Have the rules of courtship changed over the years?

Merry Jerry

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Merry Jerry

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All I had to read was "courtship" to tell you that "yes" things have changed.
So to you what do you think has changed? When I was growing up I was taught that you don’t touch people unless you have affirmative consent. Now it seems like there is a push to teach young men to not even approach women with romantic intentions without affirmative consent.
 
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jacks

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Showing an open, honest interest in someone is never out of style. All the other manipulative game playing styles are really more of a problem. And of course it wasn't workplace harassment or an unequal balance of power, you weren't her boss, you were a customer.
 
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Merry Jerry

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Oh, that’s not what I meant. My mother played hard to get with my father. She said that in her day a woman just didn’t act too available and it was expected that the guy would need to be a bit persuasive and that no sometimes meant try a little harder. She was very clear though that the context was for dates not sex.
 
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Merry Jerry

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The accusation of the power imbalance was due to the fact that I had a warm car on a cold day.
 
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(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

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Of all the things I have ever needed, this is not one. It's an unfortunate stereotype, though, because it views women as inherently manipulative.
My wife told me that in all honesty she loved the fact that she was being chased
This quote confirms my statement. Women want to feel special. Deep down, they want to be desired, to be captivating. When this basic need is not fulfilled, they will try to fill that void elsewhere.
 
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mama2one

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My mother played hard to get with my father.

sounds like my grandmother
her husband came calling 3 times with candy and flowers before she said yes to a date

although husband pursued me, I said yes to marriage after only 2 mos & we married 4 mos later
think when the right person comes along, you know
 
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Paidiske

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And of course it wasn't workplace harassment ... you weren't her boss, you were a customer.

Customers can harass. A workplace should protect its workers from such harassment, but often they don't.

This quote confirms my statement. Women want to feel special. Deep down, they want to be desired, to be captivating. When this basic need is not fulfilled, they will try to fill that void elsewhere.

I want my husband to find me desirable rather than not-desirable, given that we are married. But I don't have a basic need to be "captivating" or "feel special," and if I hadn't married I'd be perfectly content, not having a void that needed filling in that regard.

Again, this sort of statement is really stereotyping of women, and it tends to encourage men to see us as manipulative (using men to meet our own emotional needs). It's demeaning, unhelpful and destructive.
 
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Merry Jerry

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sounds like my grandmother
her husband came calling 3 times with candy and flowers before she said yes to a date

although husband pursued me, I said yes to marriage after 2 mos and we married 4 mos later

so wasn't like grandma
That’s awesome. My wife and I dated for two years with her sister And her boyfriend(the sister’s) then later prodding us along the entire way. Every one in that family just has the biggest hearts and they are some of the nicest, most inclusive and most welcoming people. They all just seem to exude joy. The sister and her husband especially, they are the kindest people but also incredibly fun. They are the kind of people who would do anything for you and really know how to laugh at themselves. When I first started Officially dating my wife my future sister in-law introduced me to her then boyfriend/fiancé as Dr. Love in order coach me on my game. A lot of the stuff he had me doing was completely over the top and my future wife knew this and knew I was doing stuff at his behest but it was a lot of clean fun and more importantly it made both myself and my future wife laugh like no other. That’s how we really bonded, over both of us really learning to laugh at ourselves.
 
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Merry Jerry

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I dunno, *politely and gently signaling* [your words] as opposed to verbalizing a desire, sounds pretty manipulative to me.
 
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Paidiske

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I dunno, *politely and gently signaling* [your words] as opposed to verbalizing a desire, sounds pretty manipulative to me.

Most of us have learned that verbalising a desire to be left alone is likely to be met with aggression and hostility. Refusal to engage is often safer, especially when dealing with men we don't know.

My point is this: the idea that women need to be "captivating" is bunk. And it's harmful bunk. So if we can leave that out of discussions of contemporary romantic etiquette, that'd be awesome.
 
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Merry Jerry

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Sounds a lot like prejudice... I wonder how well this would go over if you replaced the word “men” with the word “minority”
 
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Paidiske

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Sounds a lot like prejudice...

It's reality. Women live with a level of constant threat. Considerate men will take that into account when wanting to court someone.
 
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NerdGirl

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Your story is PRECIOUS and sweet and adorable! This younger woman who was fussing at you will probably never get married herself, or wind up divorced half a dozen times. No, the rules of courtship never really change. We just like to pretend that they do. Mankind is still mankind, and what works still works.

I will say that a pushy or persistent guy would not work with me; that sort of behavior turns me off. But your wife is not me, and if she is happy and in love with you, then that's all that matters.
 
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tall73

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I think surveys and such still indicate that men tend to make the first move. Whether this is cultural, tied to higher risk taking due to more testosterone, etc. is up for discussion.

Despite some workplaces enacting stricter regulations workplace romances have continued going strong. This is one survey result, some time after #metoo increased awareness of harassment and the surrounding issues. There does seem to be a higher percentage of older workers who engage in such, though that may also reflect more years of opportunity, since it is discussing historical trends.

A couple of highlights:

These 6 Surprising Office Romance Stats Should Be A Wake-Up Call For Organizations

According to the survey, produced by job site Vault.com, 58% of employees have engaged in a romantic relationship with a colleague. A surprising 72% of those over 50 years old have been romantically involved with a coworker.

A whopping 18% of employees reported having a random hookup with a coworker.

Almost three in four (72%) would participate in an office romance again if given the chance.
 
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NerdGirl

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I absolutely want to feel captivating to the man I love. I think that's common to most women. Of course there can be exceptions, but I don't believe it's rare or harmful or anything like that at all. i think it's a universal female trait.

Perhaps people are using this word in different contexts. What woman doesn't want her man to look at her with starry eyes and a captivated expression, and know that he sees no other woman in the world but her? I sure as heck do. That's not manipulative or harmful, it's beautiful and natural and part of the dynamic of love and attraction between men and women.

I feel like there's a lot of miscommunication or misunderstanding around this very simple concept.
 
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Paidiske

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That sounds, at best, like infatuation, not love. Not the kind of love that puts in the hard yards over decades of marriage.

More to the point, what someone wants within their marriage is different from a blanket statement that "women need to feel captivating." As if, without having that kind of infatuated male attention, we're going to feel incomplete or unfulfilled. Even as if meaningful single life isn't possible!

It's just not true, and the implications are ugly.
 
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NerdGirl

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I wasn't referring to infatuation at all. I think it's sad to imply that a woman who's been married for thirty years can't still wish to be captivating to her husband, or that he wouldn't be captivated by her.

Perhaps some women *would* feel unfulfilled if they didn't feel captivating to their husband. Perhaps they simply think differently than you do.

"Meaningful single life" is a completely different existence than being married. Of course the dynamics and purpose and goals are going to be different than if you were married. Who would you even be wanting to captivate as a single woman without a significant other? That doesn't detract from the truth that a married woman has a different mindset than a single woman, and that she wishes her husband to find her enchanting, mesmerizing, appealing, attention-grabbing.

There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing "ugly" about it. You may simply operate in a different way within your own life and relationship, and that's fine.
 
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