Have you ever seen a TE claim that Creationists are not saved because of Creationism?

[HypnoToad]

Unfortunately YECs seem to think verse 25 And God made the beasts of the earth,
somehow cancels out verse 24 And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures..."
But I will let you into a little secret. They are both true. YECs have to choose v25 over v24,

That's just false. YEC's do not pick one verse over the other, nor do we think 24 is in any way "canceled out". God "created" man in ch.1, ch.2 says man was made "out of the ground". There's no reason to think there's anything contradictory about that, so there's no reason to claim we see anything contradictory when the same thing is said about animals.

 

[ClayDS1130]

The reason some YECs question the salvation of TEs because their understanding of sin is worrisome. The Bible says that sin and death began with Adam, but according to TE death and evil were around for billions of years in the world God created "very good."

 

[theIdi0t]

The reason some YECs question the salvation of TEs because their understanding of sin is worrisome. The Bible says that sin and death began with Adam, but according to TE death and evil were around for billions of years in the world God created "very good."

Because TE's understand when Paul speaks about "death" he is speaking of a spiritual death, just like he does in much of his letters: "for the wages of sin is death". He is not speaking of physical death but a spiritual death.

He is using Adam and Eve to elaborate this point, but he is not introducing something not found in the Gospels.

When I seek eternal life I do not seek it for my bones, or my body, or my sinful flesh, I seek it for my soul departed from these things.

 

[Willtor]

Exactly, theIdi0t.

If Christ saves us from death in Adam but Adam's death is physical, should we expect not to die physically? Again, if physical death is the point of the fall account and all of the Apostles physically died wouldn't that pretty conclusively prove to be a Biblical fallacy?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by archaeologist
so the answer is for all those who come after the disciples is---- faith

Faith can indeed "lift mountains".

Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say, then, `The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in;' right! 20 by unbelief they were broken off, and thou hast stood by Faith; be not high-minded, but be fearing; 21 for if God the natural branches did not spare--lest perhaps He also shall not spare thee.

Matthew 21:21 And Jesus answering said to them, "Verily I say to you, If ye may have Faith, and may not doubt, not only this of the fig-tree shall ye do, but even to the mountain, this,ye may say, 'Be lifted up and be cast into the Sea', it shall come to pass";

Revelation 8:8 And the second messenger did sound, and as it were a great Mountain with fire burning was cast into the Sea, and the third of the sea became blood,

 

[busterdog]

The reason some YECs question the salvation of TEs because their understanding of sin is worrisome. The Bible says that sin and death began with Adam, but according to TE death and evil were around for billions of years in the world God created "very good."

I was speaking with a very charismatic brother about six months ago. We were speaking about the giftts of the spirit. He questioned my salvation -- ie, questioned it, not judged it. It never occurred to me to be offended. I question his clarity on some of the scripture about salvation. But, he was really trying to help me, and regardless of whether he was prudent in his theological approach, it just kind of struck me that it was an appropriate thing for him to do as a brother.

Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

If fear is not completely incompatible with salvation, there is room for legitimate questions.

That is not license to question whomever you wish whenever you wish. More often than not, it might be better to let the TEs question their own. Giving offense is also not incompatible with the Gospel, but that also isn't
license to be offensive.

 

[archaeologist]

If Christ saves us from death in Adam but Adam's death is physical, should we expect not to die physically?

not at all. your limited understanding undermines you here.

Because TE's understand when Paul speaks about "death" he is speaking of a spiritual death, just like he does in much of his letters: "for the wages of sin is death". He is not speaking of physical death but a spiritual death.

i would disagree. from mathew henry:

His inference hence is, Therefore there was a
law; for​

sin is not imputed where there is no law. Original sin is a want of
conformity to, and actual sin is a transgression of, the law of God:
therefore all were under some law. His proof of it is, Death reigned from
Adam to Moses, v. 14. It is certain that death could not have reigned if sin
had not set up the throne for him. This proves that sin was in the world
before the law, and original sin, for death reigned over those that had not
sinned any actual sin, that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's
transgression, never sinned in their own persons as Adam did — which is
to be understood of infants, that were never guilty of actual sin, and yet
died, because Adam's sin was imputed to them. This reign of death seems
especially to refer to those violent and extraordinary judgments which
were long before Moses, as the deluge and the destruction of Sodom,
which involved infants. It is a great proof of original sin that little
children, who were never guilty of any actual transgression, are yet liable
to very terrible diseases, casualties, and deaths, which could by no means
be reconciled with the justice and righteousness of God if they were not​

chargeable with guilt.

from Beet's commentary:

This argument is Paul’s proof of the teaching in​

<450512>Romans 5:12 that all
men die because Adam sinned. It is true that all have sinned and that death
is the penalty of sin prescribed to Adam in Paradise and afterwards in the
Law given to Israel. But the universal reign of death long before Moses
cannot be an infliction of the penalty threatened to him. It must therefore be
an infliction on Adam’s children of the penalty laid upon him (<010319>Genesis
3:19) for his first transgression.
The above argument is not invalidated by the law written in the heart, by
which, as we read in <450214>Romans 2:14, 15, they who have not received the
Mosaic Law will be judged and punished. For this law belongs to the inner
and unseen world, and in that unseen world its penalty will be inflicted. The
punishment of bodily death belongs to the outer and visible world; and
therefore cannot be inflicted in fulfilment of a law written only within.
A similar argument may be drawn from the death of infants. Upon them,
though innocent of actual sin, the punishment of death is inflicted. This
proves that they come into the world sharing the punishment, and therefore
in effect the sin, of Adam. But it suited Paul better to use an argument
which keeps the Law before his readers. The case of infants confirms the
conclusion at which, by another path, Paul arrived.
Notice that to Paul death is essentially and always the penalty of sin. He
sees men die; and inquires for whose sin the penalty is inflicted. His view is​

141​

confirmed by the fact that both in Paradise and at Sinai God threatened to
punish sin by death, and thus set it apart from all natural processes as a​

mark of His anger.

from adam clarke:

And death by sin​

​

​

​

— Natural evil is evidently the effect of moral evil; if
man had never sinned, he had never suffered. Dust thou art, and unto dust
shalt thou return, was never spoken till after Adam had eaten the​

forbidden fruit.

you notice that God's curse brought in physical death after adam had sinned. which some people here seemtoignore so they can justify their thinking.

 

[Melethiel]

When I seek eternal life I do not seek it for my bones, or my body, or my sinful flesh, I seek it for my soul departed from these things.

I would be careful following this line of thinking...it ventures precariously close to Gnosticism.
We do, after all, wait for the resurrection of the flesh, and Christ, in the Incarnation, redeemed the physical as well as the spiritual.

 

[shernren]

I was speaking with a very charismatic brother about six months ago. We were speaking about the giftts of the spirit. He questioned my salvation -- ie, questioned it, not judged it. It never occurred to me to be offended. I question his clarity on some of the scripture about salvation. But, he was really trying to help me, and regardless of whether he was prudent in his theological approach, it just kind of struck me that it was an appropriate thing for him to do as a brother.

Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

If fear is not completely incompatible with salvation, there is room for legitimate questions.

That is not license to question whomever you wish whenever you wish. More often than not, it might be better to let the TEs question their own. Giving offense is also not incompatible with the Gospel, but that also isn't
license to be offensive.

Good grief! The Arminians are invading!

Kidding. Isn't it interesting though? We are saved by grace through faith, not that anyone may boast but that in all God may be glorified. This both means that there is no room for anyone to question my salvation, and no room for me to boast about it either as if it was something I did or earned or deserved. Call me a non-Christian? Well - that, but for the grace of God, I indeed would've been.

Having said that, I think it's quite illegitimate for people to question the salvation of evolutionists for a very different reason - if someone is sincerely considering the issue of origins and the relation of science to Scripture, that's already a massive enough bugbear in itself, what with the recent press about evolution and atheism and all that. Compounding that with "I might go to hell?" stuff is only going to cloud the brain infinitely more. People thinking through these things need clear minds, not threats to their faith.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I would be careful following this line of thinking...it ventures precariously close to Gnosticism.
We do, after all, wait for the resurrection of the flesh, and Christ, in the Incarnation, redeemed the physical as well as the spiritual.

Yes, the Muslims also await the return of Him, but to turn the World to the True relgion of Islam.
We have a bet going on whether Muhammad's Christ or our Christ returns first. LOL

 

[archaeologist]

Having said that, I think it's quite illegitimate for people to question the salvation of evolutionists for a very different reason - if someone is sincerely considering the issue of origins and the relation of science to Scripture, that's already a massive enough bugbear in itself, what with the recent press about evolution and atheism and all that

not at all. the two cases are vastly different as busterdog's example involves something known to be of God--the gifts of the Spirit--whereas, evolution is not of God and is a deception meant to lead people astray

stop trying to justify your beliefs using apples when you have a cart load of oranges.

Compounding that with "I might go to hell?" stuff is only going to cloud the brain infinitely more. People thinking through these things need clear minds, not threats to their faith.

read I John carefully

 

[Melethiel]

Yes, the Muslims also await the return of Him, but to turn the World to the True relgion of Islam.
We have a bet going on whether Muhammad's Christ or our Christ returns first. LOL

What does this have to do with anything?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What does this have to do with anything?

Well, I wasn't sure if others here knew of the Muslims belief of Christ returning also.
The Jews on the other hand have no concept of their Messiah coming twice in their religion. I just thought it was interesting.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Genesis 5:5 And they are becoming all of days of Adam which he lives, nine hundreds year and-thirty year and he is dying [1 corin 15:22].

1 Corinthians 15:22 For just as in the Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all shall be being made alive.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/23_genesis_1.html

When we read Genesis chapter one we usually see only one story there, but there are actually many stories. Why don't we see these multiple stories? Because we read the Hebrew Bible from a Modern Western thinkers point of view and not from an Ancient Eastern thinkers such as the Hebrews who wrote it. The Hebrews style of writing is prolific with a style of poetry unfamiliar to most readers of the Bible. This poetry is nothing like the poetry we are used to reading today and therefore it is invisible to us.

 

[Assyrian]

That's just false. YEC's do not pick one verse over the other, nor do we think 24 is in any way "canceled out".

Well I have had verse 25 quoted at me often enough as if it contradicted what we are told in verse 24, that God commanded the earth to produce living creatures. That couldn't possibly mean the earth produced life. So they quote verse 25. Verse 24 and 25 describe both the earth producing life in all its different species, and it tells us it was at God's command and that this was God's work. YECs cannot handle the idea that life may have been produced by the earth.

God "created" man in ch.1, ch.2 says man was made "out of the ground". There's no reason to think there's anything contradictory about that, so there's no reason to claim we see anything contradictory when the same thing is said about animals.

I understand you do not have a difficulty between Gen 1:25 and Gen 2. But it is Gen 1:24 and 1:25 that YECs struggle with.

There is a difference between God made animals out of earth and the earth produced animals. In the second it is the earth that does the producing, just as science is discovering.

 

[Assyrian]

not at all. the two cases are vastly different as busterdog's example involves something known to be of God--the gifts of the Spirit--whereas, evolution is not of God and is a deception meant to lead people astray

stop trying to justify your beliefs using apples when you have a cart load of oranges.

Oddly enough, there have are plenty of people who say that that speaking in tongues is of the devil and a deception meant to lead people astray too. So not so different after all.

 

[theIdi0t]

I would be careful following this line of thinking...it ventures precariously close to Gnosticism.
We do, after all, wait for the resurrection of the flesh, and Christ, in the Incarnation, redeemed the physical as well as the spiritual.

1 Peter 1:9

as you attain the goal of (your) faith, the salvation of your souls.

1 Corinthians 15:

There are both heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the brightness of the heavenly is one kind and that of the earthly another.

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

I seek salvation for my soul, I don't seek salvation for my natural body. I seek it for my spiritual body.

 

[Melethiel]

"Soul" is not equivalent to "spiritual body."
The hope of Christians is the resurrection of the dead - of the flesh as well as the spirit.

 

[theIdi0t]

i would disagree. from mathew henry:

from Beet's commentary:

from adam clarke:

you notice that God's curse brought in physical death after adam had sinned. which some people here seemtoignore so they can justify their thinking.

Uhm, so your using man's commentary to justify your position? I really don't care for any of it. Just because these men "think" this is what it means, does not make it so.

Even if you return to the Genesis account, it says: "Therefore, he must not be allowed to put out his hand to take fruit from the tree of life also, and thus eat of it and live forever."

Nothing in the text says that Adam and Eve were immortal from conception, God just removed from them the fruit that provided eternal life. Nothing in the Bible tells us that animals were to live immortally either. So, this notion that physical death or natural death, is what Paul is speaking about is unfounded.

We do know that Paul makes distinctions between the natural body and the spiritual body as he does in 1 Corinthians 15, and we also know that he uses Death to refer to spiritual death (hell) as well, as he does in the "wages of sin is death", I assume you don't think that sinners just go to the grave and that's it, now do you?

You're saying that he's using "Death" in a different way than he does in other passages, but yet you have provided nothing but useless commentary to justify your point. So perhaps you should try again?

 

[theIdi0t]

"Soul" is not equivalent to "spiritual body."
The hope of Christians is the resurrection of the dead - of the flesh as well as the spirit.

Well, perhaps they are two different things. But my point is made nonetheless, but I'll continue on with more scripture.

1 Corinthians 15:50

This I declare, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

John 6:63

The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life

What I said originally:

"When I seek eternal life I do not seek it for my bones, or my body, or my sinful flesh, I seek it for my soul departed from these things."

(perhaps I should have said spirit?)

Why would I seek to save my flesh and blood, when John says it counts for nothing and when Paul says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God?

 

[zeke37]

"Soul" is not equivalent to "spiritual body."
The hope of Christians is the resurrection of the dead - of the flesh as well as the spirit.

That may be a popular understanding, but none the less it is incorrect.

The resurrection is not of flesh and bone...skeletons coming out of the graves.....

it is of the spiritual body (as in angelic body, very physical but not flesh and blood) being on earth, walking, living on earth.

1Cor15 makes this quite clear...when Christ gets here, there can be no flesh. ALL is transformed into spirit beings...animals, and all the good and bad souls alive at His 7th trump return to Gather His to Him.

in His service
c