Having a hard time with "theonomists." Are they truly Christians?

[2PhiloVoid]

Point taken. Replace "is" with "seems to be from the many things I've read and from the online discussions I had on AmericanVision.org over the years when AV had a forum". This way I won't have to cite and then ask you to cite your sources for your statement.

Please be free to add or subtract as you choose. From what I've observed and the many discussions I've had and read, this seems to me to summarize the 2 main thoughts - either the Christians is to be involved or the Christian is not to be involved - a simple dichotomy as I read the input from many. "There aren't" and "It's not" are some very conclusive statements which I'm certain you must be able to elaborate upon.

In the continuing context of the few posts which I've entered here and of post #3 re: Reconstructionists, the narrow aperture would be the [continuation] of work on Presupposition and then Theonomy beginning with R.J. Rushdoony and those who came after him - one of them being Greg Bahnsen who I mentioned. That's the era. That's the aperture. My assumption was that this aperture and thereafter is what the OP is drawing from.

Alright.

 

[Cathy100]

Theonomists believe that ultimately our government should adopt and establish the Law of Moses (I'm being serious) and should ultimately stone children for their disobedience to their parents and even stone homosexuals. They want to adopt a law that the writer of Hebrews called "obsolete" and one which Paul said carried and conferred a "curse."

To me it seems that if you want an entire nation to submit to this law you are likely not a Christian and are rather a heretic. God gave this law to Israel only (Ps. 148) and Paul said that it was "abolished" in Ephesians 2.

As an aside, many people seem to be confused by whether the law was merely "fulfilled" or abolished. Jesus said that the law would not pass away until "heaven and earth pass away." He spoke this to the Jews (the sermon on the mount was near the Sea of Galilee) and thus it is important to consider any Hebrew idioms that may be used. As it turns out, the phrase "heavens and earth" was a Hebrew idiom denoting the Temple of Jerusalem. When Jesus said that the law would stand until heavens and earth passed away He was predicting the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. when Nero invaded and ordered General Titus to raze Jerusalem. When this occurred, the diaspora followed making it impossible for the Jews to follow the law of Moses. This view comports with Eph. 2 and much of Hebrews which suggests that the law was in fact "abolished" (Eph. 2:15). Further, the Jews did not truly begin following the law of Moses when they were reunited in 1948. Even Orthodox and conservative Jews do not adhere to its strictest and most brutal instruction.

Again I ask, how in the world can these people who have such immense disregard for human life, who believe that women should be banished from their towns when they are menstruating be actual Christians? Hopefully, I am missing something.

This is my first ever post on this forum. I regret that it is so intense and possibly divisive but I feel it is well worth discussing as this is a rising doctrine in our country.

God bless.

That sounds like Islamic belief that's exactly what they believe.

 

[Soyeong]

That sounds like Islamic belief that's exactly what they believe.

If the God of Islam were the one true God, then would Muslims be wrong for believing that? The difference is that Christians believe that the God of Israel is the one true God.

 

[Mandolin Wood]

That sounds like Islamic belief that's exactly what they believe.

That's a lot of information I didn't know. Something to ponder about. I'm not currently studying the book of John but I have in the past. I'm new too. Welcome!

 

[GDL]

That sounds like Islamic belief that's exactly what they believe.

That's a shame. As is the title of this thread (cc: @DrDeck).

Theonomists (the ones I've read and others I've had discussions with) are Christians looking at the mess of the world and asking what the laws of a nation should be based in, God's Law or man's law. The answer seems simple to this Christian.

Most of those who I've read and discussed Theonomy with are in the USA. Our elected officials are our legislators. Do we want them instituting ungodly laws, Sharia law, what man thinks is right, what law? Although the secular part of the US wants no input from Christians, Christian Americans get to vote and give input to the laws of the nation. So, what should our input be? That's the question Theonomy is asking and answering - how would God want this nation run? He's given the governments of men the power of the sword. How does he want it used?

Biblical Law in my experience and from all I've read on the topic is one of the least understood topics in our Faith. If you look around this forum you'll get glimpses of this. If you read books re: Biblical Law written by Christian scholars, you'll see more. One of the best lines I've read in one of such books was (paraphrased), 'As I begin writing this book, I want to say that no one understands Biblical Law.' Then he wrote 300-400 pages on Biblical Law while not having posited that he fully understood the topic or knew anybody that did. In my opinion, this is one of the biggest failures of Christians who are supposed to grow in Righteousness, which is detailed in Law and Wisdom.

I wouldn't cast a wide net on whether or not Theonomists are Christians, nor would I compare them to Islamists. The reason I say wide net is because there are always fringe elements in any group and such elements can make the entire group look bad. But in my experience and IMO the core group of Theonomists from decades ago were serious Christians asking serious questions and suggesting serious answers.

So, pick a legal topic and think how you would legislate it if we elected you to represent us as Christians. Would you review the vast body of Biblical Law and ask God for the guidance of His Spirit in His Word?

 

[Sabertooth]

Where does the Bible make a disctinction between the moral and levitical law? It seems that covenant theologians are frequently making this distinction and yet I can find it nowhere in the Bible?

"[God] also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant,

not of the letter but of the Spirit;​

for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." 2 Corinthians 3:6 NKJV​

Christians are called to have faith in Jesus Christ, not be taught by any groups, not be taught by any people, no examples of peoples lives, their own testimonies.

"And He Himself gave

• some to be apostles,
• some prophets,
• some evangelists, and
• some pastors and
• teachers,

for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry,​

for the edifying of the body of Christ,​

till we all come

1. to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
2. to a perfect man,
3. to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;..." Ephesians 4:11-13 NKJV

 

[GDL]

Where does the Bible make a disctinction between the moral and levitical law? It seems that covenant theologians are frequently making this distinction and yet I can find it nowhere in the Bible?

IMO this is one of the most important questions of this time of theological history.

Isn't teaching people to abide by the law of Moses a heresy?

Secular people or Christians or both?

Your identity info says Non-Denominational. Theological camp leanings? Reformed or ?

 

[Sabertooth]

OP, how is a theonomist different from a garden-variety theocrat...?

 

[GDL]

OP, how is a theonomist different from a garden-variety theocrat...?

I guess I'd expand the question and first ask for your explanation of "The Thearchy".

Apart from that, from what I've observed, there was enough humility in some of those I read to know that there was a lot of work to be done to make sure God's Law was correctly understood.

I'm not sure this has been brought up and I'm not going back to read all posts, but how do those opposed to a theonomic concept interpret Rom13 especially Rom13:4?

 

[Sabertooth]

I guess I'd expand the question and first ask for your explanation of "The Thearchy".

The Thearchy is Jesus, Himself, ruling (in Person), not fallible clergy.
[From Ancient Greek θεαρχία (thearkhía), from θεός (theós, “god”) + -αρχία (-arkhía, “rule, ruling”).]
This view is supported by

• Daniel 2:19-45 &
• Isaiah 9:7

and is reiterated in

Acts 1:9-11​

...especially Rom13:4?

"Ministers," in that context is similar to a prime minister and not (necessarily) a function of clergy.
Remember: Jesus, Himself, was crucified by misguided theocrats. And they had the most correct law books...!

 

[GDL]

The Thearchy is Jesus, Himself, ruling (in Person), not fallible clergy.
[From Ancient Greek θεαρχία (thearkhía), from θεός (theós, “god”) + -αρχία (-arkhía, “rule, ruling”).]
This view is supported by

• Daniel 2:19-45 &
• Isaiah 9:7

and is reiterated in

Acts 1:9-11​

Thanks for your definition. Since you're an ambassador, how are we to function to represent His rule? What is His standard for men?

"Ministers," in that context is similar to a prime minister and not (necessarily) a function of clergy.
Remember: Jesus, Himself, was crucified by misguided theocrats. And they had the most correct law books...!

I'd probably expand it beyond a prime minister to include any form of "servants" in law - from leaders and legislators to enforcement - the power of the sword and ability to praise the good and be against the evil.

So, by what standard does this servant structure function if people have the ability to put people in their servant of God positions?

Theonomists are simply saying by Theos Nomos and not used by a clergy of misguided theocrats. Having the most correct law book and using it correctly (1Tim1:8) for instruction in righteousness (2Tim3:16). Thearchy > Theonomy - God > God's Law used lawfully.

 

[Sabertooth]

...how are we to function to represent His rule?

We, the believers or we, all of humanity...?

So, by what standard does this servant structure function if people have the ability to put people in their servant of God positions?

I answered this in another thread, Apart from King David, there is respect for governors, did God choose Nero to rule Rome around 65 AD?

Thearchy > Theonomy - God > God's Law used lawfully.

Theonomy will work correctly in the Thearchy. Our King will be neither ambiguous, hypocritical nor unjust.
Attempted theonomy has always failed spectacularly under a theocracy.

 

[GDL]

We, the believers or we, all of humanity...?

We ambassadors.

 

[Sabertooth]

We ambassadors.

"Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us:
we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God." 2 Corinthians 5:20 NKJV

 

[GDL]

Attempted theonomy has always failed spectacularly under a theocracy.

has always under a theocracy doesn't necessarily represent the Theonomy being discussed by some who began the discussion.

 

[GDL]

"Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us:
we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God." 2 Corinthians 5:20 NKJV

So, no involvement in legislation and politics and only evangelism?

 

[Sabertooth]

So, no involvement in legislation and politics and only evangelism?

Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and give unto God what is God's.
Secular law can be improved upon but it can never be turned into a Thearchy-level theonomy. For one, there are too many competing ideas on what that should look like --and that is just among believers...!

1. For example (in secular law), we cannot force women to love their children, but we can establish that the children's human/civil rights should be acknowledged before birth.
2. Secular law has no capacity to regulate sexual interactions between two (or more) consenting adults. That is clearly a tenet of theonomy, however. Previous theocracies have gone so far to attempt to regulate what practices are and are not acceptable even within a Biblical marriage bed...!
3. Witchcraft is not even acknowledged by secular law and, if it somehow was, the law would have great difficulty discerning between it and the supernatural signs & wonders from God.

In terms of prosecution, the best law is some minimum necessary to maintain order. As evangelists, we do not press for non-felons to get their due. That is a forgone conclusion, especially for people who live risky lifestyles.

It is our mission that as many as possible should live long enough to "be reconciled to God!" instead.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Where does the Bible make a disctinction between the moral and levitical law? It seems that covenant theologians are frequently making this distinction and yet I can find it nowhere in the Bible?

Hi there,

If we read the scriptures carefully- God made the distinction between the Ten Commandments and the law of Moses.

God alone wrote the Ten Commandments- this is His work- not Moses Exo 32:16 Exo 31:18 after God wrote and spoke the Ten Commandments- He added no more- God is perfect and would be impossible for Him to make a mistake with something He personally engraved- put His stamp on it by writing it with His own finger and contains His seal. God makes no mistakes, man does. God’s law is perfect converting the soul Psa 19:7 and after He wrote and He spoke His holy law He added no more because nothing more could be added to make His holy commandments complete. Exo 5:22 Exo 34:28 Deut 4:13

After God wrote and spoke the Ten Commandments in stone (eternal) by His own finger - He had Moses place them inside the ark of the Covenant Exo 40:20.
In contrast (distinction) all of the law of Moses , written on paper (fades) by a human hand - Moses- was place outside the ark. Deuteronomy 31:26. It was placed outside as witness against for not what keeping the Ten Commandments that was inside the ark of the covenant. Clear distinctions.

Paul also contrast these laws-

1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Jesus in His own Words said He did not come to destroy the law and not one jot or tittle can be removed Mat 5:17-30 because no one has the authority above God to change His work. It’s a very prideful teaching that we can, like we are above God, something He wrote and spoke and is also in His heavenly Temple Rev 11:19 this teaching comes from another spirit. Isaiah 14:13

Jesus quoted from the same Ten Commandments and said when we keep our rules/traditions over the commandments of God our heart is far from Him (opposite of the NC- God’s law in our heart Heb 8:10) Mar 7:7-13 Mat 15:3-14 and why we see Him and His disciples keeping the Ten Commandments (His version) in His life and the life of the disciples. The doctrine that the Ten Commandments ended at the cross is a teaching of man leading people down the wrong path Mat 5:19 Rev 22:14 we are to live by faith and by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Mat 4:4 God does not change- His character which is the foundation of His law. Psa 119:151, Psa 119:172 Psa 19:7

 

[GDL]

Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and give unto God what is God's.

Yes, secular human gov't exists.

Secular law can be improved on but it can never be turned into a Thearchy-level theonomy.

Theonomy. It is understood that Jesus Christ is in Heaven.

For one, there are too many competing ideas on what that should look like --and that is just among believers...!

No reason to not strive for our best. There are always competing ideas among men.

1. For example (in secular law), we cannot force women to love their children, but we can establish that the children's human/civil rights should be acknowledged before birth.

A Theonomic approach?

1. Secular law has no capacity to regulate sexual interactions between two or more consenting adults. That is clearly a tenet of theonomy, however. Previous theocracies have gone so far to attempt to regulate what practices are and are not acceptable even within a Biblical marriage bed...!

A mature theonomy would think it can place cameras in bedrooms or it would continue to refine what was the law in the US and not support and incentivize sexual degeneracy?

1. Witchcraft is not even acknowledged by secular law and, if it somehow was, the law would have great difficulty discerning between it and the supernatural signs & wonders from God.

Frankly I'd probably consider some form of Ekklesia penalization of current day "prophets" who fail the test for Prophets. No one is saying this would be easy, and christians today would likely be trying to kill Balaams' donkey for being demon possessed. But Paul says we're going to be judging angels so why not things here? Yet the prevailing sentiment in the prevailing immaturity is "do not judge". Shouldn't some of us be the best judges?

In terms of prosecution, the best law is some minimum necessary to maintain order. As evangelists, we do not want non-felons to get their due. That is a forgone conclusion, especially for people who live risky lifestyles.

So, how is the minimizing working out? Are things getting better or worse?

Your second sentence?

It is our mission that as many as possible should live long enough to "be reconciled to God!" instead.

So, no capital punishment and decades in prison for serial murderers?

 

[Sabertooth]

It is understood that Jesus Christ is in Heaven.

Just until He fulfills Acts 1:9-11.

A Theonomic approach?

Our motives can be theonomic, but our application needs to be compatible the secular-based system. Affirming Fetal Rights does both.

A mature theonomy would think it can place cameras in bedrooms...

And you think that is a good thing...?

So, how is the minimizing working out? Are things getting better or worse?

We no longer have slavery anymore (but the lack of fetal rights is a similar error).

So, no capital punishment and decades in prison for serial murderers?

I spoke of non-felons. Capital punishment for murder still fits in the secular law model. (I don't know why you went there.) Death row conversions are a thing, starting with one of the thieves on the cross next to Jesus.

There is no reason why

• a consenting homosexual couple,
• a heterosexual couple that agrees to having an "open" marriage or
• a fortune-teller, etc.

should ever be designated felonies in our current legal model. They certainly face judgment in the next life, but according to Paul, that is where some Christians come from [1 Corinthians 6:11].