• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Hate Crimes

Caylin

Formerly Dracon427
Feb 15, 2004
7,066
316
42
Olympia, Washington
✟39,014.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
This is mainly for people who are against hate crime legislation on the grounds that we don't punish motive and all crimes are hate.

Are you for or against the different designations of killing someone such as involuntary manslaughter, voluntary manslaughter, murder 2, murder 1, etc? Why or why not?
 

SimplyMe

Senior Veteran
Jul 19, 2003
10,789
10,536
the Great Basin
✟430,200.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

I'd like to point out, also, why do we need terrorism laws as well, after all, aren't they going to be punished already by the current murder, destruction of property, attempted murder, and other similar laws? Terrorism laws are purely based on motive.
 
Upvote 0

gengwall

Senior Veteran
Feb 16, 2006
5,003
408
MN
✟29,586.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
This is mainly for people who are against hate crime legislation on the grounds that we don't punish motive and all crimes are hate.

Are you for or against the different designations of killing someone such as involuntary manslaughter, voluntary manslaughter, murder 2, murder 1, etc? Why or why not?
I have no problem with those distinctions. They are primarily differentiated on context and action.

The reality in a free society is that it is not a crime to hate. In light of that, even the term "hate crime" is, at least IMO, somewhat oxymoronic. If hate in it's unactive state can not be criminalized, niether should it be when acted on in a criminal manner. The crime is not the hate, it is the action taken because of it. It's just like "passion" We have "crimes of passion" but it is the action, not the passion itself, that is criminalized. Even the category "crime of passion" relates to the chain of events in which the crime took place. Whether or not you actually were passionate, or the relative level of your passion, is not a distinguishing factor in the categorization of the crime. We don't have different levels of crime (or actually, punishment) for those who were really, really, jealous vs. those who were really not so much jealous as had their ego bruised because their mate was sleeping with someone else.

On the other hand, we start down several slippery slopes when we begin incorporating non-criminal behaviors, attitudes, etc. into the adjudication of crime. Not only is there the potential to evolve into a "thought police" paradigm, but there is great potential that we won't consider all manifestations of hate in the legislation. So, in a wierd way, hate crime legislation is discriminatory because it only applies to certain haters and/or hatees.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OldWiseGuy
Upvote 0

WatersMoon110

To See with Eyes Unclouded by Hate
May 30, 2007
4,738
266
43
Ohio
✟36,255.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
From my understanding, the idea behind extra punishment for "Hate Crimes" is that the perpetrator is motivated by their hatred for a certain group of people, and so are more likely to commit the same crime again after being released.

A crime of passion (like killing a cheating spouse upon catching them cheating) is not likely to be repeated. But person that kills someone for belonging to a group of people isn't going to confine themself to just one person from that group, but might go after more people of that group.

Hence, since the hate crime perpetrator is still a danger to an entire group of people after committing their crime, the punishment should reflect this possible danger. At least, that is my understanding of it...
 
Upvote 0

gengwall

Senior Veteran
Feb 16, 2006
5,003
408
MN
✟29,586.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Your point is well taken. I did not mean to imply the two types of crime were synonymous. I mearly am saying that they both have elements that are a) not in and of themselves illegal, and b) very difficult to discern. At any rate, wht do you think about the potential slippery slopes I outlined? Do you fear any unintended consequences from the evolutution of hate crime legislation?
 
Upvote 0

WatersMoon110

To See with Eyes Unclouded by Hate
May 30, 2007
4,738
266
43
Ohio
✟36,255.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
I was under the impression that hate crimes were only charged when one had committed a crime. Are there any cases where one's action was not a crime of itself, but only under Hate Crime Legislation?

It would be impossible to try and arrest people for just hating a group of people. I would hope that this would never happen. But acting on that hate in an illegal way, I feel, is a different story. Like I said, I feel that there is far more possibility of that person committing future crimes for the same reason.

I would like to make a comparison to drunk drivers, in that someone who drives while intoxicated and causes a traffic accident is more likely to cause a future accident than someone who was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Thus the punishment for them is different, even though the crime might be the same.

So, I feel that the potential future danger should be taken into account, in some cases (only where the hatred can be proven). But, maybe there are some factors that I am not thinking of?
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,027,862.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
From my understanding, the idea behind extra punishment for "Hate Crimes" is that the perpetrator is motivated by their hatred for a certain group of people, and so are more likely to commit the same crime again after being released.

A crime of passion (like killing a cheating spouse upon catching them cheating) is not likely to be repeated. But person that kills someone for belonging to a group of people isn't going to confine themself to just one person from that group, but might go after more people of that group.

Hence, since the hate crime perpetrator is still a danger to an entire group of people after committing their crime, the punishment should reflect this possible danger. At least, that is my understanding of it...
Regarding the possibility of a repeat 'hate crime' it is unjust to punish the offender for a crime that he 'might commit' even though there is a strong possibility that he/she will. We release career criminals all the time knowing that they will offend again. It's all part of our criminal justice system.

owg
 
Upvote 0

GwynApNudd

Regular Member
Apr 3, 2007
114
39
✟30,630.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Your point is well taken. I did not mean to imply the two types of crime were synonymous. I mearly am saying that they both have elements that are a) not in and of themselves illegal, and b) very difficult to discern. At any rate, wht do you think about the potential slippery slopes I outlined? Do you fear any unintended consequences from the evolutution of hate crime legislation?

Regarding the possibility of a repeat 'hate crime' it is unjust to punish the offender for a crime that he 'might commit' even though there is a strong possibility that he/she will. We release career criminals all the time knowing that they will offend again. It's all part of our criminal justice system.

owg

These arguments are part of the reason that I feel "hate crime" is a bad terminology for the separate and harsher distinction from "ordinary" crimes. In my state (NJ) there is a designation of "terroristic threat" which is older than the concept of "hate crime" but similar -- although it is directed against a person, not a group. the definition is:
2C:12-3. Terroristic threats.

tab.gif
a.
tab.gif
A person is guilty of a crime of the third degree if he threatens to commit any crime of violence with the purpose to terrorize another or to cause evacuation of a building, place of assembly, or facility of public transportation, or otherwise to cause serious public inconvenience, or in reckless disregard of the risk of causing such terror or inconvenience. A violation of this subsection is a crime of the second degree if it occurs during a declared period of national, State or county emergency. The actor shall be strictly liable upon proof that the crime occurred, in fact, during a declared period of national, State or county emergency. It shall not be a defense that the actor did not know that there was a declared period of emergency at the time the crime occurred.

tab.gif
b.
tab.gif
A person is guilty of a crime of the third degree if he threatens to kill another with the purpose to put him in imminent fear of death under circumstances reasonably causing the victim to believe the immediacy of the threat and the likelihood that it will be carried out.

I would not be adverse to expanding terrorist threat (b) to bodily harm or homicide intended as a "warning" directed at other members of a protected class (e.g. race, religion, sex, orientation, etc). [The underlying assult or homicide would be a separate charge.] It is more provable than asking a jury to decide whether the suspects feelings rose to the level of "criminal hatred" during the commission of the crime. It is always better to convict on prior actions than on feelings or thoughts on the one hand, or possible future actions on the other.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gengwall
Upvote 0

Mling

Knight of the Woeful Countenance (in training)
Jun 19, 2006
5,815
688
Here and there.
✟9,635.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I was under the impression that hate crimes were only charged when one had committed a crime. Are there any cases where one's action was not a crime of itself, but only under Hate Crime Legislation?

It would be impossible to try and arrest people for just hating a group of people. I would hope that this would never happen. But acting on that hate in an illegal way, I feel, is a different story. Like I said, I feel that there is far more possibility of that person committing future crimes for the same reason.

I would like to make a comparison to drunk drivers, in that someone who drives while intoxicated and causes a traffic accident is more likely to cause a future accident than someone who was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Thus the punishment for them is different, even though the crime might be the same.

So, I feel that the potential future danger should be taken into account, in some cases (only where the hatred can be proven). But, maybe there are some factors that I am not thinking of?

There are a lot of different reasons for it. That very well may be one. Others are that, as a society, we decided that killing somebody solely because the represent a group of people you hate is a more...for lack of a legally accurate term, "evil," then killing somebody out of, say, revenge, which, in turn, is worse than killing in a fit of passion, which is worse than killing in self defense.

Also, I think the hate crime designation is tagged on to a crime to acknowledge that, while the physical action may have only been against a piece of property or one person, the attack was really on an entire community. The goal of the crime is not solely to hurt the one victim, but to spread fear through a community of people with the message "You could be next." This is why, when lynchings were at their peak, the victims were often chosen at random, or for obviously contrived and silly reasons like mocking a pig or enraging an infant. If the victims are random, than every member of the community becomes a potential victim. It is a deliberate act of psychological terrorism that interferes with the proper functioning of society more than other crimes of comparable violence.

"Hate Crime" is not a crime in and of itself, only a modifier that can be added to existing crimes. There has to be a committed crime to tag the modifier onto. The ox must be gored.

For some reason, people's objections to punishing crimes based on motivation, thought and speech, only seem to crop up where anti-gay hate crimes are concerned.

Thought and speech may be the only acts committed in the crimes of:
Treason
Conspiracy to commit [crime]
Various forms of child abuse
Soliciting (even if the acts solicited are never actually performed, soliciting for prostitution, or for sex acts with a person under the age of consent, is still a crime)

I have yet to hear or see somebody go into the "freedom of speech/thought" over these.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SimplyMe
Upvote 0

gengwall

Senior Veteran
Feb 16, 2006
5,003
408
MN
✟29,586.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
There are a lot of different reasons for it. That very well may be one. Others are that, as a society, we decided that killing somebody solely because the represent a group of people you hate is a more...for lack of a legally accurate term, "evil," then killing somebody out of, say, revenge, which, in turn, is worse than killing in a fit of passion, which is worse than killing in self defense.

Also, I think the hate crime designation is tagged on to a crime to acknowledge that, while the physical action may have only been against a piece of property or one person, the attack was really on an entire community. The goal of the crime is not solely to hurt the one victim, but to spread fear through a community of people with the message "You could be next." This is why, when lynchings were at their peak, the victims were often chosen at random, or for obviously contrived and silly reasons like mocking a pig or enraging an infant. If the victims are random, than every member of the community becomes a potential victim. It is a deliberate act of psychological terrorism that interferes with the proper functioning of society more than other crimes of comparable violence.

"Hate Crime" is not a crime in and of itself, only a modifier that can be added to existing crimes. There has to be a committed crime to tag the modifier onto. The ox must be gored.

For some reason, people's objections to punishing crimes based on motivation, thought and speech, only seem to crop up where anti-gay hate crimes are concerned.

Thought and speech may be the only acts committed in the crimes of:
Treason
Conspiracy to commit [crime]
Various forms of child abuse
Soliciting (even if the acts solicited are never actually performed, soliciting for prostitution, or for sex acts with a person under the age of consent, is still a crime)

I have yet to hear or see somebody go into the "freedom of speech/thought" over these.
Well, that was where I was going by stating that it is not a crime to "hate". You can hate all you want, and even have great latitude to express that hate demonstrably, without ever commiting a crime. At least for now.
 
Upvote 0

WatersMoon110

To See with Eyes Unclouded by Hate
May 30, 2007
4,738
266
43
Ohio
✟36,255.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
One would hope. But does hate crime legislation put us on the slippery slope that may lead to that some day?
I like to think that it doesn't. But, really, it is hard to tell.

I do have to admit that punishing hate crimes differently from other crimes is a step in that direction. But I like to believe that no further steps will be taken.

Really though, it is hard to tell what one event will lead to eventual bad consequences. Look at World War I.
 
Upvote 0

SimplyMe

Senior Veteran
Jul 19, 2003
10,789
10,536
the Great Basin
✟430,200.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I like to think that it doesn't. But, really, it is hard to tell.

I do have to admit that punishing hate crimes differently from other crimes is a step in that direction. But I like to believe that no further steps will be taken.

Really though, it is hard to tell what one event will lead to eventual bad consequences. Look at World War I.

I find it's merely a slippery slope fallacy, even Gengwell, when he asked the question originally, admitted that it was a "slippery slope". In the US there are constitutional protections that allow us to believe and speak freely. As such, I don't see hate crime statutes being used to arrest people simply for hating -- as Mling stated; " "Hate Crime" is not a crime in and of itself, only a modifier that can be added to existing crimes. There has to be a committed crime to tag the modifier onto. The ox must be gored."
 
Upvote 0

tcampen

Veteran
Jul 14, 2003
2,704
151
✟33,632.00
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Your point is well taken. I did not mean to imply the two types of crime were synonymous. I mearly am saying that they both have elements that are a) not in and of themselves illegal, and b) very difficult to discern. At any rate, wht do you think about the potential slippery slopes I outlined? Do you fear any unintended consequences from the evolutution of hate crime legislation?

All crimes have elements that in and of themselves are not a crime. It is the combination of these elements that constitute the crime. We as a free society, through our elected representative, enact laws that reflect the values of the people. Committing a crime of violence against anyone is bad. Committing the same crime against someone because of there ethnicity, nationality, race, religion, gender or sexual orientation - is seen by the community at large as being even more reprehensible.

Such acts create a greater fear within the sub-community of being targeting for such violence for no other reason than their status. As a community at large, we've decided such acts have an additional adverse impact on us all, and therefore warrant additional punishment.

These crimes are not charged often, and require very specific criteria. If you're worried about any slippery slopes, look elsewhere.
 
Upvote 0

Beanieboy

Senior Veteran
Jan 20, 2006
6,297
1,214
62
✟65,132.00
Faith
Christian
One would hope. But does hate crime legislation put us on the slippery slope that may lead to that some day?

That brings us back to the point of the OP:

Do you have a problem with murder when it is
a) thought out and planned: 1st degree
b) done unplanned out of a temporary rage: 2nd degree
c) done without the intent to kill: Manslaughter

All result in the same crime (murder), yet they are punished differently by their motivation: thought and intent.

Isn't this the same as "thought crime"?
Aren't we going down a slippery slope?

Why differentiate between terrorist, and murder/destruction of property? Don't all crimes create terror?
 
Upvote 0

Beanieboy

Senior Veteran
Jan 20, 2006
6,297
1,214
62
✟65,132.00
Faith
Christian
I like to think that it doesn't. But, really, it is hard to tell.

I do have to admit that punishing hate crimes differently from other crimes is a step in that direction. But I like to believe that no further steps will be taken.

Really though, it is hard to tell what one event will lead to eventual bad consequences. Look at World War I.

Hate Crimes were put in place to prevent such attacks as what happened to Rodney King. The gay panic defense has been used to try to excuse murder. While opponents argue that Hate Crimes will make it worse to kill someone who is gay than straight (the proposed Hate Crime law is to simply add "sexual orientation" which applies to gay/straight/bisexual and transgender), trying to use the gay-panic defense makes it less offensible to murder someone. (Ironically, gay men who are usually seen as sissies or weak or suddenly portrayed as overpowering predators.) Imagine if every woman killed a man who gave her unwanted sexual advances...

The gay panic defense led to an acquittal in a murder case in West Virginia, according to a story in a 1993 Barnes & Noble book Some Days Nothing Goes Right.

Numerous Internet sources, including Wikipedia and Answers.com, report the same passage. "The Sun-Times Wire reported in Harrisville, West Virginia, USA, that one Dean Ludwig Bethoven, aged thirty, accepted a ride home from a bar by funeral director Dent Pickman, and fell asleep in his car.

"When he woke up later at Pickman's house, he found his body covered with 'ketchup, mustard, mayonnaise, pickles - things out of the refrigerator,' and Dent Pickman licking mayonnaise off his naked body. 'I went crazy,' said Bethoven, who stabbed Pickman to death with a kitchen knife. The jury acquitted him of murder."
 
Upvote 0