Having communion while being a very liberal Christian

[Carl Emerson]

Christians can often disagree though (e.g. about the ordination of women)... even if they believe the Holy Spirit is guiding them... and there's 2 Corinthians 11:14 "....for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light"

Are you suggesting that an atheist is more likely to be inspired regarding the interpretation of scripture?

I have already shown his interpretation to be flawed from scripture.

Christians agree on the fundamentals of the faith but have a different take on peripheral issues.

 

[JohnClay]

Are you suggesting that an atheist is more likely to be inspired regarding the interpretation of scripture?

They might be more aware of what scripture seems to say than some liberal Christians.

I have already shown his interpretation to be flawed from scripture.

Yes I agree.

Christians agree on the fundamentals of the faith but have a different take on peripheral issues.

Then there are people like Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, who claim to be Christian but many others say they aren't "true" Christians. So I find the idea that the Holy Spirit leads to a knowledge of the Truth to be problematic.

 

[Carl Emerson]

They might be more aware of what scripture seems to say than some liberal Christians.


Yes I agree.


Then there are people like Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, who claim to be Christian but many others say they aren't "true" Christians. So I find the idea that the Holy Spirit leads to a knowledge of the Truth to be problematic.

Well the scripture was given for this very reason - to expose the likes of the groups you mention who have both deviated from Scripture and published their own modified 'bible' to justify their deception.

Frankly I think you will find many things problematic until you encounter Him, are born again and experience the renewing of the mind. Its all or nothing - you can pontificate forever and be treading water spiritually, miss out on the Joy and the abundant life. He is waiting for your child like response. It isn't about intellectual cleverness. The response He looks for is heart not mind.

 

[JohnClay]

......Frankly I think you will find many things problematic until you encounter Him,

My point is that it can't be the Truth in all cases if Christians disagree about it - even if they're sure it is from the Holy Spirit. Though they could just say that the things they agree about are the Truth.

....are born again and experience the renewing of the mind. Its all or nothing - you can pontificate forever and be treading water spiritually, miss out on the Joy and the abundant life.

My cognitive problems are still very bad but lately I've been offered a job that I might be capable of - pushing trolleys...

He is waiting for your child like response. It isn't about intellectual cleverness. The response He looks for is heart not mind.

BTW here are my latest thoughts about theology:
Christianity and Computer Simulations?
I'm aware of the idea that the Bible promotes faith and trust in God's wisdom and not rely on human reasoning....

 

[Carl Emerson]

My point is that it can't be the Truth in all cases if Christians disagree about it - even if they're sure it is from the Holy Spirit. Though they could just say that the things they agree about are the Truth.

Yes you are right because learning what is the Holy Spirit and what is not takes time. This is complicated by churches spinning their theological line rather than encouraging folks to learn of Him.

 

[BigV]

Does one verse interpret the bible or the bible interpret one verse?

I'm surprised you think it's only one verse that tells you about giving up possessions.

Again, the rich young ruler asked Jesus about entering eternal life, and Jesus told him to sell everything he had and to give to the poor. And the rich man went away sad.

Jesus told people to give to everyone who asks, and to not demand back what was taken from you.

To sell your possessions and to give to the poor and that nobody can be Jesus' disciple unless they give up all their posessions.

In the book of Acts you see this practiced, with Christians selling everything they had and living in the commune. Now, where did they get this idea if it wasn't Jesus' teaching?

And lastly, Luke's Gospel quotes Jesus as saying 'blessed are you who are poor and woe to you who are rich'.

I'm not arguing that the Gospels don't contain contradictions (they do), but it's also clear that Jesus was anti rich and very pro poor.

 

[BigV]

Are you suggesting that an atheist is more likely to be inspired regarding the interpretation of scripture?

I have already shown his interpretation to be flawed from scripture.

Christians agree on the fundamentals of the faith but have a different take on peripheral issues.

I find it very ironic that you think the Holy Spirit tells you to interpret the Bible in a way that is contrary to what it actually says.

Mark 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

It's interesting that if your interpretation is right, then a bunch of verses make no sense, including the one above. If you don't have to give up wealth, then it's very easy for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

Again, I don't want you to give up your possessions. My point here is to show that Jesus' commands make little sense and nobody follows his teachings. Even the likes of John MacArthur, who claim that it's impossible to be saved and not be a disciple, on the one hand, and on the other makes hundreds of thousands of dollars from his church and seminary, no doubt considering himself to be one of the disciples.

 

[Carl Emerson]

In the book of Acts you see this practiced, with Christians selling everything they had and living in the commune. Now, where did they get this idea if it wasn't Jesus' teaching?

Where does it say they sold all they had?

Mark 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

Not easy - agreed... but not impossible either. It is all a matter of attitude and being willing to give up all if that is what Jesus requires.

 

[BigV]

Where does it say they sold all they had?

Acts 4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. 33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

Not easy - agreed... but not impossible either. It is all a matter of attitude and being willing to give up all if that is what Jesus requires.

But Jesus did not say you need to be willing to do this. Besides, how is a willingness judged? Lets say Jeff Bezos, the CEO of Amazon makes a claim that he is willing to give up all his possessions, while keeping everything just as he is doing now. How do you judge willingness?

And what about the passage teaching about how difficult it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Why are the rich singled out? According to modern theologians and according to Paul, it's no more difficult for the rich to be saved than it it for the poor.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Acts 4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. 33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

You have just disproved your point...

They shared everything they had !!!

They did not sell or otherwise dispose of everything they had.

Their possessions were still their possessions to voluntarily share or not and they chose to share them.

But Jesus did not say you need to be willing to do this. Besides, how is a willingness judged? Lets say Jeff Bezos, the CEO of Amazon makes a claim that he is willing to give up all his possessions, while keeping everything just as he is doing now. How do you judge willingness?

God judges the heart as He did with Ananias and his wife.

Note:

Don't get me wrong, I have a deep belief in Christian community and see it as a neglected truth that believers need to return to.

 

[JohnClay]

....Again, the rich young ruler asked Jesus about entering eternal life, and Jesus told him to sell everything he had and to give to the poor. And the rich man went away sad.....

Matthew 19:16-21:
Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

“Which ones?” he inquired.

Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”

“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

 

[Carl Emerson]

Matthew 19:16-21:
Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

“Which ones?” he inquired.

Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”

“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Jesus knew that he had an attachment to His possessions that he would not submit, and that would prevent him from coming to full surrender and be a true follower.

 

[JohnClay]

Jesus knew that he had an attachment to His possessions that he would not submit, and that would prevent him from coming to full surrender and be a true follower.

If I was the rich young man I'd be happy with eternal life (by keeping the commandments) rather than trying to be "perfect".

 

[BigV]

If I was the rich young man I'd be happy with eternal life (by keeping the commandments) rather than trying to be "perfect".

I don’t think it’s either or proposition. Right after the rich man went away sad, because of his great wealth, Jesus said it’s very difficult for a rich man to enter heaven.

 

[JohnClay]

I don’t think it’s either or proposition. Right after the rich man went away sad, because of his great wealth, Jesus said it’s very difficult for a rich man to enter heaven.

Matthew 19:23-25

Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”​

I heard a pastor say that people assumed that rich people would go to Heaven which explains why the disciples said "Who then can be saved?"
That implies that the disciples thought it is more likely for a rich man to be saved than other people.
Matthew Chapter 19

c. They were exceedingly amazed: The great amazement of the disciples was based on the assumption that riches were always a sign of God’s blessing and favor.

i. They had probably hoped that their following of Jesus would make them rich and influential, and prominent leaders in His Messianic government. “In a culture where wealth was regarded as a sign of God’s blessing and where a religious teacher was therefore expected to be at least moderately wealthy, the lifestyle of Jesus and his disciples was conspicuously different.” (France)​

 

[Carl Emerson]

If I was the rich young man I'd be happy with eternal life (by keeping the commandments) rather than trying to be "perfect".

The entrance into eternal life is through accepting Jesus's perfection not our attempt to keep the commandments.

 

[sea5763]

nvm

 

[BigV]

However the Bible also tells us to be dependent on no one and work so as to walk properly before outsiders.

I'm guessing that wasn't Jesus' teaching. I agree that Paul doesn't repeat what Jesus teaches.

Where Jesus says to "give to everyone who asks of you", Paul says.. "he who doesn't work shouldn't eat".

Most (if not all) Christians follow Paul.

 

[sea5763]

nvm

 

[BigV]

But how can you give away possessions you haven't earned by not working? Wouldn't that just lead to stealing from one person to give to someone else? Paul is an apostle and his teachings are in the Bible.

With God, according to Jesus, everything is possible.

Jesus tells people not to worry about tomorrow, look at the birds, etc..

Matthew 6:25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?

28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin.

I would submit that the teaching is very irresponsible, and, no doubt, one reason people who take it seriously end up seriously hurt or worse.

Not to change the subject, but another one that is just as bad is:

Matthew 5:39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

Well, but what about if they are raping or abusing your loved ones? Are you supposed to let them continue? Good question, but if you take Jesus' command literally, then "do not resist" would mean resisting is a sin. But if you take a more liberal approach, 'do not resist' becomes..."use all means to stop the evil person, including using deadly force, if warranted".

But that is my point that I've tried to consistently make here. EVERY Christian is a liberal one, unless they are homeless and living under the bridge without possessions and getting beat up without resisting!