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This comment is a glaring example of Christian unbelief -- rejecting the plain meaning and truth of Scripture and denying the power thereof. To add insult to injury, it is being claimed that the Scriptures have been "taken out of context". That is really pathetic. To reiterate:Actually, it is folks like you who make it conditional by taking verses like this out of context and slapping them together like its some sort of exegesis.
This comment is a glaring example of Christian unbelief -- rejecting the plain meaning and truth of Scripture and denying the power thereof. To add insult to injury, it is being claimed that the Scriptures have been "taken out of context". That is really pathetic. To reiterate:
1. Does God want everyone to be saved? Yes
2. Does God have conditions in order to be saved? Yes
3. What are the conditions for salvation? Repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21)
4. Will all obey the Gospel and meet the conditions? No
5. Will only some be saved? Yes
Just to show that there's no straw man, here was a question I asked and your response.
Of course.[b/] Everyone has to decide whether to believe something or not. Belief has to come out of ignorance or disbelief. With GOD, we are saved by faith. Heb 11:1 (NIV) says: "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."
Here you are saying that someone CAN willfully believe something that they think is untrue.
So where is the straw man?
I think you have misrepresented the premise, maybe innocently maybe not. Can you highlight the specific words that suggest a person can willfully believe something that is untrue, from the quote ?
Of course. Everyone has to decide whether to believe something or not. Belief has to come out of ignorance or disbelief. With GOD, we are saved by faith. Heb 11:1 (NIV) says: "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."
So your premise is that man must save himself?This comment is a glaring example of Christian unbelief -- rejecting the plain meaning and truth of Scripture and denying the power thereof. To add insult to injury, it is being claimed that the Scriptures have been "taken out of context". That is really pathetic. To reiterate:
1. Does God want everyone to be saved? Yes
2. Does God have conditions in order to be saved? Yes
3. What are the conditions for salvation? Repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21)
4. Will all obey the Gospel and meet the conditions? No
5. Will only some be saved? Yes
Sinners must respond to the Gospel. But salvation is supernatural, and salvation is strictly a work of God.So your premise is that man must save himself?
That's a good way to twist things. You could say the same about sin entering into the world, or Satan becoming the arch-enemy of God and man.If God wants everyone saved then He is a failure isn't He?
That is why God has given the Gospel and that is why the Holy Spirit convicts sinners. THE GOSPEL IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION.If the conditions you describe are up to man to meet then how is he able to meet them seeing he is dead in trespasses and sin?
That is none of our business. That is strictly God's business.What is it that makes the difference between the sinner who is saved and the sinner who isn't? Why do some believe and other don't?
That is the redemptive finished work of Christ. No one is saved automatically.God's conditions for the salvation of sinner were that sin be put away by a fit sacrifice and that righteousness be brought in by a perfect man. Those conditions were met by Christ alone.
Then why does God COMMAND repentance, and COMMAND obedience to the Gospel? Why would He not simply save everyone without any conditions, since God is no respecter of persons?Faith and repentance are both described in the Scriptures as gifts from God never conditions to be met by man.
If so, this quote puts the decision to believe squarely with ones will ("Everyone has to decide whether to believe something or not."). This would mean that if you thought that the gospel was false, by your own will you could just "decide" to believe it is true. And, of course, decide to believe it's false later.
This isn't a good representation of the possible implications of the process involved in a change of belief. For instance let us start with position 1 and position 2.
Position 1 -> Investigation of position 2 -> belief in position 2 and rejection of position 1.
It's a choice to investigate position 2 and then also a choice to accept that the data supports position 2 over position 1, and hence change belief. Do you accept this model ?
I'm confident this is what Brandonspapa imlied, and not the parody you've presented.
Sorry but that doesn't compute. If man must do something in order to be saved he saves himself. There is no way around it according to your premise.Sinners must respond to the Gospel. But salvation is supernatural, and salvation is strictly a work of God.
Not a twist at all it is a simple logical conclusion. If God wants what He cannot have and cannot fulfill His desire He is just like a man and is an utter failure. Again there is no way around such a conclusion.That's a good way to twist things. You could say the same about sin entering into the world, or Satan becoming the arch-enemy of God and man.
True but you leave out an important part. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation because it is the Spirit who calls and gives life and faith through the Gospel. It has nothing to do with the one preaching the Gospel or how he presents it. Again read 1Cor. 1 and 2 very carefully. Engage your mind when you do.That is why God has given the Gospel and that is why the Holy Spirit convicts sinners. THE GOSPEL IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION.
That is no answer. It is a legitimate question that you cannot answer if your premise is correct. Actually you can answer it but it destroys your premise if you do.That is none of our business. That is strictly God's business.
So then man must apply the finished work of Christ to himself when he believes? Again that is man saving himself. Perhaps you should study 2Tim 1:9-10 deeply.That is the redemptive finished work of Christ. No one is saved automatically.
Because it is only reasonable. Unbelief is insanity. God commands all men everywhere to repent and believe because it is the only proper way man should act. But God's command of obedience to the Gospel in no way implies ability to be obedient. When the King commands you disobey at your own peril. That is exactly what Adam did. I am amazed at the thought that we, who have had sin permeate our being from the day we were born think that we can do what Adam could not. He was created in the image of God as a brilliant man and given dominion over all of God's creation yet he could not sustain. How in the world could a man who is sin in every fiber of his being?Then why does God COMMAND repentance, and COMMAND obedience to the Gospel?
God being no respecter of persons doesn't mean that He views all men alike it means that He doesn't take into account riches, station, or intelligence. Actually read the context of the places where that is given in the Scriptures. To apply those words in the way you do is to rip the meaning from them according to their context. It is to apply your presupposition over them and read your meaning into them.Why would He not simply save everyone without any conditions, since God is no respecter of persons?
Have had this discussion with many over the years. It is amazing how man likes to put his own spin on every word of God in scripture.... God being no respecter of persons doesn't mean that He views all men alike it means that He doesn't take into account riches, station, or intelligence. Actually read the context of the places where that is given in the Scriptures. To apply those words in the way you do is to rip the meaning from them according to their context. It is to apply your presupposition over them and read your meaning into them...
Okay, let's go with that for a moment. The implication is that all one needs to believe the gospel that they once rejected is more investigation. Is that your position?
Yahweh said that anyone who truly seeks Him, will find Him; so yes if a person receives the Gospel message ( correctly investigates and applies the tenets of repentance and submission ) then they will believe.
As per the parable of the sower this investigation must include understanding to be successful, as in any
investigation.
Mat 13:23 KJV But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
What do you suggest ?
It's interesting that you brought up the soils.
Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Matthew 13:8 - ESVBible.org
Who made the soil good, the soil itself, or some outside force?
I think you will need to address my points, before moving on. If you wish to preach a doctrine go ahead, but indulge the converstaion, as well.
Do you agree that the Gospel must be understood to be investigated properly ?
We can apply questions to questions, if you like.
No, I don't agree.
I answered yours.
Ok firstly I'll ask for clarification, considering Jesus words.
Mat 13:18-19 KJV Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. (19) When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Mat 13:23 KJV But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Now to answer your question. Jesus said that the person who receives the Gospel into good ground is he that understands it. ie. understanding implies good ground which is analogous to the humble and receptive condition of the seeker.
What do you suggest the good soil implies, and why ?
You asked if the Gospel needed to be understood to be investigated. Given the nature of your question, I have to assume that's your view (unless it was a totally random question). Earlier you said
"...if a person receives the Gospel message ( correctly investigates and applies the tenets of repentance and submission ) then they will believe."
So, as I'm trying to understand your view, I need clarification. Which comes first, understanding the Gospel, or investigating the Gospel?
You didn't address my questions. I'm ok if you ask another question in the same post as you address/answer mine.
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