Have heaven and earth passed away yet?
- Thread starter Travis93
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We can argue with brainwashed people until the moon really turns to cheese and they will still take verses out of context to prove their false belief systems. Keep stating the real truth so that those who lurk on forums will not be ill advised. May God bless you for stating the truth.
Anyone who tells us that we must observe a covenant given to only to one specific nation at Sinai and that nation has since continuously broken the covenant so that it now no longer exists is completely misinformed and is responsible to God for doing so.
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Thank you for asking. I have highlighted where I stand. What is so wonderful is the fact that Jesus has invited me and all those in the World to join in and take part in His covenant of love. The writer quotes Jeremiah as to who the covenant is for, but Jesus had already included all His children.
Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole World as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
God shed His blood for all mankind, but before He did He gave us a new command:Jn15:9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.
Hebrews 8New International Version (NIV)
The High Priest of a New Covenant
8 Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.
3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”a]">[a] 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said
“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”c]">[c]
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
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Lulav
Y'shua is His Name
I'm sorry, I've just been so busy. Been online here today for over 4 hours already and haven't even had a chance to post til now.Did you happen to have a chance to start the thread on the bride of Yeshua? I am really anticipating the discussion. Hope to hear from you soon
I will get on that soon. Or you could start on with any questions you have in the MJ forum, alert me and I'll be sure to reply.
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1John2:4
Well-Known Member
I will post on MJ talk to you soon ")I'm sorry, I've just been so busy. Been online here today for over 4 hours already and haven't even had a chance to post til now.
I will get on that soon. Or you could start on with any questions you have in the MJ forum, alert me and I'll be sure to reply.
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Lulav
Y'shua is His Name
Thank you for your response. I will reply within the text of your post.
I had asked you what covenant you believed you were under because you had said this:
So you believe that you are under a 'covenant of love'? And that the 'specific nation at Sinai' was not under a covenant of love?
To me, 'testimony' is not the same as 'invitation', the 'testimony' is another way of saying a 'witness' and that is not what , according to the testimony of John ""No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." So it is not about the gospel being preached to the nations.
Bob, you do realize that it was you who said it was a 'new' commandment? Not Jesus. The passage does not say that, do you know why? because Jesus didn't rewrite Gods commandments, he came to teach the way to do them. He is basing this upon the two 'greatest commandments' #1 Loving God and #2 Loving your neighbor. (Matthew 22)
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
When he said that in John he was speaking not to the world but to the ones closest to him, the ones he called 'friends' that since he was giving up his life for them he wanted them to do the same for others if necessary.
Let's just stop there for a moment. and notice what it says in verse 8, or maybe we should notice what it doesn't say. It doesn't say God found fault with his laws but the people who were having trouble keeping it. He is amending the contract not in what it entails but how it is lived out. They couldn't do it the way it was initially so he made a way they could do it. It's about how to keep it, not by changing it or doing away with it. God doesn't do things wrongly, he gets things right the first time, but He needed to have it this way at first so everyone could learn their need for him.
Notice two things,
1. This new covenant is contrasted with the 'old' covenant, which was a marriage contract. It was made between God and the children of Israel and the people (the strangers who weren't from any of the tribes but who 'converted', put aside their other gods and pledged to worship the one true God. ).
2. They are the ones who had the covenant and they are the ones that will be given the new version. It's like the covenant made at Sinai was 'The Laws of God' and the new Covenant is 'The laws of God 2.0', it's and upgrade, a better system.
Bill Gates didn't throw out the First Window, but he built upon it over and over. God doesn't need to do that, he just changed the 'platform' or the OS, the Operating system.
I hope I explained that well, if you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.
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I had asked you what covenant you believed you were under because you had said this:
You're welcome, I'm glad to discuss this with you.
So you believe that you are under a 'covenant of love'? And that the 'specific nation at Sinai' was not under a covenant of love?So am I understanding you correctly that Jeremiah who was a prophet (spokenman) for the LRD was not speaking the truth from God or that Jesus changed what Jeremiah was saying into something else? I don't think that can be true, do you?
To me, 'testimony' is not the same as 'invitation', the 'testimony' is another way of saying a 'witness' and that is not what , according to the testimony of John ""No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." So it is not about the gospel being preached to the nations.
Bob, you do realize that it was you who said it was a 'new' commandment? Not Jesus. The passage does not say that, do you know why? because Jesus didn't rewrite Gods commandments, he came to teach the way to do them. He is basing this upon the two 'greatest commandments' #1 Loving God and #2 Loving your neighbor. (Matthew 22)
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
When he said that in John he was speaking not to the world but to the ones closest to him, the ones he called 'friends' that since he was giving up his life for them he wanted them to do the same for others if necessary.
Let's just stop there for a moment. and notice what it says in verse 8, or maybe we should notice what it doesn't say. It doesn't say God found fault with his laws but the people who were having trouble keeping it. He is amending the contract not in what it entails but how it is lived out. They couldn't do it the way it was initially so he made a way they could do it. It's about how to keep it, not by changing it or doing away with it. God doesn't do things wrongly, he gets things right the first time, but He needed to have it this way at first so everyone could learn their need for him.
Notice two things,
1. This new covenant is contrasted with the 'old' covenant, which was a marriage contract. It was made between God and the children of Israel and the people (the strangers who weren't from any of the tribes but who 'converted', put aside their other gods and pledged to worship the one true God. ).
2. They are the ones who had the covenant and they are the ones that will be given the new version. It's like the covenant made at Sinai was 'The Laws of God' and the new Covenant is 'The laws of God 2.0', it's and upgrade, a better system.
This is misunderstood to mean that the whole thing was done away with. Instead a better version was given.
Bill Gates didn't throw out the First Window, but he built upon it over and over. God doesn't need to do that, he just changed the 'platform' or the OS, the Operating system.
I hope I explained that well, if you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.
ETA: Fixed quote html
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No your quoted passages don't amend anything.Thank you for your response. I will reply within the text of your post.
I had asked you what covenant you believed you were under because you had said this:
You're welcome, I'm glad to discuss this with you.
So am I understanding you correctly that Jeremiah who was a prophet (spokenman) for the LRD was not speaking the truth from God or that Jesus changed what Jeremiah was saying into something else? I don't think that can be true, do you?
To me, 'testimony' is not the same as 'invitation', the 'testimony' is another way of saying a 'witness' and that is not what , according to the testimony of John ""No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." So it is not about the gospel being preached to the nations.
QUOTE="Bob S, post: 69922474, member: 382831"]God shed His blood for all mankind, but before He did He gave us a new command:Jn15:9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17
This is my command: Love each other.
Bob, you do realize that it was you who said it was a 'new' commandment? Not Jesus. The passage does not say that, do you know why? because Jesus didn't rewrite Gods commandments, he came to teach the way to do them. He is basing this upon the two 'greatest commandments' #1 Loving God and #2 Loving your neighbor. (Matthew 22)
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
When he said that in John he was speaking not to the world but to the ones closest to him, the ones he called 'friends' that since he was giving up his life for them he wanted them to do the same for others if necessary.
Let's just stop there for a moment. and notice what it says in verse 8, or maybe we should notice what it doesn't say. It doesn't say God found fault with his laws but the people who were having trouble keeping it. He is amending the contract not in what it entails but how it is lived out. They couldn't do it the way it was initially so he made a way they could do it. It's about how to keep it, not by changing it or doing away with it. God doesn't do things wrongly, he gets things right the first time, but He needed to have it this way at first so everyone could learn their need for him.
Those people you wish to call strangers were no strangers if they joined themselves to the Lord according to Ex 12:48 they're counted as one born in the land IOW they're part of the covenant.
The NC isn't an upgrade, its a totally different covenant.
Amen!! So your point 2 above fails.
Unfortunately the programs First Window operated won't work on Windows 10. Neither will the programs operating in windows Vista work under the platform of Windows 10.
bugkiller
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Hi Lulav, yes I have many questions concerning the answers you gave. I truly cannot believe you have taken verses that are so plain to understand and twisted them to fit your preconceived ideas.
I did not write that. Please do not try to add or change my thoughts.
God lovingly gave Israel a covenant. It was primarily a covenant of laws. Even when we examine the 10 commandments we find seven "you shall not" and one “You shall have no". There is nothing to indicate anything about love in the 10. They were all about duty. I have searched scripture and as of yet I have not found any verses that tell me that the 10 were about love. David loved the law as did many of God's chosen, but no one said that the law was about love. Deut and Lev contain laws about loving others and of course Jesus quoted those verses. Jesus did give us a new command just as recorded in scripture. I pray you believe all that is written. Love others as I have loved you. He loves us so much He gave His life for us. We are to do the same for others. Ours, from Jesus, is a covenant of love. There is nothing in the old covenant remotely like the new command Jesus gave us. If you cannot comprehend this then I am beating a dead horse.
Mark 16:15
He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
QUOTE="Bob S, post: 69922474, member: 382831"]God shed His blood for all mankind, but before He did He gave us a new command:Jn15:9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17
This is my command: Love each other. [/QUOTE]
John 13:34
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
There is absolutely nothing in the old covenant that equals this command. John in 1Jn 3 19-24 tells how we know we belong to the truth. It is plain, simple and to my knowledge cannot be disputed. Notice he doesn't include a bunch of laws from Torah. 19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
Lulav, those are the commands of God that are given to Christians. Notice John didn't write as God the father commanded Israel to follow. Why do Messianics insist that we are under commands that were given exclusively to Israel? If we believe and love we know we belong to the truth. John didn't tell us to observe Torah did he? John plainly states what the commands are in those verses. He surely didn't lie to us did he? Why do people try to second guess where in other passages where he writes "commandments" he is referring to the 10 commandments? That is adding to scripture and when people try to make others believe he is referring to the 10 they are misguiding and bearing falsehood.
Leviticus 19:18
“‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.
Deuteronomy 6:5
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
Heb8:5....... This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
I cannot twist that scripture to read that the new covenant is but the rewarmed old covenant.
With what I am about to write is not judgment. I can only relate what I have observed and what I can personally attest. I am only looking at one part of Torah as an example of "keeping". Over several years I took account of my weekly Sabbath "keeping" and each time I came away wanting. I, like Israel, failed in my attempt to do all the Sabbath required. I was not alone. We all had the same problem, failure. Jesus, in His infinite wisdom, recognized our dilemma and gave us a new and better covenant, one that doesn't have a bunch of rituals given only to Israel. I truly believe you have no heads up on "how to keep it" any better than all who have tried before. Jesus new covenant is not about rituals given to Israel, it is all about love given to all humanity.
Thank you for your response. I will reply within the text of your post.
I had asked you what covenant you believed you were under because you had said this:
You're welcome, I'm glad to discuss this with you.
I did not write that. Please do not try to add or change my thoughts.
God lovingly gave Israel a covenant. It was primarily a covenant of laws. Even when we examine the 10 commandments we find seven "you shall not" and one “You shall have no". There is nothing to indicate anything about love in the 10. They were all about duty. I have searched scripture and as of yet I have not found any verses that tell me that the 10 were about love. David loved the law as did many of God's chosen, but no one said that the law was about love. Deut and Lev contain laws about loving others and of course Jesus quoted those verses. Jesus did give us a new command just as recorded in scripture. I pray you believe all that is written. Love others as I have loved you. He loves us so much He gave His life for us. We are to do the same for others. Ours, from Jesus, is a covenant of love. There is nothing in the old covenant remotely like the new command Jesus gave us. If you cannot comprehend this then I am beating a dead horse.
No, you cannot have that understanding from what I wrote. Please stop trying to second guess what I write.
Jeremiah was relating to Israel that God would give them a new covenant not like the one He gave them at Sinai. He didn't mention that it would also be with Gentiles. That does not indicate that he lied does it? Israel was very exclusive and had Jeremiah been given the whole fact they would have been livid.
Okay, try nullifying this one:
Mark 16:15
He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
QUOTE="Bob S, post: 69922474, member: 382831"]God shed His blood for all mankind, but before He did He gave us a new command:Jn15:9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17
This is my command: Love each other. [/QUOTE]
Oh but Jesus did in fact give us a "new" commandment:
John 13:34
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
There is absolutely nothing in the old covenant that equals this command. John in 1Jn 3 19-24 tells how we know we belong to the truth. It is plain, simple and to my knowledge cannot be disputed. Notice he doesn't include a bunch of laws from Torah. 19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
Lulav, those are the commands of God that are given to Christians. Notice John didn't write as God the father commanded Israel to follow. Why do Messianics insist that we are under commands that were given exclusively to Israel? If we believe and love we know we belong to the truth. John didn't tell us to observe Torah did he? John plainly states what the commands are in those verses. He surely didn't lie to us did he? Why do people try to second guess where in other passages where he writes "commandments" he is referring to the 10 commandments? That is adding to scripture and when people try to make others believe he is referring to the 10 they are misguiding and bearing falsehood.
I do hope you are not trying to relate those verses specifically to the 10 commandments. The 10 were just the tip of the iceberg of how we are to relate to God and our fellow man. The love laws happen to be found in the book of the law.
Leviticus 19:18
“‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.
Deuteronomy 6:5
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
Wow! We who accept Jesus as our personal Savior are not His disciples?. I agree He was speaking to His disciples, but we could use that excuse to most of what is written concerning what Jesus said. I don't buy that as an excuse not to take to heart His words. I am His disciple.
I am having a problem with your thought. Lets go back and see what it does say:
Heb8:5....... This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
I cannot twist that scripture to read that the new covenant is but the rewarmed old covenant.
AS I quoted 1John 3 it would appear that the contract was not amended. It is an entirely new. We KNOW we belong to the truth..... Jesus lived out the contract with Israel and said it was finished. the new contract with all of humanity is the Royal law of love. Jn 13:34, James 2:8
We certainly do disagree with that point. Jesus didn't "make a way", He fulfilled it, He lived it in Israel's stead. Israel broke the covenant time and time again until finally God disbanded the agreement. There is no Sinai covenant. It was broken and it no longer exists as covenant. It is finished. Jesus didn't do it, He didn't come to abolish it. He didn't have to, Israel took care of that. It is not ours to do Lulav, it is not ours to do.
With what I am about to write is not judgment. I can only relate what I have observed and what I can personally attest. I am only looking at one part of Torah as an example of "keeping". Over several years I took account of my weekly Sabbath "keeping" and each time I came away wanting. I, like Israel, failed in my attempt to do all the Sabbath required. I was not alone. We all had the same problem, failure. Jesus, in His infinite wisdom, recognized our dilemma and gave us a new and better covenant, one that doesn't have a bunch of rituals given only to Israel. I truly believe you have no heads up on "how to keep it" any better than all who have tried before. Jesus new covenant is not about rituals given to Israel, it is all about love given to all humanity.
Did you mean to use the word "will" rather than "has"? I would write "completely" before new. Actually I fail to agree with your analysis completely. Hebrews tells us it is a new and better covenant not a warmed up old covenant. Question: since Jesus made the covenant available to all mankind ( I hope we have established that He did) why would He require people to observe requirements meant only for Israel? Take the feast days for an example, they were related to Israel only. We can go deeper into that subject if you like, but I hope you understand. Even the weekly Sabbath related to Israel's flight out of Egypt as the reason for it. The Chinese didn't experience this event, so it would not have much meaning to them would it?
Morality never ceases. Anything concerning our relationship with God and our fellow man is forever. Anything concerning rituals given only to Israel certainly would not be part of our covenant with Jesus.
I like bugkiller's answer to that one.
I enjoyed the discussion. At least now you know what is in my heart. I have no animosity toward anyone trying to serve Jesus or mankind the only way they know how. However, none of us are so wise that we can ignore the Holy Spirit speaking to us through whatever media He chooses.I hope I explained that well, if you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.
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The ten commandments explain how to love. If you really love your parents you will honor them, if you really love your wife you won't commit adultery or covet your neighbors wife, if you really love your neighbor you won't steal from them, kill them, lie to them, or covet their possessions. If you love God you won't have other gods before him, you won't make graven images, you won't take his name in vain, and you won't break his Sabbath. The rest of the law is likewise, explaining either how to love your neighbor or how to love God, as God defines it, rather than what is right in our own sight. All that stuff Jesus said about helping the poor is already a part of the law for example, see Deuteronomy 14:28-29, Deuteronomy 15:1-11, Leviticus 19:9-10. It's why Jesus said the law and the prophets hand on the two greatest commandments in Matthew 22:40, they all relate to one or the other.
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Travis, can I keep from stealing because it is my duty, can I honor my parents out of duty? The answer is yes for each of the 10. Love surely is the right motive, but it doesn't appear that God made it mandatory nor is there anything in the 10 about love.
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Lulav
Y'shua is His Name
Hello Bugkiller,
I'm confused about why you felt you needed to make some remarks about what I was saying to Bob? What do you think I was trying to 'amend'?
AFA
"Those people you wish to call strangers were no strangers if they joined themselves to the Lord according to Ex 12:48 they're counted as one born in the land IOW they're part of the covenant."
You are correct, partly. I did not call them that, the Bible does.
Native-born Israelites and foreigners are equal before the LORD and are subject to the same decrees. This is a permanent law for you, to be observed from generation to generation.Numbers 15:15
For the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you, a statute forever throughout your generations. You and the sojourner shall be alike before the LORD.
For the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you, a statute forever throughout your generations. You and the sojourner shall be alike before the LORD.
If you took on the G-d of Israel you followed the same laws they did, there was no different seen between the two.
Did Paul not say: In the (Jewish) Messiah there is no Jew or Gentile?
Exactly! They (those gentiles) are part of the covenant, why would it change later?
"The NC isn't an upgrade, its a totally different covenant.Amen!! "
Sorry but it's not. Can you list what part God said he will do for you and what part you will do for him in the covenant you believe you are in? Because it has to be written down to be valid.
So your point 2 above fails.
This one?
There's no fail I can see, nor have you provided the how.
That would be because the creator of the program was only human, and he had to keep making improvements.
Understandably there isn't anyone I can compare God to, but I thought most would get the idea. .
Maybe this will help, the Sinai Covenant was an 'external drive' run manually, and the New covenant is an internal one, run automatically.
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Lulav
Y'shua is His Name
Oh Bob, I thought we could have a respectful conversation, since you asked me my beliefs, but it seems you don't want to by this opening sentence after I took all that time to respond to you.
"I truly cannot believe you have taken verses that are so plain to understand and twisted them to fit your preconceived ideas."
I was not doing that at all, I was talking back to you what I thought you meant and giving you the opportunity to explain if I got it wrong. I'm not into twisting anyones words.
God lovingly gave Israel a covenant. It was primarily a covenant of laws. Even when we examine the 10 commandments we find seven "you shall not" and one “You shall have no". There is nothing to indicate anything about love in the 10. They were all about duty. I have searched scripture and as of yet I have not found any verses that tell me that the 10 were about love. David loved the law as did many of God's chosen, but no one said that the law was about love. Deut and Lev contain laws about loving others and of course Jesus quoted those verses. Jesus did give us a new command just as recorded in scripture. I pray you believe all that is written. Love others as I have loved you. He loves us so much He gave His life for us. We are to do the same for others. Ours, from Jesus, is a covenant of love. There is nothing in the old covenant remotely like the new command Jesus gave us. If you cannot comprehend this then I am beating a dead horse.
No, you cannot have that understanding from what I wrote. Please stop trying to second guess what I write.
Jeremiah was relating to Israel that God would give them a new covenant not like the one He gave them at Sinai. He didn't mention that it would also be with Gentiles. That does not indicate that he lied does it? Israel was very exclusive and had Jeremiah been given the whole fact they would have been livid.
Okay, try nullifying this one:
Mark 16:15
He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
Oh but Jesus did in fact give us a "new" commandment:
John 13:34
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
There is absolutely nothing in the old covenant that equals this command. John in 1Jn 3 19-24 tells how we know we belong to the truth. It is plain, simple and to my knowledge cannot be disputed. Notice he doesn't include a bunch of laws from Torah. 19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
Lulav, those are the commands of God that are given to Christians. Notice John didn't write as God the father commanded Israel to follow. Why do Messianics insist that we are under commands that were given exclusively to Israel? If we believe and love we know we belong to the truth. John didn't tell us to observe Torah did he? John plainly states what the commands are in those verses. He surely didn't lie to us did he? Why do people try to second guess where in other passages where he writes "commandments" he is referring to the 10 commandments? That is adding to scripture and when people try to make others believe he is referring to the 10 they are misguiding and bearing falsehood.
I do hope you are not trying to relate those verses specifically to the 10 commandments. The 10 were just the tip of the iceberg of how we are to relate to God and our fellow man. The love laws happen to be found in the book of the law.
Leviticus 19:18
“‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.
Deuteronomy 6:5
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
Wow! We who accept Jesus as our personal Savior are not His disciples?. I agree He was speaking to His disciples, but we could use that excuse to most of what is written concerning what Jesus said. I don't buy that as an excuse not to take to heart His words. I am His disciple.
I am having a problem with your thought. Lets go back and see what it does say:
Heb8:5....... This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
I cannot twist that scripture to read that the new covenant is but the rewarmed old covenant.
AS I quoted 1John 3 it would appear that the contract was not amended. It is an entirely new. We KNOW we belong to the truth..... Jesus lived out the contract with Israel and said it was finished. the new contract with all of humanity is the Royal law of love. Jn 13:34, James 2:8
We certainly do disagree with that point. Jesus didn't "make a way", He fulfilled it, He lived it in Israel's stead. Israel broke the covenant time and time again until finally God disbanded the agreement. There is no Sinai covenant. It was broken and it no longer exists as covenant. It is finished. Jesus didn't do it, He didn't come to abolish it. He didn't have to, Israel took care of that. It is not ours to do Lulav, it is not ours to do.
With what I am about to write is not judgment. I can only relate what I have observed and what I can personally attest. I am only looking at one part of Torah as an example of "keeping". Over several years I took account of my weekly Sabbath "keeping" and each time I came away wanting. I, like Israel, failed in my attempt to do all the Sabbath required. I was not alone. We all had the same problem, failure. Jesus, in His infinite wisdom, recognized our dilemma and gave us a new and better covenant, one that doesn't have a bunch of rituals given only to Israel. I truly believe you have no heads up on "how to keep it" any better than all who have tried before. Jesus new covenant is not about rituals given to Israel, it is all about love given to all humanity.
Did you mean to use the word "will" rather than "has"? I would write "completely" before new. Actually I fail to agree with your analysis completely. Hebrews tells us it is a new and better covenant not a warmed up old covenant. Question: since Jesus made the covenant available to all mankind ( I hope we have established that He did) why would He require people to observe requirements meant only for Israel? Take the feast days for an example, they were related to Israel only. We can go deeper into that subject if you like, but I hope you understand. Even the weekly Sabbath related to Israel's flight out of Egypt as the reason for it. The Chinese didn't experience this event, so it would not have much meaning to them would it?
Morality never ceases. Anything concerning our relationship with God and our fellow man is forever. Anything concerning rituals given only to Israel certainly would not be part of our covenant with Jesus.
I like bugkiller's answer to that one.
I enjoyed the discussion. At least now you know what is in my heart. I have no animosity toward anyone trying to serve Jesus or mankind the only way they know how. However, none of us are so wise that we can ignore the Holy Spirit speaking to us through whatever media He chooses.
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Lulav
Y'shua is His Name
Many just don't understand what Love is from Gods point of view. I try to explain it like this:
The HANGER that explains the Law of LOVE-- spoken about by Jesus in Matthew 22:36-40
Which says:
"Master, which is the great commandment in the law? "Which says:
Jesus said unto him," Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment."
(Deuteronomy 6:5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.)
"And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
(Leviticus 19:18'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.)
Nothing new there at all. .
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You seem to refuse a special qualifying words "who sojourns with you." The phrase makes the verse only applicable to Israeli and those living in their country.
That's correct.
Correct again. Paul did not say everyone becomes a Jew/Israeli as you try to imply. The promise to Abraham is to the nations also. That promise is not exclusive to direct descendants.Did Paul not say: In the (Jewish) Messiah there is no Jew or Gentile?
The covenant is what changed. Besodes your implying the whole world lives in Israel according to the text. That is not so.
There are very limited details of this new covenant Jeremiah speaks of. Anyone who will read the scripture will conclude gentiles are part of this covenant even to the astonishment of Peter. Read Acts.
Excuse me I can read. I also understand English. You need to read your post very closely.
So you don't like my response and need to make a new issue about your illustration.
I did.Understandably there isn't anyone I can compare God to, but I thought most would get the idea. .
The covenant did not just change drives. That would not make it new. There is nothing to indicate a remodel or moving job.
bugkiller
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Lulav
Y'shua is His Name
"This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people."
"I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people."
That's it, that's the new covenant, Still Gods law, put instead of on parchment and animal skin, within the human mind and heart. Same words spoken at Sinai, I will be your God and you will be my people. There's not two different people, just one and just one God.
The New covenant was meant for those who were under the 'Old'. If you never were then how can the New Covenant be for you?
As it says right there in Jeremiah, that Covenant is made with the people of Israel, so if you don't join them like Ruth did, you are not part of the New Covenant.
Ruth 1:15 - 17
Then she said, "Behold, your sister-in-law has gone back to her people and her gods; return after your sister-in-law."
But Ruth said, "Do not urge me to leave you or turn back from following you; for where you go, I will go, and where you lodge, I will lodge.
Your people shall be my people, and your God, my God.
"Where you die, I will die, and there I will be buried. Thus may the LORD do to me, and worse, if anything but death parts you and me."
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You're doing what most all if not all pro law people do. I explained some key words and phrases to you. All you can do in return is use part of a sentence to establish your point. This is taking something out of context. The passage you quote from won't allow your view point as I explained.
Your saying the word "new" really is renew which the original language won't support. Furthermore the tex is self defining in that it plainly says "not according to" while you say its the same merely moved.
The above supports exactly what I said your POV is that doesn't line up with the passage.
You both refuse to listen or read the Scripture. I pointed out how the change is allowed with supporting evidence (Acts) you're in error. Pride stinks. And brain washing is just as bad. LLoJ pointed out I John 5:20 which says God gave us a mind.
I'll post it again only to be ignored -
Three Gospels say the NC is the current covenant with - This is the NT in my blood...
LK 24:44 says all has been fulfilled concerning Me in direct reference to Mat 5:17-18.
Acts clearly shows gentiles becoming Children of God without becoming obligated to the covenant issued at Sinai. It even says Christians aren't obligated to the law in Chapter 15 with a letter issued by the Apostles which includes 11 of the personal disciples of Jesus. But you won't listen. Why?
There was no NC or messiah during the life time of Ruth because the Seed hadn't come.
bugkiller
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