore these Scriptures, and all the rest, but that does not negate The Gospel.

So we are obligated to live by the Spirit to endure in the faith to the end.

Many Christians will be deceived, thinking the Spirit will live your faith, and endure for you, as with Aiki’s teaching, and so takes all the responsibility off of the Christian to remain faithful to His Lord. That kind of thinking insults the Spirit. Such persons are already lost according to the Scriptures I just quoted.

Many Christians grieve (Ephesians 4:30-32), quench (1 Thessalonians 5:19-22), and insult (Hebrews 10:29-30) Spirit who dwells in them, and so God cannot lead them, or live in them, unless they repent.

Why are they not enduring?

The reason is, they forgot their obligation to the Spirit – to live, walk, and sow to the Spirit, so that the Spirit can do His saving work in us.

Such Christians are in danger of condemnation unless they repent, just as the Scriptures teach.

The other Scriptures you quoted out of context. Here is the context:

Philippians 1:2-9 (WEB) 2 Grace to you, and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 I thank my God whenever I remember you, 4 always in every request of mine on behalf of you all, making my requests with joy, 5 for your partnership in furtherance of the Good News from the first day until now; 6 being confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. 7 It is even right for me to think this way on behalf of all of you, because I have you in my heart, because both in my bonds and in the defense and confirmation of the Good News, you all are partakers with me of grace.

Paul’s confidence is not a guarantee of their faithfulness, rather, that is how he desires to think of them (Verse 7).

Paul also said the following to the Philippians:

Philippians 1:27 (WEB) Only let your way of life be worthy of the Good News of Christ, that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your state, that you stand firm in one spirit, with one soul striving for The Faith of the Gospel

We see no guarantee given by Paul that the Philippians will stand firm, striving for the Gospel.

The same with your other quotes, you are misleading others by not quoting the context.

aiki said:

setst777 said: ↑

Pretty good.

Would you say that Lord Jesus definition of repentance agrees with how you defined it?

Luke 9:23-26 (WEB)
23 He said to all, “If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever will lose his life for my sake, will save it.

Aikie Responds: Where does Jesus speak of repentance in these verses? Where does the word "repent" or "repentance" or "repenting" or "repented" appear in them? Nowhere. Why, then, offer these verses as some sort of answer to my definition of repentance? They say nothing about repentance!

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?? You defined what repentance was, and now it seems you have forgotten.

The terms “faith” and “repentance” do not have to be continually repeated. The whole New Testament is the Gospel Faith written down to instruct the Church. Were you aware of that?

In addition, your explanation of Romans 6 can be thrown out, because Romans 6 is plain to understand by just reading it. Paul wrote the Romans 6 as instruction the Roman Church was to live by, not that the Spirit does it all for you.

The whole context keeps driving home the point that we are not to live a sinful life as we did before, but rather, to live as slaves of righteousness – something we are instructed to do. Only these will inherit eternal life. That is the new life in Christ Jesus - dead to the old life, and now living as slaves to righteousness. Read Romans 6.

aiki said:

setst777 said: ↑

Repentance towards God and faith in Lord Jesus is the Gospel Faith by which God saves us, and is defined by Scripture as:

• A commitment to deny (Luke 9:23-26), renounce (Ephesians 4:17-24; Ephesians 5:6-14), put off (Colossians 3:9), put to death (Colossians 3:3-8) crucify (Galatians 5:24), and die to (Colossians 3:3) the old life controlled by sinful passions, and then
• By faith we are instructed to now commit to live for the new purpose of following Lord Jesus into a holy or sanctified, life of righteousness and love (Romans 6; Colossians 3:1-17, Ephesians 4:15-31).
• That is why the Gospel was preached: Matthew 28:19-20
• This is the new life in Christ Jesus (Romans 6:1-5).
• When we commit to this Gospel Faith, as described, the Spirit indwells us (Acts 5:32; John 14:15-17; John 14:23; Acts 2:38)
• By denying self and following Jesus into a holy life of righteousness and love, we are living and walking in the indwelling Spirit (Galatians 6:7-9; Galatians 5:24-25).
• As we faithfully commit to follow Lord Jesus in this way – living and walking by the His Spirit -the Spirit of God leads us to keep our commitment, and to work out God’s will in our lives (Philippians 2:12; Romans 8:12-14).
• Not every Christian will remain faithful, but will grieve the Spirit (Ephesians 4:30-32), quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19-22), and insult the Spirit (Hebrews 10:29-30) who indwells us by this Gospel Faith (John 7:37-39; Act 5:32) by their sinfulness.
• Others will be deceived by false teachers. Others will renounce their faith under persecution. But he who endures to the end, God promises eternal life.

Aiki responds: You do as so many believers do and conflate the effects of repentance, of a change of mind, with repentance itself. Repentance leads to faith and behaviour that reflects one's change of mind, but repentance is not, at its core, these "reflections."

In any case, your list here does what you've done all along: make the fruit of a changed life the means of it; make the apples an apple tree produces necessary to it being an apple tree, rather than merely inevitable to being a mature and healthy tree.

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Read the Scriptures and understand that, by a repentant faith, we are now obligated to live, walk, and sow to the Holy Spirit who indwells the believer to have eternal life.

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV) 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we do not give up.

Galatians 5:24-25 (NIV) 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

aiki said:

setst777 said: ↑
No Scripture states or teaches that faith onto salvation is a gift of God.

Aikie Responds:
I've given you two verses that indicate you're wrong.

Unlike 1 Corinthians 12:9, Romans 12:3 clearly indicates that God has given to each believer a measure of faith, not a special spiritual dispensation of faith to only a few - which is why, I suspect, you attempt to dismiss Romans 12:3 by way of 1 Corinthians 12:9.

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“Romans 12:3,” just like “1 Corinthians 12:9” is discussing the gifts of the Spirit to those already saved and part of the body of Christ. Read the context. Nothing you can say will change the context.

aiki said:

Paul says quite plainly that God gives each of us "repentance to the acknowledging of the truth." He illuminates our minds to His truth, the truth of the Gospel, and enables us to change our minds - repent - of our Christless thinking and living (1 Corinthians 2:10-13). But such repentance is integral to believing the Gospel; one cannot believe unto salvation without a change of mind about the Gospel, first.

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The Spirit gives understanding as we continually remain in Christ, living, walking, and sowing to the Spirit who indwells us. The Spirit will not live out your faith for you.

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV) 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we do not give up.

Galatians 5:24-25 (NIV) 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

aiki said:

setst777 said: ↑
I already know your soteriological perspective, unless you changed your position, but you didn’t as I see from the rest of your post. We had a long discussion about this very thing before in another long debate in January/February 2019, so that is the reason I responded to the Passages you provided that included that topic. And, whether you admit you are Reformist or not, everything you argued was from a Calvinist perspective to a tee.

Aikie Responds:
So, what is my soteriological perspective, then? It isn't Reformed. The Calvinist is not wrong on every point, by the way.

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I think you did change one position. I believe you use to believe no one can believe unless the Spirit indwells and gives life to them first, being dead in sin before the Spirit. Is that your view? If not, all is well.

Everything else you are espousing is liberal Calvinism. I say liberal, because, firstly, you likely are a 4-point Calvinist. And you believe living out your faith in a holy life of righteousness and love before God as a disciple of Lord Jesus is not essential to remain in the faith and so be saved, rather, that is optional.

Conservative Calvinists disagree, recognizing the responsibility of each true Elect Christian to demonstrate his faith by living out a holy and righteous life before God as the evidence that he is one of the elect. John MacArthur is one of those conservative Calvinists.

Famous liberal Calvinists are Charles Stanley and Charles Swindoll. Your views are like theirs.

Blessings

Brightfame52 said:

lol, u said it, only 99% was scripture, the other 1 % is heresy, a little leaven spoils the whole lump

Gal 5 9
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Thats how false teaching fools many, just alter the truth a very little !

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You have to show in the 1% where it is heresy. Just saying it doesn't make it so. Look at the assumptions you made on God's Word that I already had to correct you on. So, we really have to check what you say, because your assumptions are highly unreliable.

Bible Highlighter said:

First, you did not explain at least a few of the key verses I have put forth to you, brother.

Second, while I believe all OT saints were born again, I alsio believe only the prophets, kings, and select individuals had the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament.

For it is written:

“And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!” (Numbers 11:29).

Also, when we read 1 Peter 1:11 it says, "the Spirit of Christ which was in them"

Now, who do you suppose Peter was talking about? OT or NT believers here in this?

See verse 10 (1 Peter 1:10).



Well, again, we first have to understand why Paul was arguing against the false belief that was trying to deceive new Gentile Christians into thinking that they had to be circumcised in order to be initially and foundationally saved. This false belief was defined for us at the Jerusalem council.

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).​

Paul also argued against this false belief that said you had to be first circumcised in order to be saved.

“Behold, I Paul say unto you,
that if ye be circumcised,
Christ shall profit you nothing.”
(Galatians 5:2).

“But neither Titus,
who was with me, being a Greek,
was compelled to be circumcised:”
(Galatians 2:3).​

In other words, if a person believed they had to be circumcised in order to be initially saved, then they would be making the Law the basis of their salvation. Therefore, Paul needed to make his point that the Law alone view of salvation by the Jews was false. This was the argument he was trying to make. Paul was not saying that one could not have life before the Incarnation of Jesus Christ, and or before the New Covenant began with Christ's death. He is merely saying that there was no Law that could bring life. Only by the Spirit can a person be made alive and this happened even before the Incarnation. For even John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit since his birth (See: Luke 1:15). John the Baptist was born before Jesus was.

But again, you cannot ignore Galatians 4 that says that Isaac was born of the Spirit, and then it relates to how that is still happening today.

“Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.” (Galatians 4:28-29).



I believe we receive a new heart first, and then we receive the Spirit (quickly thereafter).
For the heart needs to be cleaned, the spiritual temple needs to be cleansed in order for the Holy Spirt to dwell in a believer.

Anyways, the receiving of the Holy Spirit and the giving of a new heart (being born again) are two different things. OT prophets and kings only had the Holy Spirit, but every genuine faithful believer had a new heart with new desires from their old man or self throughout both the Old Testament, and the New. Again, I already made my case to you before about how the OT saint is born again, as well.


Right, this is all describing the New Covenant saint in how all NT saints can receive the Spirit, but that does not exclude the Old Covenant saint in being born again spiritually. Again, I don't believe the average OT saint had the Holy Spirit but they were born again, though. Only prophets and kings had the Holy Spirit. Just look again at my list of verses in my first post to you on this topic. You need to address those verses.

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The Scriptures are quite clear that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit is what gives life, and that was only for the New Covenant. I did provide the Scriptures, and you did not address them.

Secondly, I do not deny that God, to create a Theocracy for Israel, indwelt the kings of Israel with the Holy Spirit, nor that the Spirit was upon the Prophets so they could speak for God. That is not the outpouring of the Spirit on believers that was only to come in the New Covenant.

Blessings

Brightfame52 said:

set777
The difference between you and I, I see things in scripture you cant see.

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You certainly can. You see things that are not there, forcing your assumptions onto the text as if it were part of Scripture. I did answer your assumptions in every case, and you could not refute it.

How do you think that makes God feel when you put words in His mouth as if that is what God "meant"? How do you feel when people do that to you?

Bible Highlighter said:

So you are saying that works of faith or holy living will just naturally flow from a believer who
That God changes them to such a point that they no longer have free will any more?

If so, I don't believe the Bible teaches that.
repents?

To some extent, I believe a true Christian is changed spiritually after they seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus and believe the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. But I don't believe that the NT saint's free will is removed.

We are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).

Side Note:

Think about the “work of faith” mentioned by the apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, 2 Thessalonians 1:11. Is “work” really separated from the “work of faith” involving “of the faith”? Remember, by faith, the great heroes of faith were able to do the work of faith in Hebrews 11. Also, think about the word “FAITHFUL.” Is this word a belief alone in Jesus, or does it involve us in doing something? Why does God's Word tell a specific church to be faithful unto death whereby they will receive the crown of life if it is just some kind of automatic thing? (See again: Revelation 2:10).

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Good morning.

You really have to read carefully what I wrote that you responded to in this message I am replying to. I never hinted, insinuated, or said, that works naturally flow from a believer. If you have been reading any of my messages and the Scriptures I quote you would not be making such an assertion.

What I do not believe, is that faith plus works saves anyone. IF your faith is truly in Jesus as your Lord, then you will listen to and follow Him into a holy life of righteousness and love, just as all the Scriptures instruct admonish us who believe.

Some people do not understand what it really means to believe in Jesus, and so they think they have to earn God's favor by their works. That is not the faith of Scripture. There is no faith plus works taught in Scripture; rather, the Scriptures oppose such a view as a false gospel.

Blessings.

setst777 said:

You have to show in the 1% where it is heresy. Just saying it doesn't make it so. Look at the assumptions you made on God's Word that I already had to correct you on. So, we really have to check what you say, because your assumptions are highly unreliable.

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You showed it already.

setst777 said:

You certainly can. You see things that are not there, forcing your assumptions onto the text as if it were part of Scripture. I did answer your assumptions in every case, and you could not refute it.

How do you think that makes God feel when you put words in His mouth as if that is what God "meant"? How do you feel when people do that to you?

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I see things spiritually in scripture, unfortunately you cannot see. God doesnt reveal truth to all friend. Matt 11:25-26

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

setst777 said:

The Scriptures are quite clear that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit is what gives life, and that was only for the New Covenant. I did provide the Scriptures, and you did not address them.

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First, none of the verses you shown says, “...To be born again is only for the new covenant of Christ.” Second, I addressed your verses with the truth of other verses (that refutes your belief). For example: Jesus said to Nicodemus that he should have been aware about being born again.

For Jesus said to Nicodemus:
"You are the teacher of Israel, and do you not know these things?” (John 3:10).

It seems understandable if Nicodemus were to have missed a future prophecy, but if being born again (circumcision of the heart) was something that happened even in the Old Testament, then Jesus' statement here to Nicodemus really makes a lot more sense.

Again, you did not explain Galatians 4:28-29 in how Isaac who was born of the Spirit was persecuted (i.e. persecuted by Ishmael).

“Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.” (Galatians 4:28-29).

We see in Genesis 21, where Ishmael (born after the flesh) persecuted Isaac (who was born after the Spirit).

“But Sarah saw Ishmael—the son of Abraham and her Egyptian servant Hagar—making fun of her son, Isaac.” (Genesis 21:9) (NLT).

What makes more sense? That today: Unbelievers are persecuting children who were miraculously born by elderly parents? Or unbelievers are persecuting those who are simply born again spiritually today?

For Galatians 4:28-29 says this persecution is going on even now.

You said:

Secondly, I do not deny that God, to create a Theocracy for Israel, indwelt the kings of Israel with the Holy Spirit, nor that the Spirit was upon the Prophets so they could speak for God. That is not the outpouring of the Spirit on believers that was only to come in the New Covenant.

Blessings

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I am glad we can agree on certain things.

Brightfame52 said:

Its clear that you teach conditional salvation. You condition it on a persons believing/faith. Dont you ?

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What do the Scriptures teach?

God’s intention is to

• have mercy on all the disobedient (Romans 11:32)
• because God desires to save all (1 Timothy 2:3-4),
• and has no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18:30-32; Ezekiel 33:11)

But God Sovereign Plan is to save those who believe in His Son because of the Gospel.

John 3:14-16 (WEB) 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

1 Corinthians 1:20-24 (WEB)
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the lawyer of this world? Hasn’t God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

God's will is to give to the Son all those believing in Him

John 6:39-40 (Disciples' Literal New Testament)
39 And this is the will of the One having sent Me: that as to all that He has given to Me, I will not lose anything from it, but I will raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father: that everyone seeing the Son and believing in Him may have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day”.

That is God's Word.

Blessings

setst777 said:

Good morning.

You really have to read carefully what I wrote that you responded to in this message I am replying to. I never hinted, insinuated, or said, that works naturally flow from a believer. If you have been reading any of my messages and the Scriptures I quote you would not be making such an assertion.

What I do not believe, is that faith plus works saves anyone. IF your faith is truly in Jesus as your Lord, then you will listen to and follow Him into a holy life of righteousness and love, just as all the Scriptures instruct admonish us who believe.

Some people do not understand what it really means to believe in Jesus, and so they think they have to earn God's favor by their works. That is not the faith of Scripture. There is no faith plus works taught in Scripture; rather, the Scriptures oppose such a view as a false gospel.

Blessings.

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I believe most are confused on the topic of salvation today because they do not understand that being saved by God's grace through faith is the 1st work of God done in our life involving our salvation, and that Sanctification (Living Holy by the Spirit) is the 2nd work of God done in our lives as a part of the salvation process.

Yes, it is true. Believers are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace (i.e. Jesus Christ). It is why a person who comes to Jesus for the first time can have an assurance of salvation (Without doing any kind of work). Initial and ultimate salvation is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are not ultimately saved by works of righteousness we have done alone without God's mercy (Titus 3:5). For even if a believer were to stumble into sin, do they get clean by doing another work? No. They get clean by confessing their sins to Jesus (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) and they ask Jesus to help them to overcome their sin (or to forsake it) (Matthew 26:41) (Romans 13:14) (John 15:5). The gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. The gospel is included in being saved by God's grace. The gospel is defined as: believing that Christ died for our sins, he was buried, and he was risen three days later on our behalf for salvation. But there is a call of the gospel that you do not appear to be aware of mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.

Think of it like a phone that rings that has the words “gospel” written on that phone.

The phone rings.



You pick up the phone:



Now imagine that you hear a voice on the other line on the phone telling you this.... “God has chosen to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit, and a belief of the truth.” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).



13 “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel,...” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

Sanctification is in context to the Holy Spirit working in us to help us to live a holy life. This is clearly the context if you were to look at the verses proceeding it and after it (See 2 Thessalonians 2:12, and 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17). So while the gospel is not holy living, it does call us to abide in the Spirit and to walk in the Spirit. For Titus 2:11-12 tells us that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. Hebrews 12:14 basically says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.

So make no mistake, Scripture is also abundantly clear in that it teaches we are saved by "works of faith" after we are saved by God's grace, too.

1. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
   
   
2. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
   
   
3. A person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
4. Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God, and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).
   
   
5. Those who have done good, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, shall come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).
   
   
6. We have to continue in His goodness, otherwise we can be cut off [just like the Jews were cut off] (Romans 11:21-22).
   
   
7. Helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to inheriting the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and not helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to going away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46).
   
   
8. Whoever does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).
   
   
9. Whoever does what Jesus says is likened unto a wise man who built his house upon the rock, and when a storm came, it did not fall, (Matthew 7:24-25), but the person who does not do what Jesus says is likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).
   
   
10. Abiding in Jesus will bear much fruit, but if a person does not abide in Jesus [thereby being unfruitful], they are cast out [or cut off] like a branch to be burned in the fire (John 15:5-6). John the baptist said, “Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance,” (Luke 3:8), and then he said, “the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Luke 3:9).
    
    
11. If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing (1 Peter 4:18-19).
    
    
12. Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) (NKJV).