He Comes With Clouds

[it'sme]

2duchlow
I am interested in this about you, you believe in a non trinity understanding, are you part of a church that believes this, or is this on your own?

 

[Der Alte]

That is exactly why you take the bible as the final word.
There no trinity in the bible. That is a doctrine that is made up by man.
Jesus many time says he is God's Son. Jehovah , when Jesus was being baptized, said this is my Son who I have approved, and then at John 20:17[ . . . ]

So why do you keep posting this false information over and over when I have exposed it personally to you several times? Repeating false information that has been deliberately falsified by a group of anonymous men in WTBS does NOT make it true! If you want to use secular information, go to a library and read for yourself and see if you find something in a reputable source, quote it here in context. As for the Trinity NOT being in the Bible try these passages.

There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit.

[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[3] Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he [God] hath purchased with his own blood.

[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[21] Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.​

 

[Der Alte]

Eleven passages, from the list of 86, below, which reveal the Triunity of God. Each passage shows Father, Son, and Holy Spirit having a different relationship, effect, role, etc., with respect to believers.

For example, #2, Titus 3:4, believers are SAVED BY Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all three. We are SAVED BY, the kindness and love of God our Savior, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy, Ghost, shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savour, all three.. Also see, #10, 2 Thess 2:13, believers are SAVED BY Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all three.

(1.) 2 Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

(2.) Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of [1]regeneration, and renewing of [2]the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he [3] shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

(3.) Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

(4.) 1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to [1] the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of [2] the Spirit, [Repeated three times, cf. 2 Th 2.13, Ro 15:16] unto obedience and [3] sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: [Repeated twice, cf. Heb 9.14] Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

(5.) Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing, which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God,.

(6.) Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost,.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call,.

(7.) Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ, to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost,.

(8.) Rom 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse,, and he, that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him, shall the Gentiles trust.
13 Now the God of hope, fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost,.

(9.) Heb 9.14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit, offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!,

(10.) 2 Thess 2.13 But we ought always to thank God, for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning [1]God, chose you to be saved through [2] the sanctifying work of the Spirit, and through belief in the truth.
14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might [3] share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ,.

(11.) I Cor 12.3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.,
5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord.,
6 There are different kinds of working, but the same God, works all of them in all men.

The Gospels and Acts

Mat 1:18-22, Mat 3:9-11, Mat 3:16-17, Mat 4:1-4, Mat 10:19-23, Mat 12:28, Mat 28:19, Mark 12:35-37, Lk 1:15-17, Lk 1:30-35 *, Lk 1:67-69, Lk 2:25-32, Lk 4:12-13, Lk 10:21, Lk 12:8-10, Jn 1:32-34, Jn 3:31-35, Jn 14:15-17, Jn 14:25, Jn 15:26, Jn 16:7-10, Jn 16:13-15, Jn 20:16-22, Acts 1:4-5, Acts 1:7-8, Acts 2:32-33, Acts 2:38-39*, Acts 4:8-10, Acts 4:24-26, Act 4:29-31, Acts 5:30-32, Acts 7:51-56, Acts 8:14-17, Acts 9:15-20 Acts 10:38, Acts 11:15-17, Acts 11:23-24, Acts 15:7-11, Acts 16:6-10, Acts 20:22-24, Acts 28:23-25.

The Pauline writings

Rom 1:1-4, Rom 5:1-5, Rom 8:9-11, Rom 8:13-16, Rom 8:26-29, Rom 15:12-13*, Rom 15:16*, , Rom 14:15-17, Rom 15:16, Rom 15:18-19, Rom 15:30, I Cor 2:8-10, I Cor 2:14-16, I Cor 6:9-11, I Cor 6:14-19, I Cor 12:3-5*, 2 Cor 1:20-22, 2 Cor 3:3-4, 2 Cor 13:14*, Gal 3:1-5, Gal 4:4-6, Gal 5:21-25, Eph 2:17-18, Eph 3:14-17, Eph 4:4-6, Eph 4:30-32, Eph 5:18-20, Phil 3:3, I Thess 1:4-6, 2 Thess 2:13-14*, I Tim 3:15-16, Titus 3:4-6.*

The General Epistles

Heb 2:3-4; Heb 6:3-6; Heb 9:14*; Heb 10:29-31; I Pet 1:2; * I Pet 3:18; I Pet 4:14; I Jn 3:21-24; I Jn 4:13-14; I Jn 5:6-9; Jud 1:20-21*.

Revelation

Rev 14:12-13, Rev 22:17-18,​

 

[2ducklow]

2duchlow
I am interested in this about you, you believe in a non trinity understanding, are you part of a church that believes this, or is this on your own?

yes, my church believes this. as will all the churches pretty soon.

 

[it'sme]

yes, my church believes this. as will all the churches pretty soon.

Well that correct, they will have too.
I was wondering what, you thought of the time of the end, do you think we are in that now? What is your churches stand on that ?

 

[2ducklow]

Well that correct, they will have too.
I was wondering what, you thought of the time of the end, do you think we are in that now? What is your churches stand on that ?

We've already discussed many aspects of end time events.

 

[it'sme]

We've already discussed many aspects of end time events.

OK, just wondering.

 

[FredVB]

I have no desire to continue with anyone who keeps saying when I have valid points that I am putting them down or calling them an idiot. As Der Alter has said,
"Actually your post is "poisoning the well." You falsely accuse Fred of a logical fallacy for the purpose of trying to discredit everything else he says."

Der Alter has made good points on the scriptural support for the deity of Jesus and for belief out of the Bible for the trinity. I appreciate it, we should take them seriously.

I should respond to points from it'sme.

>1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.
Our translation 'a' God, ( because the bible says there are many God's).

>Orthodox Christianity is wrong on their stand that Jesus is Jehovah. The bible says there are many Gods and many Lords. So there is no problem, with calling Jesus God, but he is not Jehovah God. Satan is called the God of this system of things. Does that make Satan Jehovah also? So this term God can mean different things to different people. Jesus is one with Jehovah just like Jesus followers are one with him. It just means unity.

You say these things that Christ is another god and the Bible says there are many gods right before the next part of my message you respond to which quotes from Isaiah:

"Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. I am Yahweh, and there is none else, there is no God beside me"`

There are other gods mentioned in the Bible, but they are so from human recognition, God as we see does not acknowledge any other being as truly God. Satan is not approved to be a god, only acknowledged as such with human recognition. If Jesus made claim to being a god in addition to the one called "Father", he would have been ungodly as a deceiver and should not be believed. There is only one according to God, any others are not approved by him.

>But even if you don't accept that these verses he was 'with' God and it was 'through' him. This is odd language becasue how can you be with someone and still be that person? You have to go to the rest of the bible to get a clearer understanding. The bible even says they are one. But the bible also says we are are one with, with Jesus. It just means in unity, we are one.
You should at least believe what Jesus said. This is after he was resurrected and on his way to Jehovah.

In Colossians 1 v 16, right from in the Greek, "because by him were created all things" meaning Christ is Creator, and so he is God, who is the one Creator. Using "being reasonable" to differ from seeing this is not truly justified, he can be with the other person who is God, he would not be that person, but in the union with that other as one being, is God.

>Jesus had a prehuman existence. He was called Micheal in the bible.

Your view.

>Jesus was the word meaning he explained God to us, and Jehovah is the only true God Jesus is his Son.

This is an interpretation.

>(Psalm 83:18) That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

>This scripture does not include Jesus or the Holy spirit in this.

By your interpretation.

>"Philippians 2v5-6:
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus.
Who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery
to be equal with God. But made himself of no reputation,
taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the
likeness of men."
​

>This scripture means that Jesus didn't consider himself equal to God. He never was. The bible say he is the image of God that means exactly alike, But not the same person. Jesus was created but Jehovah wasn't.

It is your reinterpretation that scripture does not mean that. It actually does. As it says directly from the Greek, "Who in form of God subsisting" which clearly indicates that the Lord Jesus subsisted of the form of God. So it was not robbery to be equal with God. This is why Jews wanted to stone him, it was only for blasphemy, because he made himself equal with God by saying he and the Father were one, so no, it never meant the same thing as we being one, and again when he said "before Abraham was I am", identifying himself as Yahweh, who alone uses "I am" rightfully.

>This sacred secret is about Jesus, and who he is Jesus is God's Son.

The people you say wrongly believe in the trinity still understand that Jesus is the begotten Son of God. That is not a secret to them.

>This idea of the trinity is from pagan religions.

Der Alter made those excellent references that show that is not true. it'sme, you have not yet shown any three who are named from pagan beliefs that were considered to be one god.

>That is exactly why you take the bible as the final word.
There no trinity in the bible. That is a doctrine that is made up by man.
Jesus many time says he is God's Son. Jehovah , when Jesus was being baptized, said this is my Son who I have approved, and then at John 20:17

I do not know if this message was also for me, but as can be seen there are many supporting passages. It is not true that just because there is not a word found in the Bible, or anywhere, it does not exist. Many things it turns out are true according to the Bible without a word for anyone of them being found in the Bible. We agree, if it is your position in truth, to take the Bible as the final word.

 

[it'sme]

There are other gods mentioned in the Bible, but they are so from human recognition, God as we see does not acknowledge any other being as truly God. Satan is not approved to be a god, only acknowledged as such with human recognition. If Jesus made claim to being a god in addition to the one called "Father", he would have been ungodly as a deceiver and should not be believed. There is only one according to God, any others are not approved by him.

John 1: 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

John 1:18 (New International Version)

18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[a][b]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
Jesus was at his fathers side.




John 1:18 (New King James Version)

18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son,[a] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
Footnotes:

1. John 1:18 NU-Text reads only begotten God.

Psalms 85:8 There is none like you among the gods, O Jehovah,
Neither are there any works like yours.

1 Corinthins 8:. 5 For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods”and many “lords, ” 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.

Psalms 96: 5 For all the gods of the peoples arevalueless gods;
But as for Jehovah, he has made the very heavens.


John 10:34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “YOU are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, 36 do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son? 37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me. 38 But if I am doing them, even though YOU do not believe me, believe the works, in order that YOU may come to know and may continue knowing that the Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father


Mat. 18: 10 See to it that YOU men do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell YOU that their angels in heaven always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven.

Jerimiah 10:11 This is what YOU men will say to them: “The gods that did not make the very heavens and the earth are the ones who will perish from the earth and from under these heavens.

1 Corinthains 15: 23 But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

This scripture is saying when Jesus hand over the kingdom to his God and Father ( Jesus is in heaven at this time.) So even there Jesus has a God.

This fits with this scripture in John
John 20 :17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”

Here again Jesus is resurrected and on his way to Jehovah, and he still calls him his God.

2 Corinthians 4:3 If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.

This is talking about Satan, as the God of the system of things. But you notice he has blinded the minds of the unbelievers. That means Christendom as well, as other religions. Satan has most effectively blinded the minds , about who God is and who his Son is.



Fred ...there is no doubt about this, Satan got the early Chrsitains to take Jehovah God out of the bible and give it to Jesus. But Jesus never wanted it, and told us that. It makes sense that the major religions in the world , do not serve God. That is why the world is in such a mess.
Satan is the God of this world , but Jesus is going to take that away from him. Jesus is starting his rule in amongst his enemies for a time ( this is right now), then Satan will be put in prison.

Psalms 110: 2 The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, [saying:]
“Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”
3 Your people will offer themselves willingly on the day of your military force.

This is at Jesus second coming.

 

[2ducklow]

I have no desire to continue with anyone who keeps saying when I have valid points that I am putting them down or calling them an idiot. .

gee I wonder who he's talkin about?

 

[FredVB]

Hello it'sme. You wrote a number of passages, which I understand you think make your point we are debating, but I still see them supporting mine. Looking at this one:

>18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

The Son is in the very bosom of the Father, and this expression indicates the closest fellowship.

>Psalms 85:8 There is none like you among the gods, O Jehovah,
Neither are there any works like yours.

This necessarily is referring to useless idols, we certainly cannot, in light of the Bible, conclude from this there is a pantheon of gods. If Jesus was among the gods, he could have none of the importance assigned to him in the new testament, and would not be sanctioned by the Father.

>1 Corinthins 8:. 5 For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods”and many “lords, ” 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.

This also makes that case, the Christians' God, the God of the Bible, is the only true God, there are many "gods" and "lords" that are only so because of the place people give them in their lives, but none of which are true God. "God the Father" is clearly referring to the Father, and the Lord Jesus is given equal place, as in a number of places. Consider in Philippians 2 it reads
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Notice the greatest glory to be given to God in the Bible is to give this honor to Jesus. This is a clear reference to Isaiah 45 v 23 about Yahweh. Right after saying "There is no god other than me" he said this:

23 By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.

This makes sense if Jesus is God as the passage applies to in Isaiah, for in Colossians 2 it is said: 9For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form

By the way, where you put emphasis on the word "through", it is true, but specifically, in the original Greek it is "di" meaning "by".

>Psalms 96: 5 For all the gods of the peoples arevalueless gods;
But as for Jehovah, he has made the very heavens.

This clearly makes the same case, idols are the valueless gods. Jesus cannot be one of "all the gods".

>John 10:34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “YOU are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, 36 do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son? 37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me. 38 But if I am doing them, even though YOU do not believe me, believe the works, in order that YOU may come to know and may continue knowing that the Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father

Jesus here rightly indicts the Jews he is speaking to what their scriptures judged them of, placing men wrongfully as if they were gods, clearly those the word of God came against. If it is coming against these gods that are not the one God, it would be coming against Jesus if he were also another god. That is non sequitur the Bible is not speaking against Jesus, Jesus then is necessarily the one God.
This is the text preceding this read:

30"I and the Father are one." 31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."



These Jews only had just cause to attempt to stone Jesus for the case of blasphemy, which they understood to be the case as Jesus said he was one with the Father, clear in the context to refer to God, and they rightly understood it as a claim to Deity, as he had also done on other occasions, which was blasphemy if Jesus was not really so, but he was. I can only come to the conclusion, if these things are not true, and have to be re-read in a different sense, because there are so many such situations with passages from the Bible, that it would like a deception that we have to see our way around. I prefer to read the Bible directly and to take what it says at face value.

 

[it'sme]

The Son is in the very bosom of the Father, and this expression indicates the closest fellowship.

You wrote this. If you have fellowship with someone, it is not yourself.

 

[2ducklow]

You wrote this. If you have fellowship with someone, it is not yourself.

What is the JW interpretation of john 10.33? I know this verse is widely used to assert that Jesus is God. Is that the JW opinon as well?

john 10.33 The Jews answered him--Concerning a noble work, are we not stoning thee; but concerning profane speech,--and because, thou, being, a man, art making thyself, God. (Rotherham.)


Or is the JW belief similar to mine? My belief is that the Jews were leveling the false accusation that Jesus a man was making himself God, at him (Jesus).


and what do JW's belief is the blasphemy that Jesus was accused of? Making himself god? I see the verse as saying that he was going to be stoned for two reasons, blasphemy AND being a man attempting to make himself God? I see the blasphemy as being Jesus asserting that he was the messiah, the Christ. You?

 

[FredVB]

From it'sme:

>"The Son is in the very bosom of the Father, and this expression indicates the closest fellowship."
>You wrote this. If you have fellowship with someone, it is not yourself.

Yes, it is the closest fellowship between two persons. Are you still saying you cannot conceive of the difference I and Christians generally can make between what we mean be person and what we mean by being? Those words do not mean exactly the same thing, and there is still belief that one being is God, which from what you said does not seem the case, meaning if true that you are not monotheist.

 

[it'sme]

From it'sme:

>"The Son is in the very bosom of the Father, and this expression indicates the closest fellowship."
>You wrote this. If you have fellowship with someone, it is not yourself.

Yes, it is the closest fellowship between two persons. Are you still saying you cannot conceive of the difference I and Christians generally can make between what we mean be person and what we mean by being? Those words do not mean exactly the same thing, and there is still belief that one being is God, which from what you said does not seem the case, meaning if true that you are not monotheist.

The bible says that Jehovah alone is God. He was never created and was never the first born. He had no beginning. Jesus was the first creation of Jehovah's and it was through Jesus that all other creation happened. The Holy Spirit is not a person but Jehovah's active force that he uses to get things done. ( though the Holy Spirit is personalized in many places in the bible but other places show that the Holy Spirit is not a being.)

The idea of a trinity came from pagan origins, and is not in the bible.
When the bible uses the term son, we know what that is. That is why it is used in the bible. Jesus didn't get immortality untill be died on the earth and then was resurrected .Jehovah gave that to him.

 

[Der Alte]

[ . . . ]Jesus was the first creation of Jehovah's and it was through Jesus that all other creation happened.

There is not one verse in the entire Bible which says that Jesus was created.

The Holy Spirit is not a person but Jehovah's active force that he uses to get things done. ( though the Holy Spirit is personalized in many places in the bible but other places show that the Holy Spirit is not a being.)

There is not one verse in the entire Bible which shows that the Holy Spirit is NOT a being!

tThe idea of a trinity came from pagan origins, and is not in the bible.
[ . . . ]

You keep posting this blatantly false accusation about the Trinity being pagan although I have asked you repeatedly for evidence and you cannot provide any. You quoted something from Hislop's, "Too Babble On." which supposedly proved it, but instead of proving that, in your quote Hislop said the pagans copied and misrepresented "the Triune God." And you have repeatedly ignored how your own quote contradicts what you claim it says. If you are posting the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth you should be instantly able to answer any questions about your "quotes." Why are you afraid to answer this question?

 

[it'sme]

Mark 10:17 And as he was going out on his way, a certain man ran up and fell upon his knees before him and put the question to him: “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit everlasting life?” 18 Jesus said to him: “Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God.

John 17:3, RS: “[Jesus prayed to his Father:] This is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God [“who alone art truly God,” NE], and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” (Notice that Jesus referred not to himself but to his Father in heaven as “the only true God.”)
John 20:17, RS: “Jesus said to her [Mary Magdalene], ‘Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” (So to the resurrected Jesus, the Father was God, just as the Father was God to Mary Magdalene. Interestingly, not once in Scripture do we find the Father addressing the Son as “my God.”)

John 1:1, RS: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God [also KJ, JB, Dy, Kx, NAB].” NE reads “what God was, the Word was.” Mo says “the Logos was divine.” AT and Sd tell us “the Word was divine.” The interlinear rendering of ED is “a god was the Word.” NW reads “the Word was a god”; NTIV uses the same wording.

Col. 1:15-17, RS: “He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation . . . All things were created through him and for him. He is before all things.”
John 17:5, RS: “[In prayer Jesus said:] Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made.” (Also John 8:23)

Matthew 16:13 Now when he had come into the parts of Caes‧a‧re′a Phi‧lip′pi, Jesus went asking his disciples: “Who are men saying the Son of man is?” 14 They said: “Some say John the Baptist, others E‧li′jah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them: “YOU, though, who do YOU say I am?” 16 In answer Simon Peter said: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 In response Jesus said to him: “Happy you are, Simon son of Jo′nah, because flesh and blood did not reveal [it] to you, but my Father who is in the heavens did

Jesus, told us who he is. But some people today will put more trust into their church says than what Jesus says.

 

[2ducklow]

Jesus, told us who he is. But some people today will put more trust into their church says than what Jesus says.

you poisoned the well with this remark. In fact one of the only two comments you made was to poison the well. So that means your main proof is an ad hominum. Is frustration setting in? it can cause a poisoning of the well. but then maybe everybody's gangin up on ya. There's 2 sides to every coin.

 

[it'sme]

you poisoned the well with this remark. In fact one of the only two comments you made was to poison the well. So that means your main proof is an ad hominum. Is frustration setting in? it can cause a poisoning of the well. but then maybe everybody's gangin up on ya. There's 2 sides to every coin.

2ducklow
Actually this has been said to me many times. But I understand where peole are coming from on this. It is in old established religions that , many think , that the truth is there. Also to many JW's are just some new cult or a little fanatical religion to many. So I get it. Jesus coming the way he did even though the Jews were expecting him, would also have been a cult to the main stream Jewish religion. Since Jesus tore a strip, off the Jewish religious leaders, and eventually cast the Jewish nation off altogether. He used much stronger language than I ever did.
As for ganging up on me , that is expected, actually if you didn't I that it would not be a good sign. But..... all I wanted to do was give some here a chance to look at what the bible really says. Maybe some one might be interested enough , to look in to it some more.
The bible says the unbelievers are blinded. My question to that is if these ones had a chance to hear what the bible actually says ( truth), would they then change, would they see it or not? Now the bible says some will but most won't. Jesus when on the earth, came across the same thing, then they killed him.
Even if you don't believe we have the truth, there still is a truth. Why isn't everyone united, in that one idea, or on that path? Is it just that people are blinded or do they really not want truth, but instead really want their own thing. And it's OK to have a belief but don't let God get in the way.
In the bible it always was one way, and if these ones got off the path they were corrected by Jehovah's prophets.
I find this an interesting question. People fight just as hard for something that is wrong. Interesting!

 

[2ducklow]

2ducklow
Actually this has been said to me many times. But I understand where peole are coming from on this. It is in old established religions that , many think , that the truth is there.

Also to many JW's are just some new cult or a little fanatical religion to many. So I get it. Jesus coming the way he did even though the Jews were expecting him, would also have been a cult to the main stream Jewish religion. Since Jesus tore a strip, off the Jewish religious leaders, and eventually cast the Jewish nation off altogether. He used much stronger language than I ever did.

some thing JW's are a cult some thought Jesus and his followers were a cult, ergo JW is right? Every cult could say that.

As for ganging up on me , that is expected, actually if you didn't I that it would not be a good sign.

I've been ganged up on before, so that means I'm right. anyone who is ganged up on is right right?

But..... all I wanted to do was give some here a chance to look at what the bible really says. Maybe some one might be interested enough , to look in to it some more.

well so did I, so if one only wants to give someone a chance to look at what they consider what the bible really says, they are right?

[

The bible says the unbelievers are blinded. My question to that is if these ones had a chance to hear what the bible actually says ( truth), would they then change, would they see it or not? Now the bible says some will but most won't. Jesus when on the earth, came across the same thing, then they killed him.

I gave you a chance to hear what the bible actually says (truth) and you didn't change.

Even if you don't believe we have the truth, there still is a truth.

even if you don't believe we still have the truth, there is still truth. the reason you think that you have the truth and no one else does is because you believe your interrpetations of scriptures are the only possible ones. you believe the only possible interpretaion of 'the dead are dead and know nothing" is that there is no after life. trinitarians take john 1.14 'the word became flesh' and consider that there is no other possible interpretation other than that god incarnated himself as the word, thus you both assume only you have the t ruth and everyone else ignores the truth because you both firmly believe your interpretations are the only possible ones.

Why isn't everyone united, in that one idea, or on that path? Is it just that people are blinded or do they really not want truth, but instead really want their own thing. And it's OK to have a belief but don't let God get in the way.

I don't beleive anyone is united, including JW's. that's why they continually have to disfellowship people.

In the bible it always was one way, and if these ones got off the path they were corrected by Jehovah's prophets.
I find this an interesting question. People fight just as hard for something that is wrong. Interesting!

And you belief that all JW's are united and all believe the same things?

Others could say the same things about JWism that you say about other christians, and do.