You need to expand your horizons. Try reading the works of N.T.Wright, Scott Hahn, Gary DeMar and Dallas Willard--for starters. Serious eschatology is more than just bumper stickers and cheap novels.
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He Shall Subdue Three kings
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You need to expand your horizons. Try reading the works of N.T.Wright, Scott Hahn, Gary DeMar and Dallas Willard--for starters. Serious eschatology is more than just bumper stickers and cheap novels.
Where is it stated in scripture, the three subdued kingdoms are to the uttermost north of Israel. I believe we are discussing the kingdoms mention in Daniel, or have I missed something. Though I agree this would be Russia and that they are one of the kingdoms. I can't find where you have referrenced this to the subdued kingdoms themselves. Peace, but not yet.
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My horizons are just fine, thank you very much.
I don't need your patronizing attitude and you can keep your authors, I don't buy your position on escatology to begin with since it is not bibilical.
Have a nice day.
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Brian45
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preterism is crap , and for those who want to check out the stupidity they preach , check out their site :
http://server3.ikonboard.com/Cropper/ikonboard.cgi
Many of them you already know .
http://server3.ikonboard.com/Cropper/ikonboard.cgi
Many of them you already know .
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Maranatha,
I may have to do this in installments as I do not have time to spend all day at one time to explain my position. But check back as I may not have fully stated my explanation. Okay...
Ezek. 38 gives the identity of the lineage of the peoples who make up the intitial power base of the kingdom. Two are extremely clear and the third takes more investigation to reveal the identity. Verses 2 & 3 state that "Gog, is a Magogite and rules over 3 nations Rosh, Meshech and Tubal which is consistent with Dan 7:8.
But unlike Magog, Meshech, and Tubal the name "Rosh" is nowhere in the table of nations. It is established that the antichrist's empire will be composed entirely of peoples whose lineage are traced back to that table of nations. But there is a solution to the "Rosh" dilemma, for there is a better rendering of the Hebrew given in the KJV that translates Ezek:38:2 as "Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the CHIEF PRINCE of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him" (CAPS added).
Some Jewish Talmudic scholars give similar translations of the Hebrew. These renderings do not take Rosh to be country (which explains why it is not in the table of nations), but rather a title of LEADERSHIP. The Hebrew term behind Rosh is often translated "head" or "chief". The idea then is that Gog is the national leader of Magog. But Gog is also the international leader of Meshech and Tubal, thereby making him the ruler of the 3 nations.
Josephus, the great Jewish historian, identifies the Magogites as Scythians who brancehd eastward and westward from the region NORTH of the black sea. This is in agreement with the writings of the Jewish Talmud which identifies Magog as the Goths, a group of nomadic tribes who destroyed the Scythians and settled in the Scythian territory. The Jewish Talmud also comments: "considering that the Goths were a Germanic people, the identification of Magog's decendents as the Goths is in accord with the Targum Yonasan to Gen. 10:2." Therefore, one may rightly conclude that the Germanic line as known today is descended from Magog.
It is very plausible that Gog will come from the Germanic line of Magog and there is directly linkage to the ancestry of Rome. (I won't go into that for that is not the topic of the thread.) But it is much less clear where the exact geographical location of the Magogites are at today. Much of the Magogite ancestry is located in modern day Germany, but there are large numbers of Magogite decendents in eastern and western Europe as well as the former Soviet Union with the same ancestry.
I may have to do this in installments as I do not have time to spend all day at one time to explain my position. But check back as I may not have fully stated my explanation. Okay...
Ezek. 38 gives the identity of the lineage of the peoples who make up the intitial power base of the kingdom. Two are extremely clear and the third takes more investigation to reveal the identity. Verses 2 & 3 state that "Gog, is a Magogite and rules over 3 nations Rosh, Meshech and Tubal which is consistent with Dan 7:8.
But unlike Magog, Meshech, and Tubal the name "Rosh" is nowhere in the table of nations. It is established that the antichrist's empire will be composed entirely of peoples whose lineage are traced back to that table of nations. But there is a solution to the "Rosh" dilemma, for there is a better rendering of the Hebrew given in the KJV that translates Ezek:38:2 as "Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the CHIEF PRINCE of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him" (CAPS added).
Some Jewish Talmudic scholars give similar translations of the Hebrew. These renderings do not take Rosh to be country (which explains why it is not in the table of nations), but rather a title of LEADERSHIP. The Hebrew term behind Rosh is often translated "head" or "chief". The idea then is that Gog is the national leader of Magog. But Gog is also the international leader of Meshech and Tubal, thereby making him the ruler of the 3 nations.
Josephus, the great Jewish historian, identifies the Magogites as Scythians who brancehd eastward and westward from the region NORTH of the black sea. This is in agreement with the writings of the Jewish Talmud which identifies Magog as the Goths, a group of nomadic tribes who destroyed the Scythians and settled in the Scythian territory. The Jewish Talmud also comments: "considering that the Goths were a Germanic people, the identification of Magog's decendents as the Goths is in accord with the Targum Yonasan to Gen. 10:2." Therefore, one may rightly conclude that the Germanic line as known today is descended from Magog.
It is very plausible that Gog will come from the Germanic line of Magog and there is directly linkage to the ancestry of Rome. (I won't go into that for that is not the topic of the thread.) But it is much less clear where the exact geographical location of the Magogites are at today. Much of the Magogite ancestry is located in modern day Germany, but there are large numbers of Magogite decendents in eastern and western Europe as well as the former Soviet Union with the same ancestry.
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Installment #2
The identity of the other two nations, Meshech and Tubal are relatively simple. Jewish writings indicate that by the 8th century the descendents of these two nations were located in the western portions of the former Soviet Union, with Meshech representing Muscovy, now known as Moscow and Tubal known in the Assyrian monument as the Tibareni, a region probably in and about the modern Russian city of Tobolsk. Tobolsk is located in the former west-central Soveit Union, more than a 1000 miles east of Moscow. *
All information is credited to Robert Van Kampen, author of the comprehensive book called, "The Sign" (Sign Ministries have now merged with Sola Scriptura Ministries). Mr. Van Kampen is a proponent of the pre-wrath position in escatology.
As a side note, I also agree with the pre-wrath position as I find this positon to be the most biblically accurate in understanding of prophetic events as a whole. However, I do not agree with Mr. Van Kampen on who the Mystery of Bablyon is in his book. It is an excellent read, however, and I highly recommend his book for it is extremely well done.
The identity of the other two nations, Meshech and Tubal are relatively simple. Jewish writings indicate that by the 8th century the descendents of these two nations were located in the western portions of the former Soviet Union, with Meshech representing Muscovy, now known as Moscow and Tubal known in the Assyrian monument as the Tibareni, a region probably in and about the modern Russian city of Tobolsk. Tobolsk is located in the former west-central Soveit Union, more than a 1000 miles east of Moscow. *
All information is credited to Robert Van Kampen, author of the comprehensive book called, "The Sign" (Sign Ministries have now merged with Sola Scriptura Ministries). Mr. Van Kampen is a proponent of the pre-wrath position in escatology.
As a side note, I also agree with the pre-wrath position as I find this positon to be the most biblically accurate in understanding of prophetic events as a whole. However, I do not agree with Mr. Van Kampen on who the Mystery of Bablyon is in his book. It is an excellent read, however, and I highly recommend his book for it is extremely well done.
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We seem to agree somewhat that the names in Ezekiel 38 & 39 represent parts of Russia and maybe the Germans, and though I agree this represents one of the kingdoms spoken of in Daniels prophecy, I do not believe in represents all three. We seem to also agree that the subduing of the three kingdoms in Daniel has a correlation with the battle of Ezekiel 38 & 39. The outcome of this battle, I believe sets the conditions of the enforcement of a world government.
Daniel does not mention the geographic locations of the three kingdoms that are subdued. Since the theme of Daniels prophecy concerns the rise of the anti-christ and his world government. Subduing these kingdoms is paramount to his goals. With that in mind, I have considered the documentation of the UN which is, I believe, the predecessor of the government anti-christ will establish. The UN has divided the world into 10 regions. Comparing these regions with the conditions in the middle-east. I see three primary kingdoms involved. The subduing of these three kingdoms would change drastically the political environment that now exist in the world. Consider, in a battle the USA, Russia, and the Arab nations as the three kingdoms that are subdued. This scenario opens the political setting for a world leader to stand up.
This is why I believe that the nations of Russia and possibly Germany are just one of the kingdoms. In comparing Ezekiel 38 & 39 with Daniel, we can see another kingdom mentioned. The Arabs. Persia, which is modern day Iran and possibly Iraq, Libya and Ethiopia are mentioned also. There fight is with Israel. I believe the USA will aid Israel in this attack. From this information I believe we can conclude who these three kingdoms are.
Thanks for posting your thoughts, we seem to agree more than we disagree. GOD Bless. Peace, but not yet.
Daniel does not mention the geographic locations of the three kingdoms that are subdued. Since the theme of Daniels prophecy concerns the rise of the anti-christ and his world government. Subduing these kingdoms is paramount to his goals. With that in mind, I have considered the documentation of the UN which is, I believe, the predecessor of the government anti-christ will establish. The UN has divided the world into 10 regions. Comparing these regions with the conditions in the middle-east. I see three primary kingdoms involved. The subduing of these three kingdoms would change drastically the political environment that now exist in the world. Consider, in a battle the USA, Russia, and the Arab nations as the three kingdoms that are subdued. This scenario opens the political setting for a world leader to stand up.
This is why I believe that the nations of Russia and possibly Germany are just one of the kingdoms. In comparing Ezekiel 38 & 39 with Daniel, we can see another kingdom mentioned. The Arabs. Persia, which is modern day Iran and possibly Iraq, Libya and Ethiopia are mentioned also. There fight is with Israel. I believe the USA will aid Israel in this attack. From this information I believe we can conclude who these three kingdoms are.
Thanks for posting your thoughts, we seem to agree more than we disagree. GOD Bless. Peace, but not yet.
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It was a pleasant exchange, Maranatha and we agree on some points, but not all and that is heathly. Best wishes to you.
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TheBear
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Please adhear to forum rules, and specifically to what Erwin has outlined about this forum.
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