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What do you think? Seriously, where do you believe the failure is...
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I agree that we have to have our own house in order, and we have done that poorly. But unfortunately, that's not because we've been busy caring about the rest of the world.
You should start with Genesis.Please stop. You're wrong, and you have a lot of study ahead of you. As it is, all you're doing here is providing rhetoric, not supported claims.
When did the Evangelicals elect a pope? Is there now a doctrinal standard published by an Evangelical Holy See?Yes, and what He meant by that statement was "there is something you disciples need to do instead right now, but you'll have time to minister to the poor like you should in the very near future."
Bizarro-ville...... and I've woken up to find myself in "Bizarro-ville." I've never really expected to see fellow evangelical Christians excuse themselves from loving their neighbors of the world by quoting the Bible out of context and, thereby, creating interpretive loop-holes in order justify their excuses. No wonder we've had events like the Tulsa Race Massacre in the U.S.. Good grief !!!
I should start with Genesis? What is that supposed to mean in relation to what we're discussing here? It sounds to me like you're just throwing a comment out and hoping that it'll somehow stick.You should start with Genesis.
What?????????????????? This doesn't address what I said previously about understanding what Jesus meant by His statement regarding the poor.When did the Evangelicals elect a pope? Is there now a doctrinal standard published by an Evangelical Holy See?
Bizarro-ville...
Welcome to East of Eden.
As for Tulsa Race Massacre, every massacre in recorded history up to and including Rwanda,
It is what man does. .
Genesis 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
Worldly success, particularly in the political realm. "Separation of Church and State" was the original concept of a pastor who saw how politics corrupted the Church.What do you think? Seriously, where do you believe the failure is...
I can tell you where my failure is.What do you think? Seriously, where do you believe the failure is...
I do know some things.This is a response that is clearly not thought out on your part. You don't even know what you're saying. You do realize, don't you, that where the Tulsa Race Massacre was concerned, some of the same White folks who warmed the pews at church on Sunday were the ones out burning and murdering African-Americans in Tulsa back in 1921? ... you do realize this, right? If not, then don't misapply de-contextualized bible verses to events and people you clearly don't know anything about.
I do know some things.
1) it is a wicked world
2) Love will not save you. Most murders and other violent crimes are committed within "loving relationships."
Man lives in this bizarro world and lists wherever the wind blows. Whatever fashion takes his fancy, be it sex with anything that walks, crawls or gets in his way while he is forming up another mob to commit murder and mayhem, looting and burning along the way or whatever wicked schemes he can devise to entertain himself.
So, where is a man's salvation? Where does it make sense and where is the hope?
Jesus said, "Lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil for Thine is the power and glory forever."
Stop tilting windmills. Nothing has changed. Genesis was not thousands of years ago. Genesis is Now and nothing has changed or is going to change except by the will of God.
You believe the Christians at Tulsa should have known better or done better?
Well, do you know better or are you part of the mob forming up for the next time "Justice" goes on a spree?
Only by the grace of God are we saved.
I believe we need to try to understand that most of us will not be the evangelist we would like to be. Still, there is a commitment to the great commission that we should have kind of like being on call in that God will call us if He sees fit.I can tell you where my failure is.
This seems to follow the same theme as homosexuality. Why should they be condemned if they didn't have a choice in the way that they were made? Because of this, they try to make more sense of the Bible on topics of homosexuality as they try to with the "Love thy neighbor" or the "Great Commission" assuming this really means giving to the poor or spreading the Gospel.
For example, I gave money to a person that I thought was poor and then watched him drive off in a vehicle nicer than mine. I don't know if there's very many legitimate poor people where I from and if they are poor then its probably because of the Casino. So, would I be guilty of not having the opportunity? Should I be required to move to a 3rd world country to legitimately help out the poor? I suppose I can donate to charities but I lack faith in them too - long story.
As far as the "Great Commission" in the context of spreading the Gospel since many people believe this extends to all Christians and not just his disciples - Here's my question: why didn't God provide me with the ability to be eloquent and articulate in speech? I'd like to be like the extroverts, but I just wasn't made that way. Am I going to be provided with an Aaron like Moses? Like the homosexual, I didn't have much of a choice in the way that I was made or raised.
Another thing to think about when Jesus tasked this with his disciples is - he also gave them the ability to perform miracles of healing the sick and casting out demons. Shouldn't we also be given this ability?
Also, almost everyone around here are well educated and already know about Jesus. It's more of a matter of whether they want to follow him or not. If I preach the Gospel its like "casting my pearls to swine." Like helping the poor, should I then move to a 3rd world country to fulfil the commission and preach the Gospel?
So what does the Great Commission really mean for us? Someone mentioned "Proper Witnessing". I'm not as familiar with it so I'm taking it to mean just sharing ideas on the Bible and Christianity assuming that you have enough people who are interested. Would this be enough?
I think this may be why things end up with a lot of talk and no action. I believe its in the hearts of many Christians - its just the path of how to get there isn't really clear.
Why should they be condemned if they didn't have a choice
Worldly success, particularly in the political realm. "Separation of Church and State" was the original concept of a pastor who saw how politics corrupted the Church.
This is a total misquoting of what I've stated. Our #1 effort should be evangelism. It is not foot washing. I don't even think foot washing of unbelievers even appears in the chart. If you think evangelism is "Bizarro-ville", then saying "foot-washing"=showing love and compassion certainly ranks right up there with bizarre and twisted theology. Are you planning on opening a foot washing clinic?So, where in the New Testament, precisely, does it say to make sure to avoid ministering to those who are not Christian, or that they have to repent and jump through various political and/or spiritual hoops BEFORE they'll even be considered for the reception of acts of love and care ?????????????????????
I feel like my participation in this thread has had the same affect as having a cold bucket of water splashed on my head while sleeping ...
... and I've woken up to find myself in "Bizarro-ville." I've never really expected to see fellow evangelical Christians excuse themselves from loving their neighbors of the world by quoting the Bible out of context and, thereby, creating interpretive loop-holes in order justify their excuses. No wonder we've had events like the Tulsa Race Massacre in the U.S.. Good grief !!!
No, at this point, I'm no longer an evangelical. There's really no need for American sloganeering to "identify" ones self as a particular sort of Christian. No, you just need to learn to listen to others better and fully consider the good and the bad of what's being shared with you before opening your mouths. It's enough to simply be a "Mere Christian," existentially considered.
No. I think that whatever the shortcomings of the "He Gets Us" commercials are, I know that Jesus does "Get Us," and we can see that He does IF we stop treating the entire Bible as if it's one big book of Proverbs.
This is a total misquoting of what I've stated. Our #1 effort should be evangelism. It is not foot washing. I don't even think foot washing of unbelievers even appears in the chart. If you think evangelism is "Bizarro-ville", then saying "foot-washing"=showing love and compassion certainly ranks right up there with bizarre and twisted theology. Are you planning on opening a foot washing clinic?
The ad is correct in one sense. Jesus does gets us. That is precisely why He created the Lake of Fire. We are evil and rebellious beings. Jesus loves us-that is for sure and has demonstrated that love over and over and over again-until He just about has reached His fill. The problem is mankind doesn't love Jesus. You don't have to take my word for it but just go up to any unbeliever and ask them if they love Jesus. No amount of foot washing is going to change their response.
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we did in righteousness, but in accordance with His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
If you fail to tell people of Jesus, no amount of foot washing is going to solve their problem.
As far as Proverbs goes:
Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; Fools despise wisdom and instruction.
There must be, in the words of Roger Williams, a separation between Church and State, but "success" in the world for the Church has meant entanglement with government, and really pretty much all the modern ills suffered by the Church (when we understand from scripture that persecution for the sake of the gospel is not an "ill suffered by the Church").You think worldly success is the problem?
How does that track? I'm trying to understand...
The actual meaning of the statement "the poor you always have with you" is exactly as written. There is and have been poor Always. See that word "Always?" That is what Jesus meant... so, we were discussing the actual meaning of Jesus' statement, "...the poor you always have with you," but now, somehow, you've decided we should arbitrarily hopscotch over to the above without addressing the statement or your method of interpretation
Yes, and now I am considering Augustine.Y'know, there are a lot of books and other sources about Biblical Exegesis out on the market. I suggest you buy one and read it ...
There must be, in the words of Roger Williams, a separation between Church and State, but "success" in the world for the Church has meant entanglement with government, and really pretty much all the modern ills suffered by the Church (when we understand from scripture that persecution for the sake of the gospel is not an "ill suffered by the Church").
Roger Williams was a remarkable early American. He was on the second ship (after the Mayflower) bringing Puritans to America. He founded the first Baptist congregation in the Americas. He was also one of the first Abolitionists against slavery in America, just as slavery was getting started here. He was also a great friend to the Native Americans, evangelizing to them in their native languages while helping keep them from being exploited by other English settlers.
He founded the colony of Rhode Island explicitly as a state of complete religious freedom, including in his writings, "for the Musselman [Muslim] and the heathen [atheist]."
The reason he was so energetic about religious freedom was because he was a staunch Calvinist who believed in Election. For him, a person was either Elect or not Elect. If people were Elect they would respond willingly to the gospel. If they were non-Elect, they would never accept that gospel. So by his thinking, it was counter-productive to the government to entice or coerce people into becoming members...that would only pack the pews with people who didn't truly believe...and even put such people into leadership.
He therefore believed the Church should not have any sponsorship by the government. Further, as he looked at the history of government-supported religion in Europe, he counted nearly constant wars and atrocities, mostly Christian against Christian. Europe in his time had only recently emerged from the Thirty Years War and the English Civil War was fomenting. The English Civil War of state-religionists against Separatists (separation of Church and State) was soon to erupt.
Williams was one of those Separatists. He wrote the 1644 essay, "Bloudy Tenent of Persecution, for Cause of Conscience" outlining the evils perpetrated by the involvement of the Church in the business of government and vice versa. In fact, when Thomas Jefferson wrote about a "wall of separation between Church and State," Jefferson actually cribbed the line from Williams' work.
Williams made the point that Jesus always characterized the Church as being in tension with the world, not meaning the mountains, rivers, and forests, but man's kingdoms of the world.
Satan had offered Jesus control of the kingdoms of the world, but Jesus had resisted that temptation. Unfortunately, church leaders a few hundred years later fell into Satan's trap.
You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. --- James 4
Williams' legacy extended into the writing of the Constitution. His state, Rhode Island, continued his ideology by refusing to ratify the Constitution until the First Amendment provision for the separation of Church and State had first been written and ratified.
I see that you and I are going to have, at the moment, a big disagreement as to what Jesus meant in regard to his comment(s) about the poor.The actual meaning of the statement "the poor you always have with you" is exactly as written. There is and have been poor Always. See that word "Always?" That is what Jesus meant
There are many more modern fellow Christian brethren who can do better than Augustine ...Yes, and now I am considering Augustine.
God demands that we implement social Justice in society, and not just retributive justice.There seems to be a worship of "Love" and "Justice" as defined by the exegesis and lately by secularists.
Between you and me, we don't have to worry about what the mob or the Mob thinks. We have the Lord to delineate the directions and applications of justice. It's up to us to capture in our minds His complete program.Some of the most egregious crimes have been committed in the name of "Love"
Justice is often defined by the mob who has the most to gain by whatever mayhem can be incited in the name of "Justice."
Sure. You're admitting to the importance of good Biblical Exegesis where the concept of "God is Love" is to be understood. We can both read the entirety of the 1 letter of John and recognize the full stature of the meaning.Those are "attributes of God" And as such, worshipped.
"God is Love" is an egregious example.
Now, I wonder, are those "attributes" actually in the Bible or did Augustine introduce them from the Greeks?
I read the Bible, I read Augustine and there is an "addition" or redefinition in Augustine that is of some interest to me lately when I compare the "exegesis" of Augustine to the Bible
Sola Scriptura
As far as this "love is love" thing, Pastor Baucham clarifies this under no uncertain terms:
Through the efforts of all right thinking men
Mob
"Implement social justice"
Whoopi, Justice is off on another spree.
God demands this?
I don't see the concept or the words "social justice" in the Bible.
Also where in the Bible does God "demand?"
But that is the subject of another thread.
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