Hate speech & Freedom

[Yytz6]

I am so glad a Muslim commented on this thread, thank you for posting.

The theory is that Islam relies on usage of political levers and when deprived of those tends to shrink in size. The history of Christianity however says the opposite as it can thrive in cooperation with or in opposition to the state.

Personally I would not want to live in China and Christians are also having problems with the Chinese authorities which seriously undermine their quality of life and freedom of worship. I am not advocating the death of any Muslims nor any deprivation of property or anything like that. But it seems to me that the Chinese strategy may actually work to reduce the Muslim footprint in China.

Well yes if many enough are murdered, it might. You know how else China lessens the footprint of politically undesired people in China?

 

[mindlight]

Is this kind of talk really necessary? Muhammad's marriage to Aisha wasn't unusual at the point in history that it took place. Prearranged and Child marriages were common among all societies at that time and Christians and Jews were practicing this centuries before Islam existed. Child marriages continue even today in many cultures. Even in the US, my home country, marriage to children as young as 7 was allowed in the state of Delaware less than 150 years ago.

Over the course of American history, the most commonly observed age of consent was 10 years. In 1880, 37 states had an age of consent of 10 years while 10 states kept an age of consent at 12, and Delaware maintained its age of consent at seven years, having lowered it from 10 in 1871.

If you are going to label Muhammad a pedophile, you will also have to do the same with some people in the Bible and many within the Church throughout history. Once again, there was nothing at all unusual about Muhammad's marriage to Aisha and labeling him as a pedophile is not only unjust, it also damages our witness to Christ.

Granted that this historical practice was more widespread than just Arabs. But yes we tend to hold people who claim to speak for God to a higher standard and Muhammad for all his obvious strengths seems deeply culture bound as this example of having sex with 10 year old Aisha indicates. The sins of which even the Quran accuses Muhammad are not there in Jesus. So Jesus is not merely a prophet like Muhammad claims to be and his claims have that added authority also.

 

[mindlight]

This article gives some background on the situation in Germany: Facebook deletes hundreds of posts under German hate-speech law - Reuters

From the article:

“Hate speech is not allowed on Facebook,” Allan said, adding that the network had removed posts that attacked people who were vulnerable for reasons including ethnicity, nationality, religion or sexual orientation.

Complaints covered a range of alleged offences under Germany’s criminal code, including insult, defamation, incitement to hatred and incitement to crime, the report said. Of the posts that were blocked, the largest number was for insult. "

I was trying to work out how my comment fitted the legal fears here and I must admit I cannot find a match. I did not target a person nor even a group but rather a religion by suggesting that Chinese policy , such as was condemned in the article, might be an effective way of dealing with Muslims but not so effective against Christians. Now if you take the basic themes of individual insult, defamation, incitement to hatred and incitement to crime and apply them to a religion in this manner then it seems you rule out the possibility of any kind of critique of a religion. If this is how NetzDg is being applied in practice then it violates the German Grundgesetzs Article 4-1 defence of freedom of religion and opinion.

"(1) Freedom of faith and of conscience, and freedom to profess a religious or philosophical creed, shall be inviolable."

 

[hedrick]

I didn't see your posting so I can't say. But one problem is that Europeans, and many in the US, are demanding something that's impossible. There's simply too much going on on Facebook for careful moderation, even if policies could be defined carefully. There's a lot of inconsistency and error in enforcement. But at least in the EU, they don't have any choice.

In the US, I'd rather see them start with fake news. Even that is a problem, because large groups of our people (many represented in CF) accept "alternative facts." But a lot of real hate speech is combined with lies, so simply attacking clear falsehoods would make a good start here. In the EU, though, that's not enough.

 

[mindlight]

Well yes if many enough are murdered, it might. You know how else China lessens the footprint of politically undesired people in China?

There is very little evidence that anyone is dying in these camps

Shut detention camps, Turkey tells China

 

[Yytz6]

There is very little evidence that anyone is dying in these camps

Shut detention camps, Turkey tells China

"The full extent of the internment program was long obscured because many Uighurs feared speaking out. Now more are recounting experiences, including six former inmates interviewed by the Journal who described how they or other detainees had been bound to chairs and deprived of adequate food.

“They would also tell us about religion, saying there is no such thing as religion, why do you believe in religion, there is no God,” said Ablikim, a 22-year-old Uighur former inmate who asked to be identified only by his first name.

The Journal also spoke to three dozen relatives of detainees, five of whom reported that family members had died in camps or soon after their release. Many said they had struggled to determine where their relatives were being held and the state of their health."

Evidence of Abuse, Deaths in Xinjiang Camps Emerges – China Digital Times (CDT)

 

[DanishLutheran]

Well yes if many enough are murdered, it might. You know how else China lessens the footprint of politically undesired people in China?

They're less open about it than muslim areas/countries are. But no less ruthless.

 

[Yytz6]

They're less open about it than muslim areas/countries are. But no less ruthless.

I never said Muslims should be sent to Evin prison to shrink the Ummah. Being religious doesn't have to prevent one from being politically honest.

 

[DanishLutheran]

I never said Muslims should be sent to Evin prison to shrink the Ummah. Being religious doesn't have to prevent one from being politically honest.

What I'm pointing out is that China isn't doing anything that muslim areas/countries aren't already doing. China is just "better" at it, more methodical, whereas muslims are more ad hoc and arbitrary about it.

 

[Yytz6]

What I'm pointing out is that China isn't doing anything that muslim areas/countries aren't already doing. China is just "better" at it, more methodical, whereas muslims are more ad hoc and arbitrary about it.

Really? I'm not sure if they "produce" as many living kidneys to sell in the middle east.

 

[mindlight]

"The full extent of the internment program was long obscured because many Uighurs feared speaking out. Now more are recounting experiences, including six former inmates interviewed by the Journal who described how they or other detainees had been bound to chairs and deprived of adequate food.

“They would also tell us about religion, saying there is no such thing as religion, why do you believe in religion, there is no God,” said Ablikim, a 22-year-old Uighur former inmate who asked to be identified only by his first name.

The Journal also spoke to three dozen relatives of detainees, five of whom reported that family members had died in camps or soon after their release. Many said they had struggled to determine where their relatives were being held and the state of their health."

Evidence of Abuse, Deaths in Xinjiang Camps Emerges – China Digital Times (CDT)

With so many people in these camps there probably are examples of abuse to be had but this is not a systematic murder camp. The motivations are re-education. I will agree with the more devout Muslims that there is a God and that actually it is rather shallow of anyone to dispute that. I am not sure how effective Chinese re-education programmes will be if they want to turn people with a fuller theological view into atheists except with those who do not know God in the first place of course. But it also seems to me that most Muslims do not actually know God and are just echoing the sentiments of their communities in voicing his praise. So removal of social approval and indeed the penalisation of such empty posturing is probably going to be quite effective.

 

[mindlight]

Really? I'm not sure if they "produce" as many living kidneys to sell in the middle east.

There is a lot of evidence to suggest that China has been harvesting prisoner organs e,g, from the Falun Gong. Whether or not Muslims are being targeted in this way is unproven but possible.

Report: China mass harvesting organs from prisoners - CNN

 

[Yytz6]

With so many people in these camps there probably are examples of abuse to be had but this is not a systematic murder camp. The motivations are re-education. I will agree with the more devout Muslims that there is a God and that actually it is rather shallow of anyone to dispute that. I am not sure how effective Chinese re-education programmes will be if they want to turn people with a fuller theological view into atheists except with those who do not know God in the first place of course. But it also seems to me that most Muslims do not actually know God and are just echoing the sentiments of their communities in voicing his praise. So removal of social approval and indeed the penalisation of such empty posturing is probably going to be quite effective.

That's actually disgusting.

Well, it's not going to happen. Why don't you go on tourist tour in China. It might bring pleasure to your eye and comfort to your heart. That's what Jesus would do.

 

[DanishLutheran]

Really? I'm not sure if they "produce" as many living kidneys to sell in the middle east.

No, they just burn people alive, drown them in swimming pools, stone them, crucify them, rape and kill them in other ways.

 

[DanishLutheran]

Why don't you go on tourist tour in China. It might bring pleasure to your eye and comfort to your heart. That's what Jesus would do.

I'd go to China (of which I'm also quite a bit critical, especially after the ascension of Xi Jinping) before I visited any muslim-majority country again, that's for gosh darned sure.
China has an ancient history and culture that would be fascinating to get to explore.
Muslims basically zerged out of the Arabian desert and took over the cultures that already existed.