Have your core beliefs ever changed?

You ask any Catholic and they will tell you they don't worship Mary or any of the Saints. They do ask them to intercede on their behalf, but that is it.

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Can I ask what the point is asking for dead people to intercede for you? Isn't that what the Holy spirit is for? why ask people who are asleep and know nothing...you're praying to corpses...doesnt make sense!

Floatingaxe said:

Philippians 1:6
And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.

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aaah that's it! Thank you...gonna save it now so I don't forget

Cassidy said:

Can I ask what the point is asking for dead people to intercede for you? Isn't that what the Holy spirit is for? why ask people who are asleep and know nothing...you're praying to corpses...doesnt make sense!

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(haha I can't seem to leave this thread )

I believe that Christ has conquered death, those who are in Christ "shall live, even though they die". The Saints, and Mary, are alive in Heaven. They are not dead, or asleep. (our bodies are asleep when we die, until the Resurrection, not our souls). We ask the Saints to pray for us just like we ask our friends on earth to pray for us.. it's the same.. the only difference is that the Saints are very close to God, since they're in Heaven, and "the prayer of a righteous man avails much"

God bless.

Ok well my bible says something different that our souls are asleep in Jesus awaiting for the redemption of our bodies. The only person who went to heaven is Christ.

Cassidy said:

Ok well my bible says something different that our souls are asleep in Jesus awaiting for the redemption of our bodies. The only person who went to heaven is Christ.

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Christians have never believed in 'soul sleep' till modern times.. I guess there are different ways of reading those passages

As for the original post, I was raised Baptist, but never really was a believer. I became an agnostic of sorts (and got into some pretty serious trouble), then started learning about pagan and eastern religions (esp. Taoism), and eventually after a near-death experience, some other strange occurances and plenty of soul-searching, research, etc..., became an Orthodox Christian.

Well, hades is the "abode of the dead" whatever that means...

Death and hades will give up the dead that was in it.... hmmm....

MoNiCa4316 said:

Christians have never believed in 'soul sleep' till modern times.. I guess there are different ways of reading those passages

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Well which one is right? What if your interpretation is wrong...who are you praying to? Or what if it's right? Then why is it that the bible says that the dead know nothing if they can intercede for you?

The bible does say that the HOly Spirit is what intercedes for us...if that be true, then why the need for other people doing the Holy Spirit's job for him? Isn't he good enough to intercede for you in your church?

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

Isaiah 19:3
The Egyptians will lose heart,
and I will bring their plans to nothing;
they will consult the idols and the spirits of the dead,
the mediums and the spiritists.






Such behaviour is at enmity with our Holy God. Is the RCC as Egypt?

Ooooh wow - that's pretty confronting Axe. Yeh would like to know how the RCC's explain that away.

Cassidy said:

Well which one is right? What if your interpretation is wrong...who are you praying to? Or what if it's right? Then why is it that the bible says that the dead know nothing if they can intercede for you?

The bible does say that the HOly Spirit is what intercedes for us...if that be true, then why the need for other people doing the Holy Spirit's job for him? Isn't he good enough to intercede for you in your church?

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then why ask your friends to pray for you?

it's the same thing, essentially..

the Church is both on earth and in Heaven, we are one Body in Christ, we do not leave Him when we die, so we do not leave the Church.. it was different in the OT, now, Christ has conquered death..

I am fairly confident in the interpretation I suscribe to, because that is how Christians have read those passages since the early Church days, and because asking the Saints to pray for me has helped me a lot spiritually. So many times I needed help and asked Mary to pray with me, and the prayers were answered in miraculous ways. And I've gotten closer to God and started to understand Scripture better as well, ever since I asked Mary to lead me closer to her Son.. so I believe in it if it was demons, the "fruits" wouldn't be good.

I used to not believe in any of this too, but I asked God to show me, and He has I suggest to anyone, just..ask God how He sees Mary. And have an open heart, wait for Him to show you. Surely it is not wrong to ask Him about this

Floatingaxe said:

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

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and I don't disagree with that.. neither does the Catholic Church.. I have already said that we do not believe that Mary is another mediator that's not what 'Mediatrix' means theologically.

and intercessor does not equal to mediator.. we are each others' intercessors whenever we pray for one another

Isaiah 19:3
The Egyptians will lose heart,
and I will bring their plans to nothing;
they will consult the idols and the spirits of the dead,
the mediums and the spiritists.

Such behaviour is at enmity with our Holy God. Is the RCC as Egypt?

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Well, the Catholic Church condemns idolatry, spiritism, and mediums. In fact, that is considered grave sin and something people go to Confession for.

When we ask the Saints to pray for us, we don't "consult" them. We just ask them to pray for us to God, and He decides how to answer. And we never ever use any mediums or spiritists.

I was once driving past a "mediums" office... and right when I drove by it, I felt soo uncomfortable spiritually, I started praying and making the sign of the cross lol. But when I'm around Mary or Saint stuff at my church, it's never ever like this. All I feel is that we have a family in Heaven praying for us.

Here's a verse for anyone who thinks that the saints in heaven are dead.
"since we are surrounded by the cloud of witnesses"...

God bless.

Regarding the intercessions of the Saints:

http://www.eastern-orthodoxy.com/intercession.htm
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/invocationofsaints.aspx

my beliefs have changed about hell...

I realized one day that I believed only what others told me and never truely looked into it, asking God for guidence. What I found shocked me to no end.

It was very hard deciding to go against mainstream chrisitainity about it, but I knew it was the truth, so I really didn't have a choice in the matter. I also wondered why I thought the church was so infallable especially when I clearly see how messed up it is right now, and could be wrong, clearly...

MoNiCa4316 said:

then why ask your friends to pray for you?

it's the same thing, essentially..

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It is absolutely not.

[/quote]I am fairly confident in the interpretation I suscribe to, because that is how Christians have read those passages since the early Church days, and because asking the Saints to pray for me has helped me a lot spiritually. So many times I needed help and asked Mary to pray with me, and the prayers were answered in miraculous ways. And I've gotten closer to God and started to understand Scripture better as well, ever since I asked Mary to lead me closer to her Son.. so I believe in it if it was demons, the "fruits" wouldn't be good.[/quote]

Misdirected prayers go to the powers of the air---Satan. Satan steals them and answers them himself to deceive.

I used to not believe in any of this too, but I asked God to show me, and He has I suggest to anyone, just..ask God how He sees Mary. And have an open heart, wait for Him to show you. Surely it is not wrong to ask Him about this

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If we consult the Word it is right there before us, and we can know the answer that we must pray to no one but Christ. We are expected to obey, or suffer loss.

and I don't disagree with that.. neither does the Catholic Church.. I have already said that we do not believe that Mary is another mediator that's not what 'Mediatrix' means theologically.

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Yes it does.

and intercessor does not equal to mediator.. we are each others' intercessors whenever we pray for one another

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Interceding is the role of the Church here, and Jesus in heaven.

Well, the Catholic Church condemns idolatry, spiritism, and mediums. In fact, that is considered grave sin and something people go to Confession for.

When we ask the Saints to pray for us, we don't "consult" them. We just ask them to pray for us to God, and He decides how to answer. And we never ever use any mediums or spiritists.

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That is denial. The verse talks about speaking to the spirits of the dead. Period. It is included as an occultic act. Bypassing a medium is all the RCC does.

I was once driving past a "mediums" office... and right when I drove by it, I felt soo uncomfortable spiritually, I started praying and making the sign of the cross lol. But when I'm around Mary or Saint stuff at my church, it's never ever like this. All I feel is that we have a family in Heaven praying for us.

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It is an amazing thing what deception does. It's not about feelings. we are called to obey God and avoid sinful practices.

Here's a verse for anyone who thinks that the saints in heaven are dead.
"since we are surrounded by the cloud of witnesses"...

God bless.

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Hebrews 12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up. And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us.


This cloud represents those believers who have GONE BEFORE US. Nowhere does it say we pray to them. No where has ANY apostle ever taught such a dastardly thing.

There is evidence enough to declare that there are great gaps between our cores of belief. Only the Word of God is true and we must live by it and not the extra-biblical teachings of an institution or organization.

what are your views about hell, LJSGM? If you don't mind answering of cousre!

MoNiCa4316 said:

what are your views about hell, LJSGM? If you don't mind answering of cousre!

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I don't believe in "everlasting torment" anymore, it's not found in scriptures. Jesus even says what will happen in Gehenna... your body and soul are destroyed.

If you had to put a label on it, it would more closely resemble anihililationism (even though I've never looked into exactly what that definition holds).

Floatingaxe said:

It is absolutely not.

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..I disagree.. lol

Misdirected prayers go to the powers of the air---Satan. Satan steals them and answers them himself to deceive.

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I wonder if satan could give me a greater awareness of my sins and a desire to repent of them? a kingdom divided against itself can not stand..

if you're praying in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit...and asking Christ's Mother to pray for you...and God decides how to answer.. I don't see that as misdirected prayers. Misdirected prayer would be something like..asking Buddha to heal your friend. Asking Mary to pray to God so that He heals your friend, that's different.

If we consult the Word it is right there before us, and we can know the answer that we must pray to no one but Christ. We are expected to obey, or suffer loss.

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We don't pray TO Saints, we ask them to pray for us.

Where does it say that we can only 'talk to' Christ? All it says is that we shouldnt' worship anyone but Him. Well..all is well, since Catholics only worship God too.

Yes it does.

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How do you know? Have you studied the theology in depth? Have you read what the Church MEANS by "Mediatrix"? I have. I think it is strange to say the least when non Catholics attempt to tell us what our own Church teaches. hmm... you can disagree, but unless you have studied our theology in depth, and read the Pope's encyclicals, the Catechism, etc, you can't say what we teach or don't teach, I'm sorry.

Interceding is the role of the Church here, and Jesus in heaven.

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Yup, and since you're still in Christ when you die, you don't stop being a member of His Body, the Church.

That is denial. The verse talks about speaking to the spirits of the dead. Period. It is included as an occultic act. Bypassing a medium is all the RCC does.

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Actually, what all those verses talk about is necromancy. Asking the dead for information. (check out the passages..)
We don't do this.

Mediums is when someone has a 'connection' to a 'spirit' and you go to them ask them for information. Again, nothing Catholic there..

It is an amazing thing what deception does. It's not about feelings. we are called to obey God and avoid sinful practices.

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I never said it was about feelings. I simply asked God to show me what the truth is, and got an answer.

Hebrews 12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up. And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us.
This cloud represents those believers who have GONE BEFORE US. Nowhere does it say we pray to them. No where has ANY apostle ever taught such a dastardly thing.

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The Bible tells us to stay true to the traditions taught by word OR letter. If you research the early Church, you'll see they asked the Martyrs for their intercession. The early Church martyrs.. I find it difficult to believe that the Church went SO wrong SO soon and God didn't do anything for 1500 years? and did you know that even the Reformers, like Martin Luther, had no problem with Mary?

and the very idea that 'we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses'.. that means that they are with us, they're not dead.

Peace

LJSGM said:

I don't believe in "everlasting torment" anymore, it's not found in scriptures. Jesus even says what will happen in Gehenna... your body and soul are destroyed.

If you had to put a label on it, it would more closely resemble anihililationism (even though I've never looked into exactly what that definition holds).

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I believe otherwise, but I guess we would see one day..hmm.. there are scriptures to support everlasting torment as well, especially in the parables.. again, I guess we will know for sure one day.

LJSGM said:

I don't believe in "everlasting torment" anymore, it's not found in scriptures. Jesus even says what will happen in Gehenna... your body and soul are destroyed.

If you had to put a label on it, it would more closely resemble anihililationism (even though I've never looked into exactly what that definition holds).

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Matthew 25:46
“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”


Revelation 20:10-15
Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Final Judgment

And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.


Revelation 14:9-12
Then a third angel followed them, shouting, “Anyone who worships the beast and his statue or who accepts his mark on the forehead or on the hand must drink the wine of God’s anger. It has been poured full strength into God’s cup of wrath. And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name.”This means that God’s holy people must endure persecution patiently, obeying his commands and maintaining their faith in Jesus.

Floatingaxe said:

Matthew 25:46
“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”


Revelation 20:10-15
Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Final Judgment

And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.

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those are the verses I meant too.

I know what verses LJSGM meant though.