Have massive, apostolic-level healings continued?

[TruthSeek3r]

All one has to do is use their brain when reading the Scripture. Jesus has ascended to be at the right hand of God and is interceding night and day for the saints of God. He sent the Holy Spirit to the church to take His place on earth - to represent Him. There is no need for Him to come back to earth before the appointed time because the Third Person of the Godhead is here to give us all the direction we need for our spiritual lives.

I accept that some have visions of Jesus, but never personal visitations. When Jesus said He was going to come again, He didn't mean that He was going to come on multiple occasions to pay visits to "special" people. The indwelling Holy Spirit is equal in all respects to Jesus, so it makes no sense to have the Holy Spirit Who is not only with us but in us, and have Jesus here in person at the same time. The representation that the Holy Spirit performs is a complete representation and everything that Jesus would say and do on earth is done by the Holy Spirit.

Your reasoning is flawed. There is no logical contradiction in having both Jesus and the Holy Spirit present at some place at the same time. Even if the Holy Spirit and Jesus share the same characteristics and are capable of the same feats (or using Trinitarian language, share the same nature/substance), there is nothing that makes it logically impossible for them to be together at some specific place and time. It's like saying: A and B share the same nature, therefore A and B cannot be together. It just doesn't follow. It's a non sequitur fallacy.

Not only that: your statement is proven utterly false by the book of Acts itself. The Holy Spirit came over the Church in Acts 2. Yet, Jesus paid a visit to Paul in Acts 9. In other words, the Holy Spirit was already around since Acts chapter 2, yet seven chapters later this didn't prevent Jesus from visiting Paul. This clearly contradicts your thesis. If the Holy Spirit's being here prevents Jesus from visiting people, then how come Jesus was able to visit Paul in Acts 9? ... Because both can be present at the same time on earth. There is no logical contradiction, as I already explained in the previous paragraph.

I can't imagine Jesus saying to the Father, "I have to stop interceding for the believers right now, because I have to leave Your throne and pay a personal visit to Brother Zlogg to encourage him. The Father might say to Jesus: "Wouldn't the Holy Spirit do what needs to be done. He is quite capable, seeing that He is representing you." Jesus might reply, "But the good brother thinks the Holy Spirit is some kind of mist that hovers over him instead of the Divine Person that He is, so I have to go to the brother and put him right. But, because there's another whole batch of believers I have to intercede for, I'll raise the Virgin Mary from the dead and she can go instead."

Sounds like you don't believe that Jesus is capable of being present in multiple places at the same time.

Do you believe that Jesus is omnipresent?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Interesting thread...

Jesus appeared to me when I was about 8 years of age.

He first confirmed who He was.

Then He said that there was nothing I would do in this life that He would not see.

The issue is - was this a vision ??

I remember exactly where I was standing in our house.

He appeared to me like 'suspended' and spoke words direct to my spirit (not through my ears)

It had a big impact on my life.

Generally believers are afraid to talk about such encounters but years later I made a point of questioning believers about it and found such encounters were more common than I thought. Folks are reluctant to share for fear of being considered 'unhinged'.

These days I don't care about reputation and share about several encounters I have had over the years.

Of course this was not anything like as significant as Paul on the road, but still real, and impacting for good.

The encounters I have had, leave me with a very deep sense of the Holiness, Love and Fear of God.

I think the calling on ones life needs one to hear His Word direct - this may come while reading Scripture or through dreams and visions or sometimes a surge of God's power and voice upon you. I guess I have had all three.

It is important to stand up and be honest about such encounters and not be afraid to share about them.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Your reasoning is flawed. There is no logical contradiction in having both Jesus and the Holy Spirit present at some place at the same time. Even if the Holy Spirit and Jesus share the same characteristics and are capable of the same feats (or using Trinitarian language, share the same nature/substance), there is nothing that makes it logically impossible for them to be together at some specific place and time. It's like saying: A and B share the same nature, therefore A and B cannot be together. It just doesn't follow. It's a non sequitur fallacy.

Not only that: your statement is proven utterly false by the book of Acts itself. The Holy Spirit came over the Church in Acts 2. Yet, Jesus paid a visit to Paul in Acts 9. In other words, the Holy Spirit was already around since Acts chapter 2, yet seven chapters later this didn't prevent Jesus from visiting Paul. This clearly contradicts your thesis. If the Holy Spirit's being here prevents Jesus from visiting people, then how come Jesus was able to visit Paul in Acts 9? ... Because both can be present at the same time on earth. There is no logical contradiction, as I already explained in the previous paragraph.



Sounds like you don't believe that Jesus is capable of being present in multiple places at the same time.

Do you believe that Jesus is omnipresent?

I don't believe that the glorified man Jesus is omnipresent. He is in one place - at the right hand of the majesty on high interceding for the saints. He is in a glorified body, the same type of glorified body that we are going to receive when we meet Him face to face.

It is the Holy Spirit who is omnipresent, and dwells in the spirit of every believer who is genuinely converted to Christ.

I believe that most "personal" visits by someone who is depicted as Jesus, are counterfeits to entice people to put their trust in a visible representation of Christ. No one knows what Jesus looks like. John did not experience a personal visitation of Jesus on Patmos. It was a vision, but so powerful that John fell down as if dead. Paul saw a blinding light, and heard Christ's voice, but he didn't actually see Him, so Christ opened a portal directly from heaven to stop Paul in his tracks. Then the Holy Spirit sent Ananias to pray with him and get him converted to Christ and baptised with the Holy Spirit. After that Paul was guided by the Holy Spirit, and encouraged by angels.

There is the modern account of a group of Christians being pursued by a group of jihadists intent on killing them. Then a dust storm appeared between the two groups and a voice was heard out of the dust storm saying, "I am Jesus Christ. Why are you persecuting me?" As a result, all except one of the jihadists were converted to Christ, and they were going after the remaining one to get him converted as well. This was not a personal visitation by Jesus. It was the Holy Spirit representing Jesus. It was quite possible and appropriate for Jesus to instruct the Holy Spirit to tell the group that it was He who was speaking.

Jesus doesn't have to come out of heaven to visit anyone. He can instruct the Holy Spirit to speak, or to give someone a vision. I have received two visions of Christ as a shining white figure, and both were totally life changing. Anyone who says they have had a vision or a personal visit from Christ and not been taken completely apart and put back together again is either lying, or has experienced a counterfeit.

Because we don't know what Jesus looks like, anyone can appear and say they are Jesus and deceive people. These "visitors" usually say things that are inconsistent with the Gospel of Christ, and this is consistent with Paul saying that even if an angel from heaven comes preaching another gospel, they are accursed. And that Satan can appear as an angel of light in order to deceive people, so why not appear as a facsimile of some artists' impression of Jesus?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Jesus appeared to Thomas and invited him to feel His wounds.

His resurrected body was able to take physical form.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Such things are called "operations of God."

Consider 1 Corinthians 12

1 Corinthians 12:4-6 KJV
4. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

• God puts forth an operation, or what some today call a "movement."
• The Lord Jesus (as the head of the body) sends forth administrations (Gk: ministries) to accomplish the God's operation.
• The Holy Spirit enables the minsters with the giftings required to fulfil their ministries.

It is believed by many that in these last days God will initiate an "operation" similar to in scope if not greater (i.e.. the "former rain" and the "latter rain") than that seen in the first century. All this as a fulfilment of God's last day army that will evangelize the world as a part of the "restitution of all things."

Acts 3:20-21 KJV
20. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

This will fulfil that which was written by Paul in Ephesians 4.

Ephesians 4:11-16 KJV
11. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14. That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15. But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

When I was first saved, in my younger days of the early 70s, I was convinced I would see these things happen. Now I am in my later 60s and I am beginning to believe I will not see it in my lifetime. But I do believe my children and grandchildren will see it in theirs.

 

[ARBITER01]

Have massive, apostolic-level healings continued? Does anyone know about men or women of God who God has used mightily in more recent times, with signs and wonders and miracles to a degree comparable to the first century Church?

Not in recent times here in America.

We had some major moves of GOD early on in our country,.. Charles Finney and others, but one of the most used by GOD in power here had to be Maria Woodsworth Etter. You should pick up some of her books and look at the testimonies that she copied into them from people who wrote her after she visited areas. Some of them are just amazing and quite moving.

That power from GOD has always remained for the church, the problem is being able to spend time with GOD. In our world currently we have so many distractions to pull us away from GOD, plus our economy requires us to hold down a job just to survive, unless you're some off the grid homesteader.

Being separate from them is a hard thing to do nowadays, but for those few that will keep reaching, He has His ways to make it happen.

 

[Always in His Presence]

The original Apostles of Christ were unique in he history of the church. They were personally appointed by Christ, witnessed in person the resurrected Christ, specifically commissioned by Christ Himself to preach the Gospel throughout all the world, and had signs and wonders as an integral component in their ministry to the unconverted.

Paul does not meet that description on a number of levels.

Also - where did Timothy have great signs and wonders? Or Mark? or perhaps Andrew? Bartholomew?
James the lesser? Simon the Zealot? Matthias who became and Apostle by the casting of lots?
Scripture is mostly silent on them.

Then there are the Apostles of the early church - like Barnabus, never commissioned by Christ and not of the 12.

 

[lismore]

In defence of the apostle Paul- Acts 28:1-10

Paul was bitten by a deadly snake and suffered no ill effects. Paul healed all the sick on Malta.

God Bless

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Paul does not meet that description on a number of levels.

Also - where did Timothy have great signs and wonders? Or Mark? or perhaps Andrew? Bartholomew?
James the lesser? Simon the Zealot? Matthias who became and Apostle by the casting of lots?
Scripture is mostly silent on them.

Then there are the Apostles of the early church - like Barnabus, never commissioned by Christ and not of the 12.

The difference between the Apostles of Christ (only 12 of them) and the church apostles has already been fully explained and doesn't need to be repeated here.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The difference between the Apostles of Christ (only 12 of them) and the church apostles has already been fully explained and doesn't need to be repeated here.

Which raises the question - are there any 'church apostles' today?

I have met a gentle giant in the faith who was a pastor to the pastors... closest I have ever seen to this office.

 

[perpendicular_bisector]

There is no apostle alive today who is able to do what the early apostles did.

Revelation 21:14

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Which raises the question - are there any 'church apostles' today?

I have met a gentle giant in the faith who was a pastor to the pastors... closest I have ever seen to this office.

I do think there are those who are recognised as church apostles today. There are godly men whose ministries are recognised across denominations. My friend Rodney Francis, who passed away recently, was one of those who could have had an apostolic ministry.

 

[ARBITER01]

The original Apostles of Christ were unique in he history of the church. They were personally appointed by Christ, witnessed in person the resurrected Christ, specifically commissioned by Christ Himself to preach the Gospel throughout all the world, and had signs and wonders as an integral component in their ministry to the unconverted. They were the unique pioneers of the early church and when they all died that unique ministry died with them. There were only 12 if we include Paul and exclude Matthias (who was appointed by the eleven and not by Christ personally. Paul witnessed the resurrected Christ and was personally appointed by Him). There are no Apostles of Christ in the world today, because it would be impossible for anyone to meet the criteria.

You may want to reconsider your statement on this a bit Oscarr. If we dig into the Greek, this list does appear correct.

Copied from Lester Sumrall's Gifts and Ministries of The Holy Spirit,...

B. There are twenty-four apostles in the New Testament.

1) Jesus Christ
Hebrews 3:1, Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly
calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ
Jesus.

2) Paul
Galatians 1:1, Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ,
and God the father, who raised him from the dead

3) Simon Peter
Galatians 2:8, (For He that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the
circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles

4) Andrew
Matthew 10:2, Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon,
who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother...

5) James, son of Zebedee
Matthew 10:2, Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; . . .James his
brother. . .

6) John
Matthew 10:2, Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: . . .John
his brother. . .

7) Philip
Matthew 10:2-3, Now the names of the twelve apostles are these;. . .
v. 3, Philip. . .

8) Bartholomew
Matthew 10:2-3, Now the names of the twelve apostles are these;. . .
v. 3, . . .Bartholomew. . .

9) James, son of Alphaeus
Matthew 10:2-3, Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; . . .
v. 3, . . . James, son of Alphaeus. . .

10) Judas, brother of James
Luke 6:16, And Judas the brother of James. . .

11) Matthew
Luke 6:13, 15, And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and
of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
v. 15, Matthew. . .

12) Thomas
Matthew 10:2-3, Now the names of the twelve apostles are these;
v. 3, . . . Thomas. . .

13) Simon Zelotes
Luke 6:13, 15, And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and
of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles. . .
v. 15, . . .Simon called Zelotes. . .

14) Judas Iscariot
Matthew 10:2, 4, Now the names of the twelve apostles are these;
v. 4, . . .Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

15) Matthias
Acts 1:26, And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias;
and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

16) Barnabas
I Corinthians 9:5-6, Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as
well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

17) Andronicus
Romans 16:7, Salute Andronicus, and Junia, my kinsmen, and my
fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in
Christ before me.

18) Junia
Romans 16:7, Salute . . .Junia. . .who are of note among the apostles. . .

19) Apollos
I Corinthians 4:6-9, And these things, brethren, I have in a figure
transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in
us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be
puffed up for one against another.
v. 7, For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou
that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou
glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
v. 8, Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without
us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.
v. 9, For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were
appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to
angels, and to men.

20) James the Lord’s brother
Galatians 1:19, But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the
Lord’s brother.
James 1:1, James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the
twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

21) Silas
I Thessalonians 1:1, Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church
of the Thessalonians. . .
I Thessalonians 2:6, Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet
of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of
Christ.

22) Timothy
I Thessalonians 1:1, Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus...

23) Titus
II Corinthians 8:23, Whether any do inquire of Titus, he is my partner
and fellow helper concerning you: or our brethren be inquired of, they
are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ.

24) Epaphroditus
Philippians 2:25, Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you
Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier,
but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

You may want to reconsider your statement on this a bit Oscarr. If we dig into the Greek, this list does appear correct.

Copied from Lester Sumrall's Gifts and Ministries of The Holy Spirit,...
.

Good list. Been studying this topic for years, and I have wondered about Andronicus and Junias.

Romans 16
7 Salute Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also have been in Christ before me.

You could read it two ways:

One is, as suggested, Andronicus and Junias are apostles and are of note among the other apostles.
For example: "Salute the moderators of note: Oscar and ARBITER01."
This would indicate you are both also moderators.​

Or,

You could read it "The apostles take note of Andronicus and Junias, who are just believers."

It is like saying, "Salute Oscar and ARBITER01, who are of note among the moderators."
You may be of note among the moderators, but that does not necessarily mean you are also moderators.

Thanks... dids.​

 

[ARBITER01]

Good list. Been studying this topic for years, and I have wondered about Andronicus and Junias.

Romans 16
7 Salute Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also have been in Christ before me.

You could read it two ways:

One is, as suggested, Andronicus and Junias are apostles and are of note among the other apostles.
For example: "Salute the moderators of note: Oscar and ARBITER01."
This would indicate you are both also moderators.​

Or,

You could read it "The apostles take note of Andronicus and Junias, who are just believers."

It is like saying, "Salute Oscar and ARBITER01, who are of note among the moderators."
You may be of note among the moderators, but that does not necessarily mean you are also moderators.

Thanks... dids.​

True.

There are a few statements that could be read a couple different ways, along with words being used differently, such as the word "messengers" instead of apostles being used. I think for the most part though, the list is quite sound.

The idea from Oscarr that there never was more than 12 apostles really doesn't jive too well. In fact, look at the statement in acts,..

Act 1:26 And they gave lots for them; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

According to this statement, Matthias became the 12th apostle, replacing Judas, and then Paul became the 13th.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Rev 21:14 needs to be taken into account...

 

[ARBITER01]

Rev 21:14 needs to be taken into account...

In what way?

 

[Carl Emerson]

The New Jerusalem

Rev 21
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very valuable stone, like a stone of crystal-clear jasper. 12 It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on the gates, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

This establishes 12 only were chosen to be elevated eternally.

However there are may more and I have no reason to believe we don't have some alive today.

The two witnesses are certainly candidates...

 

[ARBITER01]

The New Jerusalem

Rev 21
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very valuable stone, like a stone of crystal-clear jasper. 12 It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on the gates, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

This establishes 12 only were chosen to be elevated eternally.

However there are may more and I have no reason to believe we don't have some alive today.

The two witnesses are certainly candidates...

I think that's more of a rabbit trail to somewhere else Carl.

Of course the original twelve are recognized in portions of scripture such as the one you quoted, but the point being talked about here was the appointment of more than just those original twelve in scripture.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think that's more of a rabbit trail to somewhere else Carl.

Of course the original twelve are recognized in portions of scripture such as the one you quoted, but the point being talked about here was the appointment of more than just those original twelve in scripture.

Which is what I said.