He used death?

[Discipleship]

I don't know much about theistic evolution, but it has been explained to me that what it basically believes is that God used the process of evolution in creating the universe.
I would definitely be interested in learning more about this view so if anone has some resources you could provide me with, I would be most appreciative.
That being said, I keep reading on some threads how science contradicts YEC or how they simply can't be harmonized. Let me state that is simply not true. I've yet to hear anything that can't be harmonized. At our church we had a series that lasted from around the beginning of June all the way through the middle of September where the sole focus each and every week was talking about creation and how YEC must be the truth from a completely scientific perspective. I would love to share some thoughts with whoever might be interested, but I would appreciate it if people would stop saying these two can't coexist because they most certainly can.

Now to my question.... If God used evolution wouldn't that mean that God would have used death in creating the universe and forming it?
It seems to me that throughout the first 3 chapters of Genesis death is viewed as something terrible and when Eve was tempted she was told by satan himself that she would not die if she ate the fruit. When she did eat the fruit, however, it almost seems that the punishment for them sinning was death and would make it seem that death is a bad thing and that it was not desireable by God.
Any thoughts on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

 

[The Lady Kate]

Now to my question.... If God used evolution wouldn't that mean that God would have used death in creating the universe and forming it?

Death was a part of the process, yes. Something God knew was going to happen, and thus worked into His plan.

It seems to me that throughout the first 3 chapters of Genesis death is viewed as something terrible and when Eve was tempted she was told by satan himself that she would not die if she ate the fruit. When she did eat the fruit, however, it almost seems that the punishment for them sinning was death and would make it seem that death is a bad thing and that it was not desireable by God.
Any thoughts on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

Just a thought... I don't see anything wrong with God using death as a part of the process to create the universe, seeing as how He also used death (one death, anyway) as part of his plan to redeem it.

 

[artybloke]

I've yet to hear anything that can't be harmonized.

That's true enough. There were quite a few German Christians in the 2nd world war able to harmonise the Gospel of Christ Jesus with Nazism...

 

[Discipleship]

That's true enough. There were quite a few German Christians in the 2nd world war able to harmonise the Gospel of Christ Jesus with Nazism...

Thanks for the mature post. I think what you have said here pretty much speaks for itself so I don't really feel the need to say anything more about it.

 

[The Lady Kate]

Let me state that is simply not true. I've yet to hear anything that can't be harmonized. At our church we had a series that lasted from around the beginning of June all the way through the middle of September where the sole focus each and every week was talking about creation and how YEC must be the truth from a completely scientific perspective.

I shudder to think at what must have been said...

 

[Discipleship]

I shudder to think at what must have been said...

If you're not going to help me with my inquiry than I would ask you to refrain from posting here. Thank you.

 

[immortalavefenix]

That's true enough. There were quite a few German Christians in the 2nd world war able to harmonise the Gospel of Christ Jesus with Nazism...

Thanks for the mature post. I think what you have said here pretty much speaks for itself so I don't really feel the need to say anything more about it.

Agreed.

 

[The Lady Kate]

If you're not going to help me with my inquiry than I would ask you to refrain from posting here. Thank you.

I already did. Didn't you notice?

 

[DaveS]

Well.. describing theistic evolution (TE).

There really is not much to it! Simply take evolution and say God caused it. I personally am an old earth creatonist/theistic evolutionist. This teaches that God used the six day creation story (which is in harmony with evolution BTW) but actually over a much longer period of time - the days actually refer to ages. This view, interestingly is in harmony with not just evolution but also big bang, Earth formation, sun formation etc. etc. basically all the modern scientific theories and laws.

Hope that helps!

Dave

P.S - In the garden of Eden, whether it be metaphorical or not I think Eve was actually referring to spiritual death. Another idea I have been toying with is that the breath of life is actually being given a soul different from animals, being set apart rather than being created right there and then.

 

[Discipleship]

Well.. describing theistic evolution (TE).

There really is not much to it! Simply take evolution and say God caused it. I personally am an old earth creatonist/theistic evolutionist. This teaches that God used the six day creation story (which is in harmony with evolution BTW) but actually over a much longer period of time - the days actually refer to ages. This view, interestingly is in harmony with not just evolution but also big bang, Earth formation, sun formation etc. etc. basically all the modern scientific theories and laws.

Hope that helps!

Dave

P.S - In the garden of Eden, whether it be metaphorical or not I think Eve was actually referring to spiritual death. Another idea I have been toying with is that the breath of life is actually being given a soul different from animals, being set apart rather than being created right there and then.

Thanks for your help! I think I am able to see where you are coming from here, although I don't necessarily agree. I think this topic is one of the most fascinating!
I am starting to think that it doesn't really matter whether or not God used a literal six day creation or whether He used evolution. I think the larger picture we gain from that portion of Genesis is that God is our Creator, among other things, and that He loves us freely.

 

[The Lady Kate]

I am starting to think that it doesn't really matter whether or not God used a literal six day creation or whether He used evolution. I think the larger picture we gain from that portion of Genesis is that God is our Creator, among other things, and that He loves us freely.

No argument there... as a Biblical/salvation issue, it hardly matters.

 

[DaveS]

Thanks for your help! I think I am able to see where you are coming from here, although I don't necessarily agree. I think this topic is one of the most fascinating!
I am starting to think that it doesn't really matter whether or not God used a literal six day creation or whether He used evolution. I think the larger picture we gain from that portion of Genesis is that God is our Creator, among other things, and that He loves us freely

Nope, it's whats best for the person really. TE for me brings me closest to God, for others it is YEC.

 

[shernren]

Well Discipleship, I would point you to TalkOrigins: specifically http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html to undo whatever your church has done over the past few months. Personally I would say that the most important thing is don't let your view of origins derail your faith. When I became a theistic evolutionist it took me a long time to find my footing and make sure I wasn't going to go all the way to become an atheistic evolutionist. but I must also say that it was worth it for me. However I'm one of those scientifically inclined people and so that's why it was better for me to be a TE. It depends, really. I wouldn't teach TE under my church's name, for example, although I wouldn't teach creationism either.

To your specific question: animal death has no moral value. It is not wrong for animals to die. As for the "death" that Adam and Eve faced by eating the fruit I believe that it has to be looked at from the perspective of the whole person and not just the spirit and not just the body. Mankind lost contact with God and God is the only eternal being man has ever known, so when mankind lost contact with God he also lost contact with eternity. That brings fear and fear brings misery and voila! the Fall.

 

[CaptainMercy]

Death was a part of the process, yes. Something God knew was going to happen, and thus worked into His plan.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

If death was already part of the process, then why did God warn man of its consequences and then make such a statement as shown Above?

Just a thought... I don't see anything wrong with God using death as a part of the process to create the universe, seeing as how He also used death (one death, anyway) as part of his plan to redeem it.

It is true that by second man Adam's death (according to Paul's use of the term) we are passed from death to life. However, there still is lack of scriptural proof that death reigned in our bodies before the fall. It seems that the contrary is shown. Again look at Gen 4:22 and see that the tree of life was not the forbidden fruit. If man was to eat of this fruit according what is shown there, then he would have lived forever in a sinful state. God sent His Son to provide us with a way to live forever, but not in a sinful state.

 

[DaveS]

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

If death was already part of the process, then why did God warn man of its consequences and then make such a statement as shown Above?

Which is why I take Adam and Eve metaphorically rather than literally.

Adam and Eve were Gods way of saying that we have our limits - and also a warning.

I think it quite possible that there was an Adam and Eve.. anyway, the tree of knowledge was God saying, don't play God. Now the tee of life is a way to tell us not to try to be God - that only bad will come of it, an eternal seperation from God. It is a message of warning to us.

 

[The Lady Kate]

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Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

If death was already part of the process, then why did God warn man of its consequences and then make such a statement as shown Above?

Because the alternative is that God didn't know that the Fall was going to happen, and the introduction of death into His creation was not something He expected.

Do you want to go that route?

It is true that by second man Adam's death (according to Paul's use of the term) we are passed from death to life. However, there still is lack of scriptural proof that death reigned in our bodies before the fall. It seems that the contrary is shown. Again look at Gen 4:22 and see that the tree of life was not the forbidden fruit. If man was to eat of this fruit according what is shown there, then he would have lived forever in a sinful state. God sent His Son to provide us with a way to live forever, but not in a sinful state.

So perhaps the evolutionary process began at the Fall?