I think I received a Catholic baptism when I was a baby, but I have received an immersion baptism now.
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Please read my words carefully. Baptism is not about obedience or disobedience. Jesus did not command us to be baptized.
He commissioned the church to go and make disciples. Two components of disciple-making are baptizing those disciples and teaching those disciples. But there is no command to be baptized.
Matthew 28:20 is not a command. Jesus is sending the apostles (and by extension, the Church) to make disciples.
"teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you"
How can this be twisted into placing an obligation on people to be baptized? Where did Jesus make such a command?
37 Now when they heard this, they were acutely distressed and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “What should we do, brothers?” 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far away, as many as the Lord our God will call to himself.” 40 With many other words he testified and exhorted them saying, “Save yourselves from this perverse generation!” 41 So those who accepted his message were baptized,.....-
Originally posted by holyrokker
You, and a couple of other individuals, claim that Jesus gave such a command in Matthew 28:18-20, but that passage (nor any other passage in the entire Bible) gives a command from Jesus to be baptized.
So, making disciples is commanded but baptizing them and teaching them is not? I mean there's the command, which I assume we must obey, but the very actions that will carry out and fulfill that command are not themselves commands? How exactly are we supposed to fulfill the command then if were not commanded to fulfill the command? Sorry, it's not making much sense to me that Jesus would command us do to something then tell us how to do that, but then turn around a boldly state that that which we do to fulfill the command is not a command.But this is not a command to be baptized, and shouldn't be taken as such.
The "command" is to make disciples. Two aspects of this activity are baptizing the disciples and teaching them to observe His commands.
Originally Posted by holyrokker
Please read my words carefully. Baptism is not about obedience or disobedience. Jesus did not command us to be baptized.
He commissioned the church to go and make disciples..[( and baptize them)-you omitted that partholyroker.] .Two components of disciple-making are baptizing those disciples and teaching those disciples. But there is no command to be baptized.
Matthew 28:20 is not a command. Jesus is sending the apostles (and by extension, the Church) to make disciples.
"teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you"
How can this be twisted into placing an obligation on people to be baptized? Where did Jesus make such a command?
----------What word play? You, or someone else in this thread, claimed that Christians must be baptized out of obedience to Christ's command; yet no one has shown that Jesus actually commanded that.
You, and a couple of other individuals, claim that Jesus gave such a command in Matthew 28:18-20, but that passage (nor any other passage in the entire Bible) gives a command from Jesus to be baptized.
You quoted Acts 2:38, but that also is neither a command, nor is it from Jesus. It is part of Peter's exhortation to the crowds.
It seems to me that you are taking church tradition, and turning it into a Biblical mandate.
..and againas an act of obedience by faith
the word command is not used .water baptism is also a conscious act of obedience by faith and a public declaration of that faith in the Lord Jesus
So, making disciples is commanded but baptizing them and teaching them is not? I mean there's the command, which I assume we must obey, but the very actions that will carry out and fulfill that command are not themselves commands? How exactly are we supposed to fulfill the command then if were not commanded to fulfill the command? Sorry, it's not making much sense to me that Jesus would command us do to something then tell us how to do that, but then turn around a boldly state that that which we do to fulfill the command is not a command.
My objection is making baptism an obligation; a command. Jesus did NOT make it a command.
I know, I know: Jesus said "teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you" But WHERE is the command to be baptized? It is not ANYWHERE in the Bible. It is not in the Matthew 28 text. It is not in Peter's exhortation in Acts chapter two. It is not in Paul's epistles.
The Church is commissioned to make disciples (not the same thing as a command). PART of that disciple-making process is baptising those disciples. (I feel like I'm just repeating myself over and over.)
Baptism is not a matter obedience to Christ.
A person who is baptized is no more obedient than someone who isn't.
A person who is not baptized is no less obedient than someone who is.
Once again - there is no command to be baptized; so there is no obedience or disobedience related to baptism.
I have been baptized, and I have baptized others. I have no objection to baptism. My objection is to making baptism an obligation. To do so contradicts the Gospel.
What word play? You, or someone else in this thread, claimed that Christians must be baptized out of obedience to Christ's command; yet no one has shown that Jesus actually commanded that.
You, and a couple of other individuals, claim that Jesus gave such a command in Matthew 28:18-20, but that passage (nor any other passage in the entire Bible) gives a command from Jesus to be baptized.
You quoted Acts 2:38, but that also is neither a command, nor is it from Jesus. It is part of Peter's exhortation to the crowds.
It seems to me that you are taking church tradition, and turning it into a Biblical mandate.
I'm not making that argument.Why in the world are you arguing that Jesus telling us to baptize is not a command. What difference does it make what you call it? Jesus said do it so we do it. Your argument seems totally irrelevant.
I'm not making that argument.
Jesus left the Church instructions to (among other things) baptize disciples.
But that is different from what many have claimed, that it is an act of obedience to be baptized.
Am I the only person who sees the distinction?
It is our responsibility to carry on the ordinance of baptism, but no one is under the obligation to be baptized.
I don't think you understand anything that I've been saying throughout this thread. If you did, you wouldn't have made those comments.Apparently you are the only one to hold that opinion. While baptism is not required for salvation it is an act of loving obedience. Why would you not want to be baptized? Have you been baptized? If not, why not? Yours seems like a silly argument.
I don't think you understand anything that I've been saying throughout this thread. If you did, you wouldn't have made those comments.
I believe baptism shows the world that we're identified with Christ. To say that you have to be baptised to be saved means that we're DOING some work to be saved. There is nothing we can do to work for our salvation. We are saved by grace, belief in the Lord Jesus Christ.
So, if we don't believe can we be saved? If not, then we have to do something to be saved, don't we?I believe baptism shows the world that we're identified with Christ. To say that you have to be baptised to be saved means that we're DOING some work to be saved. There is nothing we can do to work for our salvation. We are saved by grace, belief in the Lord Jesus Christ.
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