Have you ever wondered?

[FireForEffect]

Here is something I was wondering about. God is a matter of belief for later biblical generations (as for us), but God regularly appeared to his prophets and people(remember that God was present to the whole Hebrew people day and night for 40 years while they wandered in the wilderness!) - when there was no need to "believe" because God was right before their eyes, they chose to argue, rebel and disobey.

This is a strange fact indeed: that major prophets argue with God in the Old Testament and even make suggestions as to how He might conduct Himself vis-a-vis humans. Even more astonishing is that God usually takes their advice! Some characters in the bible lie to God and fool him and he goes along with it, does he not notice or what?? These are things that I wonder about.

 

[Rev. Smith]

Here is something I was wondering about. God is a matter of belief for later biblical generations (as for us), but God regularly appeared to his prophets and people(remember that God was present to the whole Hebrew people day and night for 40 years while they wandered in the wilderness!) - when there was no need to "believe" because God was right before their eyes, they chose to argue, rebel and disobey.

This is a strange fact indeed: that major prophets argue with God in the Old Testament and even make suggestions as to how He might conduct Himself vis-a-vis humans. Even more astonishing is that God usually takes their advice! Some characters in the bible lie to God and fool him and he goes along with it, does he not notice or what?? These are things that I wonder about.

You have hit on one of the major devides between the OT and NT eras, Yahweh, the Living God dwelled with the people, his abode was both the throne of heaven (his footstool being our earth) and the Holy of Holies, the inner chamber of the Temple (before that the Tent of Meeting).

He imposed the Law, and was present in the people to enforce the Law. His Son redeemed us from the Law, and his insturment, the Romans laid waste the Temple because he returned to his abode from before time, the Throne of Heaven.

Personal opinion of mine, its a big Universe - seems silly to suppose we are the only creatures he made in his image in the whole place. With the New Covenant his creation was finished, and he may well be dwelling amongst other creations in some other place, the triune God, the Spirit still dwells with us, inspiring guiding and bringing faith and communion, while HE is working on his next wonder.

And by the way, his clergy and people in these latter days argue with him all the time, and sometimes he listens!

 

[Athanasian Creed]

Here is something I was wondering about. God is a matter of belief for later biblical generations (as for us), but God regularly appeared to his prophets and people(remember that God was present to the whole Hebrew people day and night for 40 years while they wandered in the wilderness!) - when there was no need to "believe" because God was right before their eyes, they chose to argue, rebel and disobey.

This is a strange fact indeed: that major prophets argue with God in the Old Testament and even make suggestions as to how He might conduct Himself vis-a-vis humans. Even more astonishing is that God usually takes their advice! Some characters in the bible lie to God and fool him and he goes along with it, does he not notice or what?? These are things that I wonder about.

Theophanies (appearances of God) were common occurrence in the OT. God appeared to Adam/Eve, Moses, Jacob, and Abraham. As you said, they enjoyed His fellowship during Moses time - heard His voice yet they disobeyed Him time and time again. To me, this only goes to prove the utter depravity of man in his pride to demand his way over God's.

And we see God's interaction with His people in the OT we see God's love and willingness to involve his creation in His dealings - look at Abraham and his interceding for Sodom & Gomorrah. God allows him to basically call the shots - asking if God found X number of righteous He would spare the city. Or the account of Moses asking to see Him and God allowing him to see His glory.

Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend...

Of course all of this pales in comparison to when God became flesh in the Person of Jesus ! To think, man was able to commune face to face with God incarnate - to hear His words, see His wonderous miracles and to observe the greatest display of love ever seen - His dying on the Cross to redeem mankind !

What a mighty God we serve...


Ray

 

[FireForEffect]

Don't forget this quote from the bible:
God said:
"I will hide my face from them, I will see what their fate will be."

 

[TheMainException]

Could you mention where God was "fooled?" I find this interesting...I'm actually not sure that I believe you...but prove it to me...and I'll believe (after trying to solve the mystery as to why). Yeah...sometimes I think that in the OT those Children of God were some darn stupid people...but then there are some things that go on today and I think..."what they heck were they thinking???"

 

[Serapha]

Here is something I was wondering about. God is a matter of belief for later biblical generations (as for us), but God regularly appeared to his prophets and people(remember that God was present to the whole Hebrew people day and night for 40 years while they wandered in the wilderness!) - when there was no need to "believe" because God was right before their eyes, they chose to argue, rebel and disobey.

This is a strange fact indeed: that major prophets argue with God in the Old Testament and even make suggestions as to how He might conduct Himself vis-a-vis humans. Even more astonishing is that God usually takes their advice! Some characters in the bible lie to God and fool him and he goes along with it, does he not notice or what?? These are things that I wonder about.

Hi there!



I am reading an interesting book about the Jewish approach to God, that YHWH is revealed is different ways which are attributes of the One, True God YHVH.... for example, it is Elohim at the creation which is an attribute of YHWH, but it is El Shadai or El in other places, and each "name" of God is actually a different attribute of God. Daniel called on God by the name of Adonai, Abraham and Moses called upon another name of God, but they are all YHVH (YHWH)

that major prophets argue with God in the Old Testament and even make suggestions as to how He might conduct Himself vis-a-vis humans. Even more astonishing is that God usually takes their advice! Some characters in the bible lie to God and fool him and he goes along with it, does he not notice or what??

God has the attribute of omniscience, which means that your statement cannot be true.


~serapha~

 

[FireForEffect]

OK here goes:
God tells Abraham that he and Sarah will have a son and that this son, Isaac, is to be Abraham's primary heir. Abraham and Sarah are childless and very elder at this point in the story, and so he finds it difficult to believe that this could happen:

And Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and he said in his heart, "Will a child be born to a hundred-year-old man? And Sarah, will a ninety-year-old woman give birth?!" (17:17)

Like Lot, even though Abraham has received a communication from the creator of the universe, he questions whether it is correct. And, like Lot, he proposes an alternative. Abraham already has a son, Ishmael, the child of Hagar, and Abraham asks God to accept Ishmael as the covenental heir(17:18). But the deity refuses Abraham's wish. God promises great things for Ishmael but declares that the succession is to be through Isaac. In the end, the decision on the succession is God's, not Abraham's.

In the next episode, this situation arises again a generation later(Genesis 27). Now it is Isaac who is the old man who must pass the mantle. Of his twin sons, Esau and Jacob, he chooses his favorite: Esau(25:28). But Isaac's wife, Rebekah, has other plans. Her favorite son is Jacob, whom she directs to pose as his brother Esau and thus deceive his father into giving him the blessing meant for Esau. The deception works, and Jacob is blessed with the preeminence, as Isaac declares: "Be lord over your brothers" (27:29). In the next chapter, Yahweh speaks to Jacob for the first time and declares fidelity to him. The deity continues speaking to Jacob a number of times after this but never speaks to Esau. What has happened here is that the succession has been determined through the dynamic of intra-family relations, including conflicting parental preferences, sibling rivalry, and human manipulation that is morally questionable at best, and the creator of the universe has accepted the outcome. Who chooses Isaac? God. But who chooses Jacob? Jacob!(and Rebekah!). The human role in the covenental succession has manifestly increased.

 

[Christ Aficionado]

OK here goes:
God tells Abraham that he and Sarah will have a son and that this son, Isaac, is to be Abraham's primary heir. Abraham and Sarah are childless and very elder at this point in the story, and so he finds it difficult to believe that this could happen:

And Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and he said in his heart, "Will a child be born to a hundred-year-old man? And Sarah, will a ninety-year-old woman give birth?!" (17:17)

Like Lot, even though Abraham has received a communication from the creator of the universe, he questions whether it is correct. And, like Lot, he proposes an alternative. Abraham already has a son, Ishmael, the child of Hagar, and Abraham asks God to accept Ishmael as the covenental heir(17:18). But the deity refuses Abraham's wish. God promises great things for Ishmael but declares that the succession is to be through Isaac. In the end, the decision on the succession is God's, not Abraham's.

In the next episode, this situation arises again a generation later(Genesis 27). Now it is Isaac who is the old man who must pass the mantle. Of his twin sons, Esau and Jacob, he chooses his favorite: Esau(25:28). But Isaac's wife, Rebekah, has other plans. Her favorite son is Jacob, whom she directs to pose as his brother Esau and thus deceive his father into giving him the blessing meant for Esau. The deception works, and Jacob is blessed with the preeminence, as Isaac declares: "Be lord over your brothers" (27:29). In the next chapter, Yahweh speaks to Jacob for the first time and declares fidelity to him. The deity continues speaking to Jacob a number of times after this but never speaks to Esau. What has happened here is that the succession has been determined through the dynamic of intra-family relations, including conflicting parental preferences, sibling rivalry, and human manipulation that is morally questionable at best, and the creator of the universe has accepted the outcome. Who chooses Isaac? God. But who chooses Jacob? Jacob!(and Rebekah!). The human role in the covenental succession has manifestly increased.

You are forgetting that Esau sold his birthright to Jacob for the sake of meal of lentil soup and bread.

 

[Endure2]

like the former post said, esau gave up his birth right.
do you not think that God will allow esau free-will to choose his own path?
he most certainly does.

and how do we know what the original plan of God was? maybe God knew jacob and esau from their youth and forsaw character traits and diffrences and could forsee actions of each child and decided to change the way things where done on earth so that his perfect plan could come to fruition, by allowing what happened to happen?

but in the end,
there is much we will never know becuase it simply doesnt concern us. and God will not explain himself to us just becuase we demand an answer out of arrogance. he will let the arrogant die with all his questions.

we simply have to remember what God has said in his word, that he is all knowing, he is in control, that HE is the one who decides how far up on the beach the tide will flow, he takes men down and raises men up, and he is in control and he will cause his plan to be established.
we cannot begin to doubt or question God simply becuase their are things we dont understand, we have to trust and fear as that is the BEGINNING of knowledge, or we are not his servants anyway.
we have to trust that he is what he said he is, and if we dont, we accuse him and take sides with his enemy, and thus he doesnt owe us an explanation or anything else and he will never give us one.
we will die thinking he was wrong and God wont miss us.

hehe, God doesnt have insecurities.

 

[Mary_Magdalene]

Theophanies (appearances of God) were common occurrence in the OT. God appeared to Adam/Eve, Moses, Jacob, and Abraham. As you said, they enjoyed His fellowship during Moses time - heard His voice yet they disobeyed Him time and time again. To me, this only goes to prove the utter depravity of man in his pride to demand his way over God's.

And we see God's interaction with His people in the OT we see God's love and willingness to involve his creation in His dealings - look at Abraham and his interceding for Sodom & Gomorrah. God allows him to basically call the shots - asking if God found X number of righteous He would spare the city. Or the account of Moses asking to see Him and God allowing him to see His glory.

Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend...

Of course all of this pales in comparison to when God became flesh in the Person of Jesus ! To think, man was able to commune face to face with God incarnate - to hear His words, see His wonderous miracles and to observe the greatest display of love ever seen - His dying on the Cross to redeem mankind !

What a mighty God we serve...


Ray

yes ray! then i think a step further.... God sent the Holy Spirit to dwell IN us! God is mighty!!!

 

[BlestVessel]

maybe God knew jacob and esau from their youth and forsaw character traits and diffrences and could forsee actions of each child and decided to change the way things where done on earth so that his perfect plan could come to fruition, by allowing what happened to happen?

MAYBE? I'd go with definitely, love.
I agree with endure.
Fire, you're really undermining God here.
You've limited Him SO VASTLY in your human little mind (as we all do without meaning to), but you have to understand: He is far far beyond our small understanding. He knew the end of the earth before He constructed it by His Word. He also gave us dominion over the earth, which means we choose, but ultimately He is in control. He allows us to suffer consequences of our decisions when we don't choose His will. We're told to pray "Your will be done, Your kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven" because His will ISN'T done here. He has given us the power of life and death in our words [proverbs] and given us authority to tread over serpents and scorpions, move mountains and cast them into the sea by faith. Therefore, a wise man will ask that His will be done, being willing to base their every action on His purposes, because that is all that is good, all that has meaning, purpose, significance.

We cannot even begin to know Him until we pursue to live for Him. Dying to our perceptions, to what we do or don't know, to what we want and who we think we are, and electing to surrender all of that as a sacrifice to God, putting our lives on the alter, is how it begins. Then we are baptised in water to show that we are determined to die to ourselves daily and live only for Him. Without that, we are spiritually dead and know nothing of spiritual things. We may read His Word and understand the stories and statements, but there is a depth to it that cannot be seen with the naked eye. His Spirit dwelling in us is the only way to truly BEGIN to know God, for He reveals the truth of who He is to those who are in Him. That is how we learn His heart, His principles behind the Word. Because He is the Living Word. And He desires great things for you. But die to what you think you know and discover what awaits.

Peace.
April

 

[deg]

FireForEffect:

God has not ceased to show himself to His people. Stephen was priveledged to such an encounter, so was Paul. John also. I'm sure many others pure in heart have been able to pass into certain realms of spirit where the Lord revealed His Glory. You're correct, many do not get to see the flame that surrounds and permeates every bush on earth, but those who do see take off their shoes.

Be on the lookout for barefooted Christians!