Has it gone too far?

[ahman]

Just tonight, on a current affair (in Australia) there was a story about a man who owned a shop being forced by the council to take down a nativity scene for the reason that it might offend non-christians who went to the shop. Furthermore, children in schools in the area, are no longer taught that Jesus was born and we celebrate christmas but that some believe it, and in their end of school play, there is no baby Jesus.

personally, i was totally disgusted by this on a number of levels:

a)Christmas is the occasion, and the only reason it is celebrated is because of the birth of christ, and regardless of belief this is why we celebrate it.

b) we are a multicultural country, but would there be any thought about going to Tibet and telling the residents to take down their prayer wheels because some people who live there aren't Mahayanin Buddhists and might be offended by it? of course we wouldn't! it's their city, and we work around their beliefs, and it is the same with Australia.

c)It was in HIS shop...if they didn't like the scene, they did not have to shope there, it is a complete invasion of privacy, and the right to celebrate the birth of Jesus

d)The fact that children are no longer being taught that christmas is about the birth of Jesus, is completely apalling, it turns it undisputably into a commercial holiday and just another time for businesses to grease their hair, put on a sleazy smile and rip off the public. Because it is religious means nothing.

on the whole i am completey disgusted by this and think that political correctness has gone way too far, thoughts anyone?

 

[mpshiel]

Well I agree with you that someone should be able to put up what they want in thier own shop, totally.

Since I am guessing that they never taught you that Christmas was actually THE greatest of the Roman holidays Saturnalia which was intentially "reclaimed" by the Christians plunking a totally fabricated "birthday" celebration on top of it to "christianize" it, then I fail to understand why absence of teaching about the myth of Jesus's birth on that day should upset people.

You are still free to create your own mythology about Christmas day in your churches, but a) not eveyone is a Christian, b) not every Christian keeps Xmas - it seem sensible that all the propeganda around Xmas has been removed from formal education. Or did you wish to explain why we worship green things and then celebrate the return of the Sun to save us from the darkness or mark that as the turn of the year?

 

[ahman]

three quick things.

1)can you tell me what the word christmas means?

2)If christ's birth was fabricated, explain christianity, i am well aware that he was not born on the 25th of december, but that is still the date, and still the celebration of the birth of christ, not the celebration of the 25th of december. we only celebrate
christmas because christ was born, the roman empire died out a couple of years ago...i think i was taught that much at least.

3)Why should it not be taught in schools? we teach children about rememberence day...but as soon as religion comes into it, people start to batton down the hatches, so please tell me how it is good that the true meaning of christmas (not the 25th of december) is no longer being taught in schools?

 

[Kris_J]

Just tonight, on a current affair (in Australia) there was a story about a man who owned a shop being forced by the council to take down a nativity scene for the reason that it might offend non-christians who went to the shop. Furthermore, children in schools in the area, are no longer taught that Jesus was born and we celebrate christmas but that some believe it, and in their end of school play, there is no baby Jesus.

personally, i was totally disgusted by this on a number of levels:

a)Christmas is the occasion, and the only reason it is celebrated is because of the birth of christ, and regardless of belief this is why we celebrate it.

b) we are a multicultural country, but would there be any thought about going to Tibet and telling the residents to take down their prayer wheels because some people who live there aren't Mahayanin Buddhists and might be offended by it? of course we wouldn't! it's their city, and we work around their beliefs, and it is the same with Australia.

c)It was in HIS shop...if they didn't like the scene, they did not have to shope there, it is a complete invasion of privacy, and the right to celebrate the birth of Jesus

d)The fact that children are no longer being taught that christmas is about the birth of Jesus, is completely apalling, it turns it undisputably into a commercial holiday and just another time for businesses to grease their hair, put on a sleazy smile and rip off the public. Because it is religious means nothing.

on the whole i am completey disgusted by this and think that political correctness has gone way too far, thoughts anyone?

If a mosque was going to be built across the road from your church or home, would you sign a petition against its construction?

 

[ahman]

absolutely not...i have no say in whether someone wants to build anything across the road from me, unless it is going to disturb the peace in any way...and i have no quarrel with muslims, they are perfectly nice people, they just believe something different, why should i care if they want to practice near me?

 

[Myah]

three quick things.

1)can you tell me what the word christmas means?

Christmas is the shortened form of Christ's Mass.

2)If christ's birth was fabricated, explain christianity, i am well aware that he was not born on the 25th of december, but that is still the date, and still the celebration of the birth of christ, not the celebration of the 25th of december. we only celebrate
christmas because christ was born, the roman empire died out a couple of years ago...i think i was taught that much at least.

The Roman empire might have died but it's influence lives on. Our months for example...road systems, taxes, systems of government (ie Senate etc)

Christianity isn't based on the date of his birth, but of Christ's teachings and his death. And the date was chosen by the church to coincide with pagan holidays, to make it more attractive for those who did practice pagan beliefs so they would come to church and be converted.

3)Why should it not be taught in schools? we teach children about rememberence day...but as soon as religion comes into it, people start to batton down the hatches, so please tell me how it is good that the true meaning of christmas (not the 25th of december) is no longer being taught in schools?

Because not everyone is a christian and some people don't want religious beliefs forced upon a child.

 

[ahman]

christmas is a recognised australian public holiday...is it really influencing the child to teach them fully why it is a public holiday?

also, christianity is kinda centralised around christs birth...note CHRISTianity, christ had to be born to teach, and i don't think it is a terrible thing to celebrate his birthday, and i did already state that it is not his exact date of birth but i don't think it's going to change, do you really mind that much? it's a celebration of his birth, not his birth-date.

shortened for of christ's mass...fancy that, yet, it is wrong to teach people that this is so because they might be influenced to believe something which is religious. if we follow that token, isn't it wrong to teach these children that atheism is the way and that all the other religions are just beliefs so we won't teach our children. i find that disturbing. think of all the slander that muslims get, it's not right, and it generally comes from a horrible lack of understanding. teaching a child that christmas is a celebration of the birth of jesus, and saying that is the true spirit of christmas is nothing short of telling the child just how it is. You don't have to celebrate christmas but if you choose to, you should at least know what you are celebrating.

teaching children this is important, and in my opinion neccesary, leaving out some elements of education because the child may be influenced is rubbish, not teaching them would increase discrimination and ignorance. knowing is not believing.
instead of teaching children nothing of religion, and leaving them completely unaware (as they are believing what they are taught anyway, which is atheism) i think that children should be taught all religions and world views so that they can make an educated decision and it can be clear that there is no bias. plus it would do the world a lot of good in terms of tolerance and enhancing the global community.

 

[Kris_J]

absolutely not...i have no say in whether someone wants to build anything across the road from me, unless it is going to disturb the peace in any way...and i have no quarrel with muslims, they are perfectly nice people, they just believe something different, why should i care if they want to practice near me?

Thats great then. I agree with you if you say that it is unfair that the Nativity scene is banned from a shop window.

However, I cannot imagine anyone complaining about the Nativity scene anyhere during Christmas time - it seems that those people banning the tradition does so without such complaints.

I'm sure more people complain about half naked people on posters on the side of a bus than the nativity scene. Why don't they do something about them? It makes you wonder what "persecution" game is being played.

 

[ahman]

yes, the people did, a spokesman from the muslim community, a lebanese feller, said that he had no quarrel with the nativity scene and thought it was wrong that the man had to take it down, he felt that he had just as much right to his beliefs as the next person.

in answer to your question, how much money does a nativity scene make?

 

[Kris_J]

Nah. I was wondering why they would even pay attention to the complaint aside from using it as a pro-Christian media frenzy of "we are being persecuted".

Did that same muslim complain about the buddhist statues on the Chinese shop front?

How about the Lions at Chinatown Gates?

Its completely silly to take anything of that sort down.

 

[ahman]

i couldn't tell you, i can't remember his name, and he was only speaking about the nativity scene i think...

yes, i don't know why they would either, but i don't agree that religious openness should be discouraged, i think the opposite, people need to be made aware of other people's points of views, not shut them away so that nobody get's their knickers in a knot.

especially in australia where we put ourselves up there and say we are multicultural, yet there the council was, condemning the religion brought over from england. something smacks of inconsistency to me

 

[lismore]

absolutely not...i have no say in whether someone wants to build anything across the road from me, unless it is going to disturb the peace in any way...and i have no quarrel with muslims, they are perfectly nice people, they just believe something different, why should i care if they want to practice near me?

Think about it. The prayer call at 5am. I live two streets from a mosque and have to listen to those plaintive tones extolling the virtues of mahommet everyday

 

[ahman]

so long as they do not disturb the peace i said, i don't think it is practical or fair for a mosque to be that loud in a suburban area at 5am. but if they kept their calls within the mosque, so it didn't disturb other people then that'd be all good. much the same with the nativity scene, nobody was forced to go in and look at it were they.

 

[Machjo]

Good point about noise comming from the mosque. We must be careful though, because we can argue the same about church bells, couldn't we?

 

[mpshiel]

christmas is a recognised australian public holiday...is it really influencing the child to teach them fully why it is a public holiday?

also, christianity is kinda centralised around christs birth...note CHRISTianity, christ had to be born to teach, and i don't think it is a terrible thing to celebrate his birthday, and i did already state that it is not his exact date of birth but i don't think it's going to change, do you really mind that much? it's a celebration of his birth, not his birth-date.

shortened for of christ's mass...fancy that, yet, it is wrong to teach people that this is so because they might be influenced to believe something which is religious. if we follow that token, isn't it wrong to teach these children that atheism is the way and that all the other religions are just beliefs so we won't teach our children. i find that disturbing. think of all the slander that muslims get, it's not right, and it generally comes from a horrible lack of understanding. teaching a child that christmas is a celebration of the birth of jesus, and saying that is the true spirit of christmas is nothing short of telling the child just how it is. You don't have to celebrate christmas but if you choose to, you should at least know what you are celebrating.

teaching children this is important, and in my opinion neccesary, leaving out some elements of education because the child may be influenced is rubbish, not teaching them would increase discrimination and ignorance. knowing is not believing.
instead of teaching children nothing of religion, and leaving them completely unaware (as they are believing what they are taught anyway, which is atheism) i think that children should be taught all religions and world views so that they can make an educated decision and it can be clear that there is no bias. plus it would do the world a lot of good in terms of tolerance and enhancing the global community.

I can see you have strong feelings about this. But please understand that others have...no feelings about it or negative feelings about it. Besides, I am sure if you asked a young child what Christmas is about, they would know the answer right away: The great god Santa whose supernatural and miraclulous acts every year satiate the greed of a new generation.

Also, many feel that Christ's life, ministry, death and ressurection are as if not more important than a infant passing through hip bones. But you can feel what you want. What I don't understand is where you seem so insensed that every single person does not want to share your view. I would not want my child going to a public school to have to be feed the large heaping of lies involved with Christmas (or Christ mass if you prefer), like for instance the unbelievably inaccurate and bogus nativity plays (like how Jesus was about 2 by the time the wise men came instead of a few days old).

Now maybe if they taught more about Herod's genocide, I might approve it more as school curriculum.

But for a large part of the world, I think there is very little about the Christmas season that is centralized around the birth of Christ. Indeed, it would appear from Jer 10:6 that many of the traditions of the Christmas are not only ancient sacred grove worship but expressly forbidden according to the bible - do you have a Christmas tree I wonder?

 

[ahman]

hmm, well, i must say, that i really don't understand where you are coming from...probably my fault, but i still don't really get it at all.

i still feel that it is right to educate people fully about things rather than to leave out bits that some people think its best their child not know, the more knowledge the child has the better, this includes the festivals and such of other world views, not just christianity. and i also believe people should have the right to be proud of what they believe in and display that.

 

[mpshiel]

I concur, and when your local school holds a passover play, or erects a temporary dwelling during the harvest festival, let me know. Where I come from we do celebrate not only the big Christmas festivals but Chinese new year, several of the Jewish high days and a couple pagan/goddess festivals. I would like more resprestation of Japanese, Buddist and other eastern festivals but so far there isn't enough representation to educate.

My partner and I are holding a winter party for Christians, pagans, athiests, agnostics alike (We personally don't keep the Macabbian Festival) - so come on over since we will be serving: vegans, vegitarians, wheat intolerant, lactose intolerant, allergic to nuts, allergic to tomatos, non-drinkers and those with Immune Difficiency Disorders - just let us know, so we can add your religion and/or allergy to our chart (but no we won't have a tree)

 

[GMRELIC]

Just tonight, on a current affair (in Australia) there was a story about a man who owned a shop being forced by the council to take down a nativity scene for the reason that it might offend non-christians who went to the shop. Furthermore, children in schools in the area, are no longer taught that Jesus was born and we celebrate christmas but that some believe it, and in their end of school play, there is no baby Jesus.

personally, i was totally disgusted by this on a number of levels:

a)Christmas is the occasion, and the only reason it is celebrated is because of the birth of christ, and regardless of belief this is why we celebrate it.

b) we are a multicultural country, but would there be any thought about going to Tibet and telling the residents to take down their prayer wheels because some people who live there aren't Mahayanin Buddhists and might be offended by it? of course we wouldn't! it's their city, and we work around their beliefs, and it is the same with Australia.

c)It was in HIS shop...if they didn't like the scene, they did not have to shope there, it is a complete invasion of privacy, and the right to celebrate the birth of Jesus

d)The fact that children are no longer being taught that christmas is about the birth of Jesus, is completely apalling, it turns it undisputably into a commercial holiday and just another time for businesses to grease their hair, put on a sleazy smile and rip off the public. Because it is religious means nothing.

on the whole i am completey disgusted by this and think that political correctness has gone way too far, thoughts anyone?

I totally agree that it is wrong telling him to remove it from his own store window, this is carrying it too far. If someone doesn't want to celebrate Christmas that is thier business, but if they want to that is thier business also. I am a very festive person, I really decorate my store, and my house with alot of Christmas lights and yes I have several nativity scenes at both of them, I would be quite offended if I was told that I would have to take them down, because it is my property, I find them pretty, and joyful. I also have a santa clause waterskiing lit up on my property, a santa riding a motorcycle, a santa riding a alligator, a 14' angel and alot of other things, I have never had a complaint, over 200 items lit up on my property.
I personally don't think it is up to the school to teach the children about Jesus, It is the responsibility of the childrens parents. there are alot of people that are not Christian, that are of other religions, or of no religion and don't want Christianity forced on thier children, I don't think it should be disallowed from the school, but it should not be forced on children, who's parents are of a different belief than Christianity.