Have we become too 'nice'?

[Abiel]

Reference checks??!!!!


So much for whosoever will may come.

So what did these references seek to discover?

If Booth had done that the Army would never have gotten past it's first 12 months.

I imagine if you got a reference that said, itinerent street fighter with many convictions for violence and drunkeness.

Wonder how that would be received.

Captain Gyspy Smith who declared war in my home town of Hull (Abiel might have heard of him) would have gotten that on his reference.

Since when did we turn into a country club?

What's next?

Black balling by the committee.

Have we become too 'nice' too 'middle class' perhaps? Are we anything more than a glorified musical society with a charitable wing?

 

[Andy Broadley]

Have we become too 'nice' too 'middle class' perhaps? Are we anything more than a glorified musical society with a charitable wing?

Yes, yes and no.

Yes we have become too nice.

Yes we are getting too middle class and respectable.

No. We are not a glorified musical society, but we are rapidly become the Salvation Army Country Club.

Where did the fire in the belly go?

What happenned to whosoever will may come?

 

[Abiel]

They come on Thursdays to our coffee morning. Sad but true

 

[Andy Broadley]

It's something that has been going on for years but when it was mentioned in the soldiership thread that there was at least on corps who required people to become adherents first and get reference checks before soldiership would be approved, it really hit home at me.

What is happenning to us.

Why and when when did we lose all relevence and contact with the very people that God, via general Booth, formed the Army for in the first place.

 

[Andy Broadley]

They come on Thursdays to our coffee morning. Sad but true

Exactly.

It's time the sleeping giant got a wake up call.

In fact more than a wake up[ call, a kick in the pants.

An inability to relate to thoser in society who are disenfrachised (not bad for 7.44am), and forgotten, is what caused the Army to come into being in the first place.

Once we lose that, we are on borrowed time as a church. And we have all but lost it. We have become as bad as all the churches who wouldn't accept the people Booth was converting.

We have top wake up and smell; the coffee here. It's not yet too late for us, but it will be soon.

 

[Andy Broadley]

So lets forget about our nicely furnished and designed halls.

Forget about being all cosy and safe.

And lets get back to some basic Salvationism.

The people we need to be getting too are not gonna come to us, and we have to wake up and realise that.

We have to go to them. And when they knock us back, we have to keep going back to them. Again and again and again.

And it will be unpleasent, it will be hard work. It might even be dangerous.

But if the Army is going to survive, it's the only way.

 

[Andy Broadley]

<H1 style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; MARGIN: 0px">“While women weep, as they do now, I'll fight; while children go hungry, as they do now I'll fight; while men go to prison, in and out, in and out, as they do now, I'll fight; while there is a drunkard left, while there is a poor lost girl upon the streets, while there remains one dark soul without the light of God, I'll fight, I'll fight to the very end!”

</H1>

And don't tell me world has changed. It hasn't chnaged enough to make this noit relevent.

Women still weep.
Children still go hungry
Men still go to prison, come out and reoffend.
There are still kids on the streets.
There are still many many people with alcohol and drug problems
The are still homeless people.
There is still crime
There is still brokeness

Everything general Booth said back then applies today

Everything.

And if we don't meet that need, you know what will happen? I'll let General Booth tell you.

“We must wake ourselves up! Or somebody else will take our place, and bear our cross, and thereby rob us of our crown.”

 

[Andy Broadley]

IMHO there is such a rush these days to get rid of the uniform, the band, call our officers pastors, and basically become an anonymous church, that we throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

We are not supposed to be an anonymous little church who never ruffle any feathers.

We are the origional in-your-face church. Ruffling feathers is what w are not only good at but built upon.

If you want afeel good factor for doing some good works and a nice bit of social interaction, then you're in the wrong place. Try the rotary club.

We got a war to fight and it's not going to be pretty.

 

[Abiel]

Our problem is, I think that we value our reputation more than the gospel.

 

[Andy Broadley]

Our problem is, I think that we value our reputation more than the gospel.

The Gospel?

Not allowed to mention that anymore.

Might offend someone, and that would never do.

I agree Skipper. We have got ourselves into a comfort zone where we are living off a reputation gained in the past.

We are scared of upsetting or ofending anyone by taking our message to the streets unless we do it in a very quiet, unobtrusive way.

 

[something from the fridge]

we've been having a few discussions in our mens groups about things in general. one of these things is what we do.

we often talk about whether we are becoming too nice and not enough in peoples faces.

i've also talked to a non christian "associate" in the car cruising scene up here.

i'm training up as a chaplain for motorsport in darwin (where i live) this involves me making connections
with the guys (and girls) at the motorsport and in the cruising scene and taking it from there.

there is another group in town that rock up to one of the hang outs and start preaching in your face sermons at the people gathered there. then they leave.

back to my "associate" - he said that he likes my way better and respects what i'm doing. my goal is to be there for them for the long haul.

street preaching like this other group is doing, does not make a connection with the guys hanging at the servo. they are there to chew the fat. so i chew it with them, and they know what i do and that i go to church. i need to build on that. that is how i think we reach this particular crowd.

 

[elm0]

Have we become too 'nice' too 'middle class' perhaps? Are we anything more than a glorified musical society with a charitable wing?

We need to be very careful about what words we use, and how we use them. When we start using words like 'nice' and 'middle class' as insults, we can instantly lose a lot of people who may actually agree with us.

A lot of people tell me that I'm a "really nice guy", and until now, I thought they were complimenting me. I consider most of the people at my corps to be nice people too. What's wrong with being nice?

What exactly do you mean by 'middle class', and what is wrong with being that?

I think I know what you're trying to say Abiel, but not sure I liked your choice of words is all. I tend to say that we've become comfortable. We've got our church (building), and we've got our Bible group, and we've got our fellowship times, and we've got other people running our soup kitchen and our homeless shelter.

"Glorified musical society". It may well describe some corps, but there are some around (in Australia at least) that don't have a focus on music, many that don't even have a 'band' in the traditional Army sense of the word.

 

[elm0]

Something from the fridge, I think you've hit the nail on the head. IMO, there's more than one way to be 'in your face'. Sure, the way those other people are going about it, preaching at people is pretty much what most people would think of as 'in your face'. But, I'd see your just being there, and hanging out with them as being more 'in your face', or more correctly 'in front of their faces'. They see you for longer, they get to know you, hopefully to respect you, and your presence, and your actions are probably doing a far better job of preaching than those other people are doing using words.

 

[TheDag]

It's something that has been going on for years but when it was mentioned in the soldiership thread that there was at least on corps who required people to become adherents first and get reference checks before soldiership would be approved, it really hit home at me.

What is happenning to us.

Why and when when did we lose all relevence and contact with the very people that God, via general Booth, formed the Army for in the first place.

As long as you also remember times change and there can be reasons to do these checks on people that are valid reasons. It shouldn't mean we turn away people though.

 

[TheDag]

Something from the fridge, I think you've hit the nail on the head. IMO, there's more than one way to be 'in your face'. Sure, the way those other people are going about it, preaching at people is pretty much what most people would think of as 'in your face'. But, I'd see your just being there, and hanging out with them as being more 'in your face', or more correctly 'in front of their faces'. They see you for longer, they get to know you, hopefully to respect you, and your presence, and your actions are probably doing a far better job of preaching than those other people are doing using words.

I had a friend who said he wasn't interested in christianity. I just spent time with him. One week at the pub he said he respected me because I didn't try to ram the gospel down his throat and then he started asking me questions which allowed me to tell the gospel message. All from someone who said they wearn't interested. I find developing relationships with people opens them up to the message where in the past big open air meetings were the way to go. Different generations respond in different ways and we need to adapt depending on which particular generation we are trying to reach.

 

[Andy Broadley]

we've been having a few discussions in our mens groups about things in general. one of these things is what we do.

we often talk about whether we are becoming too nice and not enough in peoples faces.

i've also talked to a non christian "associate" in the car cruising scene up here.

i'm training up as a chaplain for motorsport in darwin (where i live) this involves me making connections
with the guys (and girls) at the motorsport and in the cruising scene and taking it from there.

there is another group in town that rock up to one of the hang outs and start preaching in your face sermons at the people gathered there. then they leave.

back to my "associate" - he said that he likes my way better and respects what i'm doing. my goal is to be there for them for the long haul.

street preaching like this other group is doing, does not make a connection with the guys hanging at the servo. they are there to chew the fat. so i chew it with them, and they know what i do and that i go to church. i need to build on that. that is how i think we reach this particular crowd.

I'm not denying for a second that living a quality life that reflects our faith shouldn't be an integral part of our warfare, becuase it certainly should. In fact it's what everything else is built upon.

But on it's own, it will not produce the results that are needed.

Nor am I saying that we should turn up, preach in your face sermons, then vanish.

What we should do is turn up, preach in your face sermons, then stick around top follow it up. Hit and run Christianity isn't whats needed here.

To use a phrase that Joseph Goebels coined, what we need is total warfare.

We have to take this seriously. We are fighting a war against sin, and we are losing.

 

[Andy Broadley]

We need to be very careful about what words we use, and how we use them. When we start using words like 'nice' and 'middle class' as insults, we can instantly lose a lot of people who may actually agree with us.

A lot of people tell me that I'm a "really nice guy", and until now, I thought they were complimenting me. I consider most of the people at my corps to be nice people too. What's wrong with being nice?

What exactly do you mean by 'middle class', and what is wrong with being that?

Sorry Elmo, but it's being careful what words we use that is a big part of the problem. We are that afraid of upsetting people these days that we can't get our message accross. I have no doubts whatsoever about you being a nice guy. What Abiel was asking was in regard to the Army as a church.

We are too respectable and 'nice' these days. We have lost touch with the very people in socirty who we should be most in touch with.

God and General Booth did not raise up this great Army to be a respectable middle class church. There are plenty of those already. We are supposed to be the church that loves and welcomes everyone, and especially those whom the middle class churches don't want becuase it's bad for their image and infinges on their comfort zone.

I think I know what you're trying to say Abiel, but not sure I liked your choice of words is all. I tend to say that we've become comfortable. We've got our church (building), and we've got our Bible group, and we've got our fellowship times, and we've got other people running our soup kitchen and our homeless shelter.

I've got no problem with non salvationist volunteers or paid staff running things like soup kitchens and homeless shelters, although it would be nice if we hauled ourselves out of our halls to help more often.

But as soldiers of the Salvation Army we are the front line troops in this war.

And we aint fighting.

Why?

 

[Andy Broadley]

As long as you also remember times change and there can be reasons to do these checks on people that are valid reasons. It shouldn't mean we turn away people though.

I would be very interested indeed to hear those reasons. What grounds do we have for doing reference checks on people who wish to become soldiers.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

I wonder where the Christian church would be now if Jesus had said to James and John

"Look guys, I want to ask you to come follow me, but I need to run a few reference checks first, just to make sure you are suitable."

Or, afer St Paul had been blinded on the road, God had told him to go see that guy in Damascus, but make sure he had some references to take with him first.

Ok. I can buy the arguement that checks need to be made when people are going to be working with vulnerable people such as children, whether as uniformed soldiwers or not.

When I was doing Youth Club last year I had checks done. It's a legal requirement.

I can see no valid reasons for reference checks prior to soldiership. Is it not a fear that some people might 'lower the tone'

 

[Abiel]

The question I ask is 'what would happen if one of our local ne'er-do-wells were to wander into our hall on a Sunday morning.'

 

[Andy Broadley]

General Booth Enters Into Heaven

Booth led boldly with his big bass drum
(Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?)
The Saints smiled gravely and they said, "He's come,"
(Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?)

Walking lepers followed rank on rank,
Lurching bravos from the ditches dank
Drabs the alleyways and drug fiends pale
Minds still passion ridden, soul flowers frail:
Vermin eaten saints with moldy breath,
Unwashed legions with the ways of Death
(Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?)

Ev'ry slum had sent its half a score
The world round over. (Booth had groaned for more).
Ev'ry banner that the wide world flies
Bloomed with glory and transcendent dyes,
Big voiced lassies made their banjoes bang,
Tranced, fanatical they shrieked and sang;
"Are you? Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?"

Hallelulah! It was queer to see
Bull necked convicts with that land made free.
Loons with trumpets a blare, blare, blare,
On, on, upward thro' the golden air!
(Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?)

Booth died blind and still by Faith he trod,
Eyes still dazzled by the ways of God!
Booth led boldly and he look'd the chief
Eagle countenance in sharp relief,
Beard a-flying, air of high command
Unabated in that holy land.

Jesus came from the court house door,
Stretched his hands above the passing poor.
Booth saw not, but led his queer ones
Round and round the mighty courthouse square.
Yet! in an instant all that blear review
Marched on spotless, clad in raiment new.

The lame were straightened, withered limbs uncurled,
And blind eyes opened on a new, sweet world.
Drabs and vixens in a flash made whole!
Gone was the weasel head, the snout, the jowel
Sages and sibyls now, and athletes clean,
Rulers of empires and of forests green!
The hosts were sandall'd and their wings were fire!
(Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?)

But their noise play'd havoc with the angel choir,
(Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?)
Oh shout Salvation!
It was good to see Kings and Princes by the Lamb set free.
The banjos rattled and the tambourines
Jingling jingl'd in the hands of Queens.

And when Booth halted by the curb for prayer
He saw his Master thro' the flag fill'd air.
Christ came gently with a robe and crown
For Booth the soldier, while the throng knelt down.
He saw King Jesus; they were face to face,
And he knelt a-weeping in that holy place.
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?
​