Has the Age of the Gentiles come to an end?

mkgal1 said:

I don't take that as literal. Prophetic language is often symbolic.

Adam Maarschalk has done extensive research on this.. .and the conclusions he's drawn is what makes sense to me.

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I believe this is the time frame: link to full thesis - The Two Witnesses Killed by the Beast (Revelation 11:3-13)

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I take it as literal.
Like I said"Fire" is a common term to destroy your enemies these days. It's not hard to make fire down from heaven in the sight of man either. You only need to speak the word fire and low and behold, there it is.

shilohsfoal said:

I take it as literal.
Like I said"Fire" is a common term to destroy your enemies these days. It's not hard to make fire down from heaven in the sight of man either. You only need to speak the word fire and low and behold, there it is.

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Rule of first mention doesn't seem to support that. Context isn't how the word is used today....it's how the ancient Hebrew reader would understand the word.

mkgal1 said:

Rule of first mention doesn't seem to support that. Context isn't how the word is used today....it's how the ancient Hebrew reader would understand the word.

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So, you never told me the date Jesus came and raised the dead.
When exctly do you claim the seventh trump was blown?

shilohsfoal said:

fire" proceeds out of the mouths of the gentile witnesses who will occupy Jerusalem for 42 months.

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How are you concluding these are Gentiles? The passage states this:

mkgal1 said:

How are you concluding these are Gentiles? The passage states this:

Revelation verses 3-6: 3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed. 6 They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire…​

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If those verses are kept in context with the previous verse, it's obvious those witnesses of Christ are Gentiles.

If you believe they are not then you have to ask yourself something.
Who has control of Jerusalem those three and a half years? Is it the armed forces of the north or not?

Daniel 11:39 He will attack the strongest fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who acknowledge him, making them rulers over many and distributing the land for a price.

shilohsfoal said:

So, you never told me the date Jesus came and raised the dead.
When exctly do you claim the seventh trump was blown?

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I thought I did.

That raising of the dead - i believe - refers to the life given in the New Covenant. There wasn't LIFE until Christ (only death brought from Adam).....and Jesus's ministry....His death and resurrection....ascension to heaven....and coming in judgment on Jerusalem ("Son of Man coming on the clouds") fulfilled the 7th trumpet and transfer of saints into the presence of God. That was 70 AD.

mkgal1 said:

I thought I did.

That raising of the dead - i believe - refers to the life given in the New Covenant. There wasn't LIFE until Christ (only death brought from Adam).....and Jesus's ministry....His death and resurrection....ascension to heaven....and coming in judgment on Jerusalem ("Son of Man coming on the clouds") fulfilled the 7th trumpet and transfer of saints into the presence of God. That was 70 AD.

Hebrews 9:8 ~ The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing.​

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So you believe Jesus had to wait till 70 AD (after the temple was destroyed) before he could go into the most holy place, into the presence of God?

Hebrews 9:7 But only the high priest entered the second room, and then only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance.

shilohsfoal said:

If those verses are kept in context with the previous verse, it's obvious those witnesses of Christ are Gentiles.

If you believe they are not then you have to ask yourself something.
Who has control of Jerusalem those three and a half years? Is it the armed forces of the north or not?

Daniel 11:39 He will attack the strongest fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who acknowledge him, making them rulers over many and distributing the land for a price.

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I need to study more to determine whether Daniel 11 is linked with this.

Ultimately our True God had control of earthly Jerusalem as Jesus's and the prophet's words were proven true. The power of the "holy people" was scattered as Daniel had prophesied....and God's kingdom was taken from the chief priests and Pharisees.

Gup20 said:

[Luk 21:24 NASB] 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

[Rom 11:25 NASB] 25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;​

I've seen a lot of prophecy lately that talk about new eras and that the time of the Gentiles has ended (the church age). What are the thoughts of people here on that?

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Hay Gup...
As others here have touched upon, you appear to be conflating terms that scripture does not unite, (Times of thegentiles and Fullness of the Gentiles) and then adding a term that scripture does not use (age of the gentiles)

When you start on such shaky ground, you will never come up with solid scriptural footing.

Let's let scripture be our guide.

As mentioned, we know from Revelation that the Time of Gentile trampling of the Holy City was ordained to last exactly 42 months after it began... this completely eliminates any biblical possibility that it is a 2000+ year span.

As for the Fullness of the gentiles, as mentions it is a separate issue, and we need only to search the scriptures for its meaning.

The term "Fullness of the Gentiles" is oft equated with the notion of quantity, amount, or number count of Gentile believers, (as you have done in your OP) but does scripture support such a notion?

By comparing scripture with scripture we clearly see that "fullness" does not equate with "full number", but rather the fullness of Gods grace:

John 1:16
And of his fullness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

(This is especially instructive for us in that "fullness" is considered here to the the opposite of "fall", and in no way can be construed as a numeric value.)

Romans 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fullness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.

The list goes on........

The notion of fullness in the NT carries the idea of "totality of Gods blessings and grace", and not a certain number of people.

Gentile believers are not waiting to become "full partakers" of the Grace of God, rather The Gentiles are already FULL PARTAKERS of the grace of God.

The "Fulness of the gentiles" came in 2000 years ago.

There is no such thing, Biblically speaking or otherwise, as the "Age of the Gentiles" and no scripture supports such a view.

shilohsfoal said:

So you believe Jesus had to wait till 70 AD (after the temple was destroyed) before he could go into the most holy place, into the presence of God?

Hebrews 9:7 But only the high priest entered the second room, and then only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance.

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No... as you proved with Hebrews 9:7, that is not the case... it IS the case, however, that WE could not go there until then, as the very next verse testifies:

Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

Paul goes into even greater detail tying the resurrection of the Dead into Gods Heaven to the temple's destruction:

Paul clearly taught the resurrection was ABOUT TO happen in their lifetimes -- Acts 24:15; Romans 13:11, 1 Thess 4:15. Indeed the fact that Christ was called the "FIRSTFRUITS" indicates the whole harvest is present, and not thousands of years off.

Paul ties the victory of resurrection to the end of the LAW AGE, when the early followers of Jesus would cease to observe the Law of Moses (which they did observe up to AD 70). It was when the Mosaic System was destroyed that the victory of resurrection would happen: Paul writes:

1 Corinthians 15:54-56
and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up in victory where, O Death, is thy sting? Where, O Hades is thy victory?' And the sting of the death is sin, AND THE POWER OF SIN IS THE LAW

Look very closely at the saying that "death is swallowed up in victory." Look how Paul ties it to the end of the Age of the Mosaic Law and NOT the end of the New Covenant Age (which had barely even begun yet). Paul writes:

'The Death was swallowed up in victory where, O Death, is thy sting? Where, O Hades is thy victory?' And the sting of the death is sin, AND THE POWER OF SIN IS THE LAW -- 1 Cor 15:55-56

It was The Law of Moses that was preventing the saints from entering Heaven due to it's condemnation of the saints. Paul sees the victory over death to be tied to the removal of the Law Age, which was centered in the Temple system instituted by God and not destroyed until AD 70. Christ had very much to say about the destruction of the Temple.

Paul was living in the last days of the Old Testament Age when Resurrection was about to happen (Romans 13:11; Acts 24:15), -- it was even to occur in their lifetimes as Paul fully expected and taught (1 Thess 4:15 -- "WE who are alive and remain..."). Acts 24:15 says:

Acts 24:15
having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that THERE IS ABOUT TO BE a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous (Young's LITERAL translation)

Indeed, Jesus was resurrected out of Hades at AD 30 and Paul was expecting the rest of the O.T. saints to exit Hades and join Christ in Heaven's bliss very, very, soon. They hadn't yet, but Paul promised that the Hebrews 11 O.T. saints were destined to receive their promise in Paul's generation (Hebrews 11:39-40).

Does Paul tie Resurrection (which he taught was ABOUT TO happen in their lifetimes -- Acts 24:15; Romans 13:11, 1 Thess 4:15) to the end of the New Covenant Age? Absolutely not. Does Paul tie the institution of Resurrection to the end of the Old Testament Age? The answer is ABSOLUTELY YES. Paul ties the institution of Resurrection to the removal of THE OLD COVENANT LAW OF MOSES. Paul teaches that the sting and victory of death (which futurists teach have not yet been eradicated) exists due to SIN POWERED BY THE LAW OF MOSES! (1 Cor 15:56). Look at it carefully one last time:

1 Corinthians 15:54-56
and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up in victory where, O Death, is thy sting? Where, O Hades is thy victory?'[56] And the sting of the death is sin, AND THE POWER OF SIN IS THE LAW.

When the Temple was destroyed at the last trump at AD 70 the dead O.T. saints were instantly taken to Heaven to be with Christ in their eternal inheritance. They are there now and we, the living, are caught up to be with them instantly and exactly as 2 Cor 5:1-2 states:

2 Corinthians 5:1-2
For we know that if the earthly house of our tent is dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens. For most assuredly in this we groan, longing to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven

None of this of course NEGATES the future CREEDAL resurrection into the FINAL ETERNAL STATE of all things.

mkgal1 said:

I need to study more to determine whether Daniel 11 is linked with this.

Ultimately our True God had control of earthly Jerusalem as Jesus's and the prophet's words were proven true. The power of the "holy people" was scattered as Daniel had prophesied....and God's kingdom was taken from the chief priests and Pharisees.

Daniel 12:7 ~ And I hear the one clothed in linen, who is upon the waters of the flood, and he doth lift up his right hand and his left unto the heavens, and sweareth by Him who is living to the age, that, 'After a time, times, and a half, and at the completion of the scattering of the power of the holy people, finished are all these.'

Matthew 21
40Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard returns, what will he do to those tenants?”41“He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and will rent out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him his share of the fruit at harvest time.”42Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone the builders rejected​

has become the cornerstone.

This is from the Lord,

and it is marvelous in our eyes’k?​

43Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.l”45When the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they knew that Jesus was speaking about them.​

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We are discussing Luke 21,the times of the gentiles.

Luke 21:20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near.
Luke 21:21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city.
Luke 21:22 For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.
Luke 21:23 How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath against this people.
Luke 21:24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Here is the gospel of Mathew concerning the same time period in which the armed forces of the north place the abomination of desolation at the end of its three and a half year occupation.

Matthew 24:15 KJV: When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Matthew 24:16 KJV: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Matthew 24:17 KJV: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Matthew 24:18 KJV: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Matthew 24:19 KJV: And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Matthew 24:20 KJV: But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Matthew 24:21 KJV: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Remember, Daniel said those armed forces from the north occupy Jerusalem. They first obolish the daily sacrifice. 1290 days later they place the abomination of desolation.

That would put those armed forces occupying Jerusalem the same time the two witnesses do.
The two witnesses are resurrected at the tkme Jesus said was great tribulation, unlike there has ever been which would be here.

Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered.
Daniel 12:2 And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.

So who do you say is in control of Jerusalem from the time the daily sacrifice is obolished to the time the abomination of desolation is placed?

One thing I do know is "fire" does come out of the mouths of this military whether you know who it is or not.

shilohsfoal said:

So you believe Jesus had to wait till 70 AD (after the temple was destroyed) before he could go into the most holy place, into the presence of God?

Hebrews 9:7 But only the high priest entered the second room, and then only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance.

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No.....He went in as the high priest when He was on the Cross as the perfect sacrifice. He came out and demonstrated (metaphorically) the sacrifice was accepted in 70 AD....completing the feast of Atonement.

This wasn't a literal physical appearance....but based on the typology of the feasts....the "coming of the Son of Man" was fulfilled. Salvation was confirmed.

Moses was the old testament shadow of the Day of Atonement. Moses went up the mountain the first time and returned back down to find the Israelites in idolatry with the golden calf. When Moses came down the second time, he'd brought forgiveness (Deut 18:15). Jesus fulfilled what Moses shadowed.

mkgal1 said:

No.....He went in as the high priest when He was on the Cross as the perfect sacrifice. He came out and demonstrated (metaphorically) the sacrifice was accepted in 70 AD....completing the feast of Atonement.

This wasn't a literal physical appearance....but based on the typology of the feasts....the "coming of the Son of Man" was fulfilled. Salvation was confirmed.

Moses was the old testament shadow of the Day of Atonement. Moses went up the mountain the first time and returned back down to find the Israelites in idolatry with the golden calf. When Moses came down the second time, he'd brought forgiveness (Deut 18:15). Jesus fulfilled what Moses shadowed.

Hebrews 9:24-28
24For Christ did not enter a man-made copy of the true sanctuary, but He entered heaven itself, now to appear on our behalf in the presence of God.25Nor did He enter heaven to offer Himself again and again, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Otherwise, Christ would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the age to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.27Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.​

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According to the apostles, the offering Christ made for sin was excepted long before 70 AD.Youve even quoted Paul saying as much.

I'd hate to think your salvation is based upon the Roman army destroying a rock building in 70 AD.

shilohsfoal said:

According to the apostles, the offering Christ made for sin was excepted long before 70 AD.Youve even quoted Paul saying as much.

I'd hate to think your salvation is based upon the Roman army destroying a rock building in 70 AD.

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True...forgiveness was accepted prior to 30 AD....but, as Moses typified....(and as the author of Hebrews wrote) the process of the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) wasn't complete....or made perfect until 70 AD....when the High Priest Jesus (Son of Man) reappeared from the Holy of Holies.

The people were "eagerly awaiting" the reappearance of the High Priest that announced the confirmation of forgiveness of sin. Just because the destruction was literally carried out by people doesn't mean God didn't have sovereinty over the situation. This had been prophesied for centuries....even millenia...prior to it happening. The old testament is full of other examples of God judging nations through war of others.

mkgal1 said:

True...forgiveness was accepted prior to 30 AD....but, as Moses typified....(and as the author of Hebrews wrote) the process of the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) wasn't complete....or made perfect until 70 AD....when the High Priest Jesus (Son of Man) reappeared from the Holy of Holies.

The people were "eagerly awaiting" the reappearance of the High Priest that announced the confirmation of forgiveness of sin. Just because the destruction was literally carried out by people doesn't mean God didn't have sovereinty over the situation. This had been prophesied for centuries prior to it happening. The old testament is full of other examples of God judging nations through war of others.

Moses and Aaron then went into the Tent of Meeting. When they came out, they blessed the people; and the glory of the LORD appeared to all the people. Fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed the burnt offering and the fat portions on the altar. And when all the people saw it, they shouted for joy and fell facedown." (Leviticus 9:23-24)​

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The holy spirit is the conformation of the forgiveness of sins.
I knew that the exact moment I recieved it

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

shilohsfoal said:

I'd hate to think your salvation is based upon the Roman army destroying a rock building in 70 AD.

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I'm thankful yours is.
Just as much as it is based upon the Virgin Birth, The Baptism of Jesus, The 3+ years of His Incarnational earthly Ministry, His arrest, his being lashed, His carrying of the cross, His Death on the cross, His rising on the third day, His ascension into heaven, His seating at the fathers Right Hand, the Inclusion of the gentiles into the covenant years AFTER the cross, and, yes, His coming as the Lord of the Vineyard, Chief Conerstone, to Crush the wicked vinedressers, remove the Temple and make way for you to enter the Holiest of All.

Every last bit was ESSENTIAL to your Salvation.

shilohsfoal said:

The holy spirit is the conformation of the forgiveness of sins.
I knew that the exact moment I recieved it

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

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We're experiencing a mature church. That wasn't the case from 30 AD-70 AD. The Law hadn't been removed.

mkgal1 said:

We're experiencing a mature church. That wasn't the case from 30 AD-70 AD. The Law hadn't been removed.

Hebrews 9:28 ~ He will come again, not to deal with our sins, but to bring salvation to all who are eagerly waiting for him.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Romans 5:10
For since our friendship with God was restored by the death of his Son while we were still his enemies, we will certainly be saved through the life of his Son.

1 Peter 1:5
Who by God’s power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.​

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The law has never been removed.
Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them.

I don't know why you think the Romans destroyed the law. All they destroyed was a stone building that ment nothing.The Lord had already declared the temple while that stone building was still standing.

John 2:19 Jesus answered, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again."

shilohsfoal said:

The law has never been removed.
Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them.

I don't know why you think the Romans destroyed the law. All they destroyed was a stone building that ment nothing.The Lord had already declared the temple while that stone building was still standing.

John 2:19 Jesus answered, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again."

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So.....who's been following the Law of Moses since 70 AD.? It's impossible without a temple (and Jesus is the new temple).

Yes....Jesus fulfilled the Law....and then it (the old covenant) "disappeared" (there was no longer any use for it)....along with the entire temple system.

That was Jesus....not Herod's temple.