He Comes With Clouds

[goodnewsinc]

He Comes With Clouds


Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Daniel 4:13 I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;

2 Chronicles 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Exodus 19:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.

Ezekiel 34:12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

God has come with the clouds of Heaven … ALREADY! Every eye shall see Him! If you cannot see Him, it is because you are not an eye in the body of Christ. The eyes of God are angelic “holy spirits”. Maybe you are a toe or an elbow.

1 Corinthians 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

Psalm 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

Clouds arise from the waters of the earth and these allegoric waters are men.

Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Warmth from the Sun-Son causes these waters to rise as vapors (spirits) to form clouds.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

When Jesus rose up to Heaven, He ascended up in his parabolic cloud.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

This next text shows you the symbol of cloud, spirit, and angel are one and the same.

Revelation 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

So when God “comes with clouds” you understand what He is saying. He is saying “I am bringing your brethren the holy Watchers with me” to witness and also to participate in your struggle with the tare around you.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Psalm 91:3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. 4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. 11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. 12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone. 13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.

It is these angelic Watcher-Witnesses who asked God what they should do about the tares choking the wheat. But I will remind you of Father’s response to them.


Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

As you know Father as God-Creator is omnipresent, everywhere at once. He is living your life as “you” and sharing His sensory perceptions with each spirit-cell-child as He “dwells in them and walks in them”. His reward is with Him, that is He give light and manna to those children who have mastered what He previously gave them. Those who have not learned previous lessons and dallied in the intrigues of demonic manipulation will be moved to reject God’s words by their controlling devils (tares).

Isaiah 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. 11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

Isaiah 41:17 When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the LORD will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them. 18 I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water. 19 I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tah tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together: 20 That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.

Another way God manages growth of wheat is to regulate the Sun-Sonshine and Reign-rain-rein. The light and warmth of the Son-sun causes germination and growth. Jesus is the “bridegroom” here.

Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. 4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, 5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.

Revelation 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

The rain of importance is what the clouds of Heaven do. When they speak, they sprinkle showers of blessing upon those with ears to hear.

Revelation 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

Hosea 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

Psalm 72:6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.

Zechariah 10:1 Ask ye of the LORD rain in the time of the latter rain; so the LORD shall make bright clouds, and give them showers of rain, to every one grass in the field.

Every human being has a “crown of life”, angelic guardians who can and do speak to our minds. But we have to learn to obey “our good angels” who are “our good consciences” rather than the tares (crown of thorns) who fight them. Their words are “showers” that can cause the hearers to grow spiritually.

2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.


John,
GOOD NEWS, Inc.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

Downing, B. H., The Bible and Flying Saucers, 1968

Von Daniken, E., Chariots of the Gods, 1968

Twichell, D. E., The UFO-Jesus Connection, 2001

Cooke, P., The Greatest Deception: The Bible UFO Connection, 2004

YouTube - Ancient UFO Paintings

 

[467AIR]

Comes with CloudS

Some people get bent all out of shape when we tell them that Jesus is not returning riding upon a rain cloud. Let me assure you - the prophecies of the Bible are to be believed! But let us be careful that we do not make them mean something which God did not intend. The mistake that many make is to say that all those prophecies are to be fulfilled in a very physical and natural sense, when the New Testament interpretations indicate that the prophecies do indeed have a literal fulfillment but with a spiritual interpretation. We need to understand that much of the language of the Bible is couched in symbolism, metaphors and allegories.

Another proof that the "clouds" with which Christ comes are in reality the sons of God IN THEIR GLORY is couched in the terminology of the scriptures on this subject. Note that in most places the passages in question speak of Christ coming "WITH CLOUDS." There is only one other group or plurality of objects of which it is stated that Christ comes "with" them, and that is - the SAINTS! The Bible never says that Jesus returns "to" the clouds or "out of" the clouds. It is very careful to tell us that lie comes "with" clouds. And it also tells us that tie comes "with" His saints. "To the end He may establish your hearts ... at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ W-I-T-H ALL HIS SAINTS" (I Thes. 3:13). Jude says, "And Enoch also ... prophesied ... saying, Behold, the Lord cometh W-I-T-H TEN THOUSANDS OF SAINTS" (Jude 14). The Amplified is helpful, when it reads, "Behold,the Lord comes W-I-T-H MYRIADS OF HOLY ONES - ten thousands of His saints." But the Interlineary reading from the Diaglott translation gives the clearest of all renderings from the Greek text, so we note, "Lo, comes Lord I-N HOLY MYRIADS OF HIMSELF." "Myriads of HIMSELF." All of them partakers of His divine nature, conformed to His image, filled with His life. Myriads of Himself, of His own kind, born of His seed, a many brethren company of SONS - all His sons. And again we read the testimony: "And the Lord my God shall come, and ALL, THE SAINTS W-T-T-H_T-H-E-E" (Zech. 14:5). The beloved John sees this same scene in wonder-filled vision and speaking in prophetical language writes:
"Behold, He cometh W-I-T-H CLOUDS; and every eye shall see Him" (Rev. 1:7).

Rom. 8:17 contains a marvelous truth. "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also GLORIFIED TOGETHER." To be GLORIFIED TOGETHER is the hope that springs perennial within the breast of all who have by the spirit beheld HIS GLORY. This wonderful experience of being GLORIFIED TOGETHER is a reference of our union with Christ as members of His body, and speaks of a time to come when this entire company of the sons of God, IN UNION WITH CHRIST THE HEAD, shall be GLORIFIED TOGETHER - IMMERSED INTO THE LIFE OF CHRIST, sharing with Him in the fullness of His glory. This entire company shall be joined to Christ to share with Him in the blessed glorification experience when we shall partake of HIS GLORY, bcing fully transformed into the body of His likeness. Verse eighteen of Romans eight refers to that glory as "The glory which shall be revealed IN US." Therefore, it is a glory which is yet to be revealed IN US, that is, in these bodies we shall experience that great glory of Christ when we shall be clothed upon with our heavenly house so that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
We are plainly taught that when Christ who is our life, shall appear, then shall we also appear WITH HIM in glory (Col. 3:4). He can do nothing without us. We are His body. Oh, marvelous thought! Christ has bound us to Himself with ties so strong (no man would sprak of his own hand as being near or far, his hand is part of himself; no man would undertake anything without a full participation on the part of every member of his body in that event), Christ has bound us, I repeat, so eternally and utterly to Himself that we MUST figure in His movements. Of course we shall appear with Him! It could not be otherwise - we are His body. Each elect member of His body has been so grafted into the trunk of the eternal Godhead, so incorporated in His life that He and His body are one. Oh, the unutterable glory of this union with Christ! To what an ineffable destiny it commits us. We no longer concern ourselves about whether or not we shall "go to heaven." The truth of the matter is, we would rather not go, if Christ were not there. Ah, He IS heaven! The faintest glimmer of light from His holy countenance beside which the sun is but a shadow, suffices the heart. Paul could not have done otherwise than sing there in prison when at midnight with Silas, he rejoiced. His back was bleeding with the stripes; it was midnight; he was in prison. But he sings as a participant of Christ; heaven's ineffable light bursts in about him, the glory of the Lord is upon him, and the Lord manifests Himself in this cloud!

We are to participate in Christ's coming. We are moving toward the most stupendous transactions in the history of the human race. Nothing can befall Him that does not befall us. We are yet to participate in a fuller measure in the fruits of redemption. We shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is. With Him we shall reign. The stream of life, which proceedeth from the throne, and from the Lamb and which breaks in upon us, so that even NOW "rivers of living water" flow from our innermost being, is going to just overflow all its banks in this day, so that death will be literally SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY. Oh, that God may give us a heart to make due preparation for the participation in the yet unfulfilled history of Christ. For as we have been made to partake of the death of the Federal Head of the new race, and in Him were resurrected and made to sit in the heavenlies, so, in that sublime event toward which the church moves, the coming of Christ with clouds, we too, shall participate. Thanks be to God for His unspeakable gift!

 

[it'sme]

Comes with CloudS

Some people get bent all out of shape when we tell them that Jesus is not returning riding upon a rain cloud. Let me assure you - the prophecies of the Bible are to be believed! But let us be careful that we do not make them mean something which God did not intend. The mistake that many make is to say that all those prophecies are to be fulfilled in a very physical and natural sense, when the New Testament interpretations indicate that the prophecies do indeed have a literal fulfillment but with a spiritual interpretation. We need to understand that much of the language of the Bible is couched in symbolism, metaphors and allegories.

You should definitely stay out of Revelation,.. 467AIR
This is about Jesus second coming.

Daniel7:13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.

These verses say someone like the Son of Man (Jesus), he gained access to the ancient of Days ( Jehovah) To Jesus was given ( by Jehovah) a ruler-ship. a everlasting ruler-ship. This tells us that Jesus did not have this ruler-ship before. The reason was that Satan has been the ruler of the earth. So even in heaven Jesus was not Jehovah.
The reason that Jesus comes in a cloud in his second coming is that he does not come back to the earth. He reins from heaven, as a spirit creature. ( angel)


(Revelation 1:7) Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.

The meaning of seeing him , is that the results ( or effects) we see on the earth that tells us Jesus has taken over the ruler-ship from Satan.

 

[467AIR]

If this is true then where is this so called verse on the the false belief of the second coming which is a non-scriptual belief? I have been asking you this simple question for at least a week? If anyone needs to stay out of Revelation it is a JW who knows nothing about the most spiriual book in the whole Bible.

You should definitely stay out of Revelation,.. 467AIR
This is about Jesus second coming.

Daniel7:13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.

These verses say someone like the Son of Man (Jesus), he gained access to the ancient of Days ( Jehovah) To Jesus was given ( by Jehovah) a ruler-ship. a everlasting ruler-ship. This tells us that Jesus did not have this ruler-ship before. The reason was that Satan has been the ruler of the earth. So even in heaven Jesus was not Jehovah.
The reason that Jesus comes in a cloud in his second coming is that he does not come back to the earth. He reins from heaven, as a spirit creature. ( angel)


(Revelation 1:7) Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.

The meaning of seeing him , is that the results ( or effects) we see on the earth that tells us Jesus has taken over the ruler-ship from Satan.

 

[it'sme]

If this is true then where is this so called verse on the the false belief of the second coming which is a non-scriptual belief? I have been asking you this simple question for at least a week? If anyone needs to stay out of Revelation it is a JW who knows nothing about the most spiriual book in the whole Bible.

It is really the books of Daniel and Revelation that are about our time. The time of the end. Not to know about this , is to really miss out on the opportunity, that Jehovah has given man at this time. This is just like Noah's day. Only this time, the people that don't make it through will die and that is it for them , there is no resurrection.
I know that what you have been taught, does not go into this at all. But it is in the bible, and it is not some sort of Rapture or anything like that. Some do go to heaven to rule with Jesus at his second coming, but even of the ones the Jehovah accepts, do not. God's purpose for man was the earth, that has not changed. The time of the end is when Gods government takes over Satan's rule, and start the recovery back to what Adam and Eve lost for all of us. That is what the bible is about.

 

[467AIR]

I am done asking you to show me where your verse is in reference to the "second coming"; if you want to debate then it is two sided so either answer the question or that is the end of my converstion. If you have any merit to your false belief then prove it.

It is really the books of Daniel and Revelation that are about our time. The time of the end. Not to know about this , is to really miss out on the opportunity, that Jehovah has given man at this time. This is just like Noah's day. Only this time, the people that don't make it through will die and that is it for them , there is no resurrection.
I know that what you have been taught, does not go into this at all. But it is in the bible, and it is not some sort of Rapture or anything like that. Some do go to heaven to rule with Jesus at his second coming, but even of the ones the Jehovah accepts, do not. God's purpose for man was the earth, that has not changed. The time of the end is when Gods government takes over Satan's rule, and start the recovery back to what Adam and Eve lost for all of us. That is what the bible is about.

 

[it'sme]

I am done asking you to show me where your verse is in reference to the "second coming"; if you want to debate then it is two sided so either answer the question or that is the end of my converstion. If you have any merit to your false belief then prove it.

How could you expect to know anything about it. You don't listen to what the bible says. A good portion of the bible is about the time of the end, or Jesus second coming.
You do realize that you have to know who Jesus and Jehovah are to get it!

 

[467AIR]

So simple. Chapter and verse please? This has nothing to do with the so called false belief in a second coming; the Lord has many returns but none of them have anything to do with the so called lie of the second coming.

There are many ways Jesus is coming,

And so how is He returning as well as when?

Mt 24:27:Light or lighting
Rev. 16:15: thief
Matt. 25:6: bridegroom
Rev 22:16/2:28: morning star
Mal 4:2: sun of righteousness
Phip 3:20,21: resurrection power
II Thes. 1 7-8: flaming fire
Mal 3 1-3: priesthood company, fuller soap, refining fire
1 Thes 4:16-17: air
Hos. 6:3/James 5:7-8: rain
Rev 19:11-14: on white horse
Ma 25:31-34: king
1 Peter 5:4: Chief Sheppard
Ma 16:27: Comes with angels
Jude 14:/1 John 14:18/
II Thes 1:10: comes with saints
Jude 14:15: Judgment
Rev 22:12: with reward

I showed twenty different ways He was coming now show me your and non biblical second coming?

How could you expect to know anything about it. You don't listen to what the bible says. A good portion of the bible is about the time of the end, or Jesus second coming.
You do realize that you have to know who Jesus and Jehovah are to get it!

 

[it'sme]

So simple. Chapter and verse please?

(Hebrews 9:28) so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin and to those earnestly looking for him for [their] salvation.

 

[it'sme]

I showed twenty different ways He was coming now show me your and non biblical second coming?

I am done asking you to show me where your verse is in reference to the "second coming"; if you want to debate then it is two sided so either answer the question or that is the end of my converstion. If you have any merit to your false belief then prove it.

I'm very confused with this you said you showed me twenty different ways he is coming, then you ask me, where does it show he is coming.
Do you see how this is confusing.


Anyway here is the verse .
(Hebrews 9:28) so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin and to those earnestly looking for him for [their] salvation.

 

[FredVB]

Jesus is returning, and in a wonderful way if we look at it scripture shows us that this returning Jesus is Yahweh coming according to prophecy.

Consider the prophecy in Zechariah 12v1-10: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the
inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of
supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have
pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for
his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one
that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Notice it is about Yahweh in the end time who is pierced.
This prophecy is referred to in John 19v33-37 and is
applied to Jesus:
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and
forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw
it bare record, his record is true: and he knoweth that he
sayeth true, that ye might believe. For these things were
done, that the scripture might be fulfilled, A bone of him
shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith,
They shall look on him whom they pierced.
and so is Revelation 1v7:
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him,
and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the
earth shall wail because of him. Even so, amen.
The end time is referred to in Acts 1v10-12:
And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went
up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which
also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into
heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into
heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him
go into heaven.
It describes Jesus return to the Mount of Olives. You
can see in Zechariah 14v1-4 that in the end time it is
Yahweh that sets his foot on that mount:
Behold the day of Yahweh cometh, and thy spoil shall be
divided in the midst of thee. For I gather all nations
against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken,
and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half
the city shall go into captivity, and the residue of the
people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall
Yahweh go forth, and fight against those nations, as when
he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand
in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before
Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall in
the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and
there shall be a very great valley; and half of the
mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it
toward the south.
This can be seen to be the same event for Jesus returns
in that great battle as depicted in Revelation 16v13-14
and 19v11-21.

 

[it'sme]

Jesus is returning, and in a wonderful way if we look at it scripture shows us that this returning Jesus is Yahweh coming according to prophecy.

This is correct, except Jesus is not Jehovah ( Yahweh )
But the bible does really talk about Jesus second coming. This is the time when Satan will be put in the abyss, and that is Armageddon.The results we will see on the earth is a wiping out of all governments and false religions. Also most of the people on the earth will be done away with. But not all.
A scary time for sure.

 

[FredVB]

>Jesus is returning, and in a wonderful way if we look at it scripture shows us that this returning Jesus is Yahweh coming according to prophecy.
​

>This is correct, except Jesus is not Jehovah ( Yahweh )

Did you read all the Scripture passages I showed? Yahweh is clearly showed in the old testament prophecy in the same circumstances that Jesus is in new testament passages. Please look at it carefully rather than relying on what teachings you have been given in your congregation or grown up with. Yahweh is said to be pierced, if you look this will be clear in Zechariah 12, and we are told in Scripture that this is fulfilled with Jesus, and it is applied to his coming in the future, the same described circumstance that Yahweh is prophesied to come in.

 

[it'sme]

Did you read all the Scripture passages I showed? Yahweh is clearly showed in the old testament prophecy in the same circumstances that Jesus is in new testament passages. Please look at it carefully rather than relying on what teachings you have been given in your congregation or grown up with. Yahweh is said to be pierced, if you look this will be clear in Zechariah 12, and we are told in Scripture that this is fulfilled with Jesus, and it is applied to his coming in the future, the same described circumstance that Yahweh is prophesied to come in.

Jesus presented his Father Jehovah is a perfect way. But Jehovah was never created , Jesus is Jehovah's first born of creation.

Colossians 1:13 He delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

Though the bible is symbolic in a lot of ways, it is also very specific also.
I would like share this with you.
This is after Jesus resurrection and he is going to his Father Jehovah,

(John 20:14-18) After saying these things, she turned back and viewed Jesus standing, but she did not discern it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her: “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?” She, imagining it was the gardener, said to him: “Sir, if you have carried him off, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” 16 Jesus said to her: “Mary!” Upon turning around, she said to him, in Hebrew: “Rab‧bo′ni!” (which means “Teacher!&#8221 17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’” 18 Mary Mag′da‧lene came and brought the news to the disciples: “I have seen the Lord!” and that he said these things to her.

Jesus made a point of this to Mary and she was to tell the others this. This was after Jesus had been resurrected.
So even as a spirit in heaven, Jesus has a God. He emphasizing this by saying it was the same God as we worship. There are many scriptures that say the same thing.

Besides the idea of a trinity, is really of pagan origin. It was not part of Christianity until the 3rd and 4th centuries

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, (Deut. 6nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.


But in this topic is more about Jesus coming in the clouds. Which part of the second coming.

 

[FredVB]

It'sme, you wrote: Jesus presented his Father Jehovah is a perfect way. But Jehovah was never created , Jesus is Jehovah's first born of creation.

>Colossians 1:13 He delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

I know you do not agree on this, and perhaps you will not listen to me, but if you would, I can make a case. We will not find a passage that says Jesus was created. He is the firstborn of creation by virtue of his importance, and for the same reason that we are that he is the image of the invisible God, it is because Jesus is the incarnation as a human being of Yahweh God. We are told that in the beginning the Word was with God an was God, and all things have their being by him, and he became flesh, at the start of the Gospel of John.

>I would like share this with you.
This is after Jesus resurrection and he is going to his Father Jehovah, “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”

This is still explained by Jesus being the human incarnation, for the un-incarnate Yahweh God is still the the self-existent, omnipresent, eternal and invisible Creator, to which the incarnation returns.

>Jesus has a God. He emphasizing this by saying it was the same God as we worship.

This too will likely be hard for you to take but others can understand this. The Father Jesus told us of is God to him; but also we may see that Jesus is God to the Father. See this passage in Hebrews 1, which quotes Psalms:

8But about the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy." 10He also says,
"In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end."

Also Scripture tells us and Jesus tells us we should only worship God alone. And yet we can find where Jesus accepts worship.

With regard to the concept of trinity I see it is clear that you do not accept that concept. The word trinity indeed did not come into Christianity for a few centuries, but there was discussion of the divinity of Jesus. The important point is what can be found in the Bible, if not this word, anything relating to the concept. We find that there is only one God, Yahweh the Creator, in reality. The Father is this God. Jesus is this God according to a number of Bible passages, and all things are made by him, and he accepts worship. Jesus says they are One, even though he can speak to the Father, and the Father speaks to him. I can show all these things, but it can be found discussed in my group Christian Tribe of Yahweh, which can be found in yahoo groups, so I do not have to fill up this thread with this discussion.

To relate it back to the discussion here, Yahweh gave predictions that he would come in the final battle on earth, and prophecies of Jesus say that he will fullfill those predictions. The world will see him as he returns, and they will wail because of him who was pierced.

 

[it'sme]

It'sme, you wrote: Jesus presented his Father Jehovah is a perfect way. But Jehovah was never created , Jesus is Jehovah's first born of creation.

>Colossians 1:13 He delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

I know you do not agree on this, and perhaps you will not listen to me, but if you would, I can make a case. We will not find a passage that says Jesus was created. He is the firstborn of creation by virtue of his importance, and for the same reason that we are that he is the image of the invisible God, it is because Jesus is the incarnation as a human being of Yahweh God. We are told that in the beginning the Word was with God an was God, and all things have their being by him, and he became flesh, at the start of the Gospel of John.

>I would like share this with you.
This is after Jesus resurrection and he is going to his Father Jehovah, “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”

This is still explained by Jesus being the human incarnation, for the un-incarnate Yahweh God is still the the self-existent, omnipresent, eternal and invisible Creator, to which the incarnation returns.

>Jesus has a God. He emphasizing this by saying it was the same God as we worship.

This too will likely be hard for you to take but others can understand this. The Father Jesus told us of is God to him; but also we may see that Jesus is God to the Father. See this passage in Hebrews 1, which quotes Psalms:

8But about the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy." 10He also says,
"In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end."

Also Scripture tells us and Jesus tells us we should only worship God alone. And yet we can find where Jesus accepts worship.

With regard to the concept of trinity I see it is clear that you do not accept that concept. The word trinity indeed did not come into Christianity for a few centuries, but there was discussion of the divinity of Jesus. The important point is what can be found in the Bible, if not this word, anything relating to the concept. We find that there is only one God, Yahweh the Creator, in reality. The Father is this God. Jesus is this God according to a number of Bible passages, and all things are made by him, and he accepts worship. Jesus says they are One, even though he can speak to the Father, and the Father speaks to him. I can show all these things, but it can be found discussed in my group Christian Tribe of Yahweh, which can be found in yahoo groups, so I do not have to fill up this thread with this discussion.

To relate it back to the discussion here, Yahweh gave predictions that he would come in the final battle on earth, and prophecies of Jesus say that he will fullfill those predictions. The world will see him as he returns, and they will wail because of him who was pierced.

This talking about Jesus. Being the first creation of God.
Revalation 3:14 “And to the angel of the congregation in La‧o‧di‧ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God

Proverbs 8:22 “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24 When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, heavily charged with water. 25 Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, 26 when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. 27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31 being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.


Proverbs 8:22-31 (Contemporary English Version)

22From the beginning,
I was with the LORD (Jehovah). [a] I was there before he began
23to create the earth.
At the very first,
the LORD ( Jehovah) gave life to [b] me. 24When I was born,
there were no oceans
or springs of water.
25My birth was before
mountains were formed
or hills were put in place.
26It happened long before God
had made the earth
or any of its fields
or even the dust.





(I added Jehovah here in italics)


Proverbs 8:22-31 (Today's New International Version)

22 "The LORD ( Jehovah)brought me forth as the first of his works, [a][b]
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,






Proverbs 8:22-31 (New International Version - UK)


22The LORD ( Jehovah) brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.




All of these scriptures say the basically the same thing. Jesus was born and that he was with God from the beginning of all other creation.



John 20:11 Mary, however, kept standing outside near the memorial tomb, weeping. Then, while she was weeping, she stooped forward to look into the memorial tomb 12 and she viewed two angels in white sitting one at the head and one at the feet where the body of Jesus had been lying. 13 And they said to her: “Woman, why are you weeping?” She said to them: “They have taken my Lord away, and I do not know where they have laid him.” 14 After saying these things, she turned back and viewed Jesus standing, but she did not discern it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her: “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?” She, imagining it was the gardener, said to him: “Sir, if you have carried him off, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” 16 Jesus said to her: “Mary!” Upon turning around, she said to him, in Hebrew: “Rab‧bo′ni!” (which means “Teacher!&#8221 17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’” 18 Mary Mag′da‧lene came and brought the news to the disciples: “I have seen the Lord!” and that he said these things to her.


In John here confirms that Jesus has a God. Mary saw 2 angels which tells us they were materialized for her. Jesus talked to her she did not know it was him. He materialized for her , but she did not recognize him ( She was his mother, she would have known) so Jesus has taken on a human form ( it wasn't his old body before he died.) , so he could talk to her. He was already going to heaven with the other angels that Mary saw.
This is when he said he had a Father and God.
This goes along with the other scriptures I quoted about Jesus being born. Jesus also made a special point to tell Mary where and to whom he was going.
All these scripture are in agreement with each other. All the times that Jesus when on the earth said he was God's Son that is what he meant.

 

[FredVB]

The only things you wrote in your reponse to me was Proverbs 8:22-31, & this, all else I dealt with:

>Revalation 3:14 “And to the angel of the congregation in La‧o‧di‧ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God

The passage from Proverbs cannot be clearly referring to the Lord Jesus, and there is common consensus that the reference is to a personification of wisdom, that is, the tremendous knowledge incorprated in planning for and producing Creation, and there are other examples of personifications in the Bible. Jesus is spoken himself as actually being the Creator, that everything that has being was created by him, and nothing that was created was without him creating. And yet God says he knows there is no other god or creator. Deduction and process of elimination leads to my logical conclusion. This would be found to be more fully explored at the group mentioned earlier.

That Jesus is the beginning of the ceation of God is consistent with him being the Creator. ANYONE that is the Creator of all things that are in Creation is the one God, and there cannot be another. Jesus is justifiably worshipped.

 

[it'sme]

The passage from Proverbs cannot be clearly referring to the Lord Jesus, and there is common consensus that the reference is to a personification of wisdom, that is, the tremendous knowledge incorprated in planning for and producing Creation, and there are other examples of personifications in the Bible. Jesus is spoken himself as actually being the Creator, that everything that has being was created by him, and nothing that was created was without him creating. And yet God says he knows there is no other god or creator. Deduction and process of elimination leads to my logical conclusion. This would be found to be more fully explored at the group mentioned earlier.

That Jesus is the beginning of the ceation of God is consistent with him being the Creator. ANYONE that is the Creator of all things that are in Creation is the one God, and there cannot be another. Jesus is justifiably worshipped.

If you read this scripture in Proverb, this is not talking about Jehovah becasue he never came about with birth pains, or was he born. These verses are directly telling us in no uncertain claims the Jehovah produced or made Jesus . Jesus even says here twice that he was born. But these verses continue on to say, that this happened before the earth or anything else was created. He plainly says that it was before the mountains and water etc.
Other scriptures say it was through Jesus that all other creation happened. also in other places in the bible when it talking about a firstborn, it is also talking about the first created from parents. Like a firstborn son. Which was to receive the inheritance.



Colossians 1:13-17 (Young's Literal Translation)

13who did rescue us out of the authority of the darkness, and did translate [us] into the reign of the Son of His love,
14in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of the sins,
15who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
16because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,

We say today, he is the spitting image of his father.
That doesn't mean he is his father. it means he is just like his father. That is why Jesus is the image of Jehovah.
If you come to any other conclusion that Jesus is Jehovah's Son, then the scriptures are full of contradictions. John 20:17 for instance.
Man did not kill God they killed Gods Son.
The scriptures even say that no man has seen God at anytime. But Jesus has explained him.
this whole trinity idea really came from paganism. It came in with Constantine in the 3rd century, with the cross, and was a merging of Sun Worship and Christianity. The trinity goes back to Babylon.

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Lo, he comes on clouds descending