Have the locusts from Rev 9 already been loosed?

Jamdoc · Jan 13, 2023

YahuahSaves said:
"John was given the Revelation in the 90-95 AD, and in Revelation 1:1 Messiah told him that these things would take place shortly.

1st Seal – The white horse represents the ‘conquering’ Roman Empire, from 98-117 AD, as under the reign of Emperor Trajan it was a time of its greatest expansion and their military conquests were celebrated by riding ‘white horses’ in their victory parades. Roman Emperors Nerva, Trajan, Hadrian, Antoninus Pius and Marcus Aurelius, were descendants of the Isle of Crete, who were famous bowmen, so the ‘bow‘ points directly at them. The ‘crown’ represents the laurel wreathes of victory that were worn by the Caesars after their armies had won a military battle.

2nd Seal – The Red horse represents a bloody time in the Roman Empire from 185-284 AD, as it went into a phase of revolution and civil war for 90 years, during which there were 32 emperors and 27 contenders for the throne.

3rd Seal – The Black horse represents a period of gloom and despair, as the Romans suffered under excessive taxes that were needed to pay for wars. The pricing for wheat and barley point to food scarcity from 222-235 AD.

4th Seal – The Pale horse represents 1/4th of Romans dying from famine, plague, pestilence and violence, from 250-300 AD. The word ‘earth‘ is pointing to the Roman Empire as the ‘land’ of prophecy.

5th Seal – It represents the millions of martyrs who were killed by the Roman Empire, especially the Smyrna church era martyrs who Emperor Diocletian persecuted for tenyears, from 303-312 AD. Their blood cried out for Elohim to avenge their deaths.

6th Seal – Earthquakes in the prophecy represent great political upheavals. Eastern Emperor Constantine defeated Diocletian’s army in 312 AD, which ended the persecutions. Diocletian (the Sun) was so panic stricken, he died insane. Constantine defeated emperors Maxentius and Licinius to become sole ruler of both west and east by 324 AD. The Roman leaders (stars) fell and their power receded as a scroll. The mountains and islands that were moved out of place, were the countries and people that were affected by this political change.

7th Seal – It represents Messiah sealing His servants before He sounds the seven war trumpets of judgment against the Pagan Roman Empire. SOURCE

The word quickly is not the same as soon. What is meant is that once these events start they will progress rapidly it won't take hundreds or thousands of years but it'll be over in 1 generation. Same thing Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse. The Fig tree would WITHER in the time of the Apostles, it would not bring forth new leaves (but note it is not bringing forth fruit, just leaves)

If THIS was the new earth promised? This sin cursed Satan ruled ball of filth? I'd be disappointed in God. No. things have not happened yet.

ItsAdventageous said:
The misunderstanding comes from the fact that you think Revelation mostly deals with physical "Jews" and war-torn earthly Jerusalem. They do not (except 1st Trumpet, which is the destruction of Jerusalem, AD 70). Modern day 'Jews" (Ashkenazic or Sephardic), and "Judaism" (which is nothing of the kind, but is Rabbinic Talmudistic Kabbalism) is not what the 7 Churches, 7 Seals or 7 Trumpets is about. 1947, 1967 &c have nothing to do with those texts.

The 5 months of Revelation 9 is from Pentecost (Acts 2, AD 31) unto Trumpets (1833/34).

I demonstrate this here - Revelation 9-11 Latest Notes And Studies (PDF, Open Doc) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Revelation 7 makes a distinction between a 144k remnant from the tribes of Israel, and a great multitude from every tribe, tongue and nation. Both groups are saved, but God does point out a distinction that there is a remnant of physical Jews saved.

Once you start allegorizing everything of course you can claim that scripture means whatever you want.

But that doesn't make it true.

DavidPT said:
If none of the trumpets blow until after the 6th seal, this would mean that the time of the 2Ws testifying, and the beast that ascends out of the pit, making war with them , overcoming them, and then killing them, after they have finished their testimony, that this would be after great tribulation rather than during great tribulation. How does it make sense, the fact the time of the 2Ws undeniably involves the 6th trumpet, that all of that is meaning after the great trib rather than before and during the great trib?

Does not the 42 month reign of the beast involve great tribulation? Does the 42 month reign parallel when the 2Ws are testifying? Or does it follow after they finish testifying? Either way, once the 42 month reign is in the past, no one would still be being made war against, overcome, then killed. And that as of the 6th seal, great tribulation would be in the past, which means the 42 month reign would be in the past.

It's hard enough to try and make sense out of the Pretrib view. Your view is even harder to make sense of, virtually impossible, I have yet to make sense of it. You and Douggg have a lot in common though, meaning some of the illogical things you both propose at times. For example. Douggg insists that during the 7th trumpet satan is opening the pit during the 5th trumpet. And you are insisting that the time of the 6th trumpet, which involves the time of great tribulation, that it is meaning after great tribulation.

Problem is you read too much into the "beast coming out of the pit" I think, it's not referring to the 5th trumpet.

remember that chapters and verse numbering are not inspired. Revelation 10 is parenthetical right? The first half of Revelation 11 is as well. It's explaining things that have been going on, not that there's 3.5 years between the 6th trumpet and 7th trumpet. The Earthquake and resurrection of the 2 witnesses I find as evidence that it's the 6th seal, in essence the 2 witnesses may be the last people killed in the Great Tribulation.

The connecting verse to bring us back to Chronology is Revelation 7:14.

Derf · Jan 13, 2023

tranquil said:
It really is very simple.
...

The locusts of the 5th Trumpet are the same locusts of Joel 1-3. They are the 'people of the prince to come' in Daniel 9:26.

4What the devouring locust has left, the swarming locust has eaten; what the swarming locust has left, the young locust has eaten; and what the young locust has left, the destroying locust has eaten. 5Wake up, you drunkards, and weep; wail, all you drinkers of wine, because of the sweet wine, for it has been cut off from your mouth. 6For a nation has invaded My land, powerful and without number; its teeth are the teeth of a lion, and its fangs are the fangs of a lioness. 7It has laid waste My grapevine and splintered My fig tree. It has stripped off the bark and thrown it away; the branches have turned white. 8Wail like a virgin dressed in sackcloth, grieving for the husband of her youth.

...

So why do the locusts have the ~~face~~ hair of a woman?

YahuahSaves · Jan 13, 2023

Jamdoc said:
The bible explains its own symbols

Does it? Then why is there so much confusion?

Jamdoc said:
If THIS was the new earth promised? This sin cursed Satan ruled ball of filth? I'd be disappointed in God. No. things have not happened yet.

If you had read the links, a majority of revelation has been fulfilled over the past 1,200+ years.but there are still some things that have yet come to pass. The problem with futurists is they take everything in revelation and put it at the end. We've been in the last days since Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected.

YahuahSaves · Jan 13, 2023

Derf said:
So why do the locusts have the face of a woman?

It always helps to know what English versions are the closest translation from the original languages of Hebrew & Greek.

Revelation 9:7-8
Young's Literal Translation
7 And the likenesses of the locusts [are] like to horses made ready to battle, and upon their heads as crowns like gold, and their faces as faces of men,

8 and they had hair as hair of women, and their teeth were as [those] of lions,

YahuahSaves said:
The 5th Trumpet represents the rise of the Islamic Empire, which God used to execute judgment against 1/3rd of the Roman Empire."

Revelation 9:7-8, “And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions”

Derf · Jan 13, 2023

YahuahSaves said:
It always helps to know what English versions are the closest translation from the original languages of Hebrew & Greek.

Revelation 9:7-8
Young's Literal Translation
7 And the likenesses of the locusts [are] like to horses made ready to battle, and upon their heads as crowns like gold, and their faces as faces of men,

8 and they had hair as hair of women, and their teeth were as [those] of lions,

Thanks for the correction. I meant to say "hair of a woman".

Jamdoc · Jan 14, 2023

YahuahSaves said:
Does it? Then why is there so much confusion?

Because of misinterpreting things like "I come quickly" as meaning "soon" for the 1st century, because a literal fulfillment did not happen but people think it MUST have happened during the first century to be "soon" they start allegorizing scripture, making symbols out of passages that were not explained as symbols or parables. Once you start allegorizing scripture it becomes difficult to stop because you get the ball rolling and it just picks up speed.

Furthermore, Jerusalem being destroyed in 70AD (the withering of the fig tree) meant that most people did not believe Jerusalem could come back, making literal fulfillment in their minds impossible, so they searched for alternative allegorical meanings, and began allegorizing all scripture having to do with Jerusalem as something either somehow fulfilled in the past (with some gumby stretching in a lot of cases), or was "spiritual" and apply it to the church instead.

Amillennialism gets its roots from this train of thought.

YahuahSaves said:
If you had read the links, a majority of revelation has been fulfilled over the past 1,200+ years.but there are still some things that have yet come to pass. The problem with futurists is they take everything in revelation and put it at the end. We've been in the last days since Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected.

I'm not interested in gumby stretches and mental gymnastics to try and force square pegs into round holes to "fulfill" prophecy.

Jesus said that it would happen in 1 generation, not over thousands of years, that the generation that saw the fig tree bring forth new leaves would not pass away until all these things were fulfilled. Not some, but all, including the second coming.

YahuahSaves · Jan 14, 2023

Jamdoc said:
Jesus said that it would happen in 1 generation, not over thousands of years, that the generation that saw the fig tree bring forth new leaves would not pass away until all these things were fulfilled.

Perhaps try reading scripture and note that it says "this generation will not pass away" before these things come to pass. Jesus was speaking directly to his disciples also, when they asked him what the sign is of his return at the end of the age. (Not world) the original texts go by ages. From "age-to-age" is translated in the English "eternal", but it's more accurately translated as age. (Time-to-time)

"Most of Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the first century, in that generation of wicked Jewish leaders who rejected Messiah and delivered Him up to be killed. In Matthew 23, Messiah rebuked them and proclaimed that judgment was coming upon them in that generation, which took place during the Jewish-Roman War of 66-70 AD.

The latter part of Matthew 24 and Matthew 25 seem to be pointing to Messiah’s return in the future. The text was added by Matthew, but Mark did not include it after his recording of the Olivet Discourse. And Luke applied the text of the latter part of Matthew 24 and Matthew 25 to a different sermon, thus not associating it with the Olivet Discourse." Source

Jamdoc · Jan 14, 2023

YahuahSaves said:
Perhaps try reading scripture and note that it says "this generation will not pass away" before these things come to pass. Jesus was speaking directly to his disciples also, when they asked him what the sign is of his return at the end of the age. (Not world) the original texts go by ages. From "age-to-age" is translated in the English "eternal", but it's more accurately translated as age. (Time-to-time)

"Most of Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the first century, in that generation of wicked Jewish leaders who rejected Messiah and delivered Him up to be killed. In Matthew 23, Messiah rebuked them and proclaimed that judgment was coming upon them in that generation, which took place during the Jewish-Roman War of 66-70 AD.

The latter part of Matthew 24 and Matthew 25 seem to be pointing to Messiah’s return in the future. The text was added by Matthew, but Mark did not include it after his recording of the Olivet Discourse. And Luke applied the text of the latter part of Matthew 24 and Matthew 25 to a different sermon, thus not associating it with the Olivet Discourse." Source

Context.
Don't take verses in a vacuum.

Matthew 24

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

See the natural break, "now learn a parable" that's a natural conversational break from 1 topic to the next, to address a different point.
Jesus referred to the fig tree He withered outside of Jerusalem in Matthew 21. He then explained that that demonstration, was a parable, Jerusalem was fruitless, Jerusalem would wither.
BUT, when the fig tree put forth new leaves, then you know something is going to happen, summer is near.
so, the generation that witnessed ALL THESE THIINGS would witness the second coming, they wouldn't pass away.
Jesus was not meaning the 1st century, Jesus didn't know when exactly this would happen, but Jesus knew the events, and when they started, they'd complete quickly, within 1 generation, not over 1000 years.

Jesus even professes, He doesn't know when exactly this will happen

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

and if you don't accept that and believe Jesus HAD to know the exact time, well
Look at Mark's version.

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

That's why Jesus gave signs, not dates, not even years.

But essentially. What Jesus said, is that it'd happen within 1 generation, all of it.
So that is either full preterism, and the god of full preterists might just be the most disappointing "god" ever believed in by anyone if THIS mess is the fulfillment of promise of a new earth.

or.. it hasn't been fulfilled yet, and is future.

Partial doesn't work because it doesn't fit with all these things be fulfilled before that generation passes away, you have to mental gymnastics and say "well he meant these things but not that thing" Really? Because the text was all these things, and the last thing mentioned in "these things" was His second coming.

YahuahSaves · Jan 14, 2023

Jamdoc said:
But essentially. What Jesus said, is that it'd happen within 1 generation, all of it.

Yes, the generation of the disciples. They cannot "see" (witness) something that would transpire in their time as well as ours (or vice-versa). You need to do more research.

Matthew 24:30-31

30 And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.[a] (a:See Dan 7:13)
31 And he will send out his angels with the mighty blast of a trumpet, and they will gather his chosen ones from all over the world(b:Greek from the four winds)
—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven.

See: The Little Horn Of Daniel 7

Wayne Gabler · Jan 14, 2023

Nope.
Here is the 'long explanation':
Seals, trumps and vials..docx, Visions and explanations.docx

Derf · Jan 14, 2023

ItsAdventageous said:
(staff edit)

Before I go to such extent, can you show me it will be worthwhile by elaborating only on the locusts, and especially why they have hair like women?

Wayne Gabler · Jan 14, 2023

Derf said:
Before I go to such extent, can you show me it will be worthwhile by elaborating only on the locusts, and especially why they have hair like women?

Maybe read those two before I give you any links to the Iron and the Beast from the Pit. Satan is the baddest fallen angel, (manly) the beast is equal to being a woman. Based on Adam and Eve, Adam is the man because he was created at the start of day6 of creation, while Eve was the last creation of that day.
BTW, I don't care if you don't read them, all it does is shorten the number of my posts addressed to you.

tranquil · Jan 14, 2023

Derf said:
So why do the locusts have the ~~face~~ hair of a woman?

Great question.

Because they are imitating the 144,000

Rev 14

3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, 5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

The 144,00 are symbolic 'virgins' who are faithful to God. The 144,000 and the 'great multitude' of Rev 7 are the 'living waters' of Zechariah 14:8. The 'summer and winter alike' in that verse is a reference to the Feast of Tabernacles and then 5 months later at 15 Adar (at the start of the 6th Trumpet). (There is no 'whisked away rapture' - only being gathered as part of the 'living waters'.)

Wormwood of the 3rd Trumpet is a reference to the bitter waters ritual in Numbers 5. These 'locusts' are the counterpoint to the 'living waters' - they are the 'unliving waters' promoting an evil gospel.

The 'hair of a woman' is a reference to Numbers 6 and the vow of the Nazirite.

Numbers 6

1And the LORD said to Moses, 2“Speak to the Israelites and tell them that if a man or woman makes a special vow, the vow of a Nazirite, to separate himself to the LORD, 3he is to abstain from wine and strong drink. He must not drink vinegar made from wine or strong drink, and he must not drink any grape juice or eat fresh grapes or raisins. 4All the days of his separation, he is not to eat anything that comes from the grapevine, not even the seeds or skins.

5For the entire period of his vow of separation, no razor shall pass over his head. He must be holy until the time of his separation to the LORD is complete; he must let the hair of his head grow long.

If you remember the story of Samson with his long hair, that is referencing this. The Nazirites were 'separating themselves' to the Lord just like the 144,000 are separated to the Lord also.

The long hair is signifying that they are trying to appear to be holy. The crowns of gold on the locusts' heads is an imitation crown of overcoming. Same idea.

tranquil · Jan 14, 2023

Derf said:
So why do the locusts have the ~~face~~ hair of a woman?

Thinking about it some more:

Rev 9

4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5They were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone.

I think that it is entirely possible that these 'locusts' are 'chipping'/ 'vaccinating' people in the future.

But in light of your question, there is another possibility: the people who are not sealed and are tormented by the locusts (the victims of the locusts) could be tormented by the fact that they are not part of the 'elect' - which to their minds, they think that the locusts are the 'overcomers' and that they (the non-locusts) are the spiritual 'failures'.

see Luke 13:23-28 and Matthew 24:51. The people who aren't sealed are 'weeping and gnashing their teeth' because they think that the kingdom of heaven has come and they aren't invited.

Derf · Jan 14, 2023

Wayne Gabler said:
Maybe read those two before I give you any links to the Iron and the Beast from the Pit. Satan is the baddest fallen angel, (manly) the beast is equal to being a woman. Based on Adam and Eve, Adam is the man because he was created at the start of day6 of creation, while Eve was the last creation of that day.
BTW, I don't care if you don't read them, all it does is shorten the number of my posts addressed to you.

Ok. Sorry to have you drop out of the conversation so soon.

Derf · Jan 14, 2023

tranquil said:
Thinking about it some more:

Rev 9

4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5They were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone.

I think that it is entirely possible that these 'locusts' are 'chipping'/ 'vaccinating' people in the future.

But in light of your question, there is another possibility: the people who are not sealed and are tormented by the locusts (the victims of the locusts) could be tormented by the fact that they are not part of the 'elect' - which to their minds, they think that the locusts are the 'overcomers' and that they (the non-locusts) are the spiritual 'failures'.

see Luke 13:23-28 and Matthew 24:51. The people who aren't sealed are 'weeping and gnashing their teeth' because they think that the kingdom of heaven has come and they aren't invited.

Extra points for thinking it through! I'm not quite ready to accept the spiritual failures bit.

Wayne Gabler · Jan 14, 2023

Derf said:
Before I go to such extent, can you show me it will be worthwhile by elaborating only on the locusts, and especially why they have hair like women?

Maybe read those two before I give you any links to the Iron and the Beast from the Pit. Satan is the baddest fallen angel, (manly) the beast is equal to being a woman. Based on Adam and Eve, Adam is the man because he was created at the start of day6 of creation, while Eve was the last creation of that day.
BTW, I don't care if you don't read them, all it does is shorten the number of my posts addressed to you.

Derf said:
Ok. Sorry to have you drop out of the conversation so soon.

No need to be sorry, wisdom about what is in the Bibles isn't meant to be painful as far as I know.

Jamdoc · Jan 14, 2023

YahuahSaves said:
Yes, the generation of the disciples. They cannot "see" (witness) something that would transpire in their time as well as ours (or vice-versa). You need to do more research.

Matthew 24:30-31

30 And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.[a] (a:See Dan 7:13)
31 And he will send out his angels with the mighty blast of a trumpet, and they will gather his chosen ones from all over the world(b:Greek from the four winds)
—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven.

See: The Little Horn Of Daniel 7

They passed away, and Jesus did not come back.

Under partial preterist, and historicist doctrine, Jesus lied.

YahuahSaves · Jan 14, 2023

Jamdoc said:
They passed away, and Jesus did not come back.

Under partial preterist, and historicist doctrine, Jesus lied.

"This is true. Preterist says that Messiah returned, but the context of Matthew 24 is not about Messiah’s return, but rather about His coming on the clouds in power and glory, pointing to His judgment of the Jewish nation.

Messiah told the High Priest that he would see Him come in power and glory. Was Messiah mistaken? No! The High Priest of Israel saw the desolation of Jerusalem, the temple and the Jewish nation, and understood that it was righteous judgment against the Jewish leaders, which Messiah proclaimed in Matthew 23." Source

Jamdoc · Jan 15, 2023

YahuahSaves said:
"This is true. Preterist says that Messiah returned, but the context of Matthew 24 is not about Messiah’s return, but rather about His coming on the clouds in power and glory, pointing to His judgment of the Jewish nation.

Messiah told the High Priest that he would see Him come in power and glory. Was Messiah mistaken? No! The High Priest of Israel saw the desolation of Jerusalem, the temple and the Jewish nation, and understood that it was righteous judgment against the Jewish leaders, which Messiah proclaimed in Matthew 23." Source

The coming on the clouds part of Matthew 24 is referring to the second coming, consistent with biblical "day of the Lord" passages throughout the Old Testament and consistent with Revelation 6's 6th seal

The disciples asked about the signs of His coming, you're saying He didn't answer.

Have the locusts from Rev 9 already been loosed?

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