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Has anyone read David E. Taylor's book Face to Face Appearences from Jesus ?

Biblicist

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Before we can make any sense of verse 18, we first need to place it in context with the verses that precede it where Jesus tells us that he will soon be sending the Holy Spirit to reside within us. Verse 18 is interesting in that we know that Jesus does not dwell within us yet he tells that he will be in us.

The only way that we can understand this text is that as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are of one essence, then Jesus is present within us through the Spirit; this does not mean that either the Father or the Son are physically residing within us, unlike that of the Holy Spirit and this is as far as we can take it.
 
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jamadan

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Exactly!

For Life Warrior . . . So just as we know from Scripture that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, He is also called the 'Spirit of Jesus'. The Holy Spirit is a distinct person, fully God in His own right, yet since He is One with the Father and One with the Son, when He is dwelling in us, we can truly say Jesus lives in us or the Father lives in us from a relational perspective. However, to be more specific, it is the Holy Spirit who lives in us while the Father remains on the Throne in Heaven and Jesus is seated at His right hand. Jesus will not return physically until the end, so he remains in Heaven.

John 14 shows us, "Philip said to Jesus, "Lord, show us the Father. That is all we need." Jesus answered, "Philip, I have been with you for a long time. So you should know me. The person that has seen me has seen the Father too. So why do you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you truly believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?"

We can use that exact Scripture in examining Taylor's claims. So when a David Taylor says we don't have intimacy with God because we aren't seeing Jesus face to face, he's showing inexcusable ignorance. He uses Moses meeting with God in the Tent of Meeting as an example of what we're supposed to have, yet he fails to comprehend that Moses had less than we as disciples of Christ have today. How so? Because Moses had to meet with the Holy Spirit in the Tent of Meeting and all of history views him as extraordinarily blessed for it. But WE have that same Holy Spirit dwelling inside of us leading and guiding us every waking and sleeping moment of our existence. We don't need the Tent of Meeting . . . we ARE the Tent of Meeting. We don't need to see God face to face, we have Him dwelling inside of us . . . the ultimate intimacy, the fulfillment of the martial intimacy foreshadowed by Solomon's Song, just as a man and woman become one flesh through marriage and consummation, we become one with God through salvation and the Baptism in the Holy Spirit where He fills us and unites with us.

In terms of relationships, here's the best and truest example I can give. We know lots of people face to face, don't we? I have face to face conversations with dozens of people every day. It doesn't mean I have intimacy with them. Now, I have one wife whom I have made specific vows with in marriage and having consummated that marriage, we are spiritually one flesh, the ultimate in intimacy, no relationship, including that of parent and child can equal husband and wife in terms of intimacy. So my relationship with my wife is far closer than any face to face relationship I can have with anyone. We have that same thing with the Holy Spirit, who is Jesus and the Father, three in one. There is no way to get more intimate with God than what you just experienced in being Baptized in the Spirit the other day. That was your 'consummation' (if you will) where He came to fill and dwell within you, just as a husband does with a wife in marriage. That was the start of that relationship, not a one time experience. You already have had a far better relationship with God than Moses ever had.

When you are hearing people like Taylor teach we lack intimacy because we don't have this special experience he's promoting, that's called gnosticism, which is a heretical movement of Satan that has attacked the church from the very beginning claiming special knowledge and special experiences that don't line up with the Word of God and the Spirit of God for we worship God in spirit and in truth.
 
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Alive_Again

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I've been meaning to respond to this, but it slipped by me!

Correct. But we are not there in person. We cannot be while we are still in our sinful bodies

Somewhat speculative since we cannot call what God cleansed unclean. I think it is more a matter of spiritual defilement (plus the opportunity) that prevents people from going to the throne.

We know Enoch and Elijah are both in Heaven in physical form.
...We are seated with Christ at the right hand of God in faith, above all principality and power. We have that faith through in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
The "in Him" thing is mysterious indeed! You truly are seated In Him there. Yet, your physical body is right here. It is difficult to form hard-fast doctrines since our knowledge and understanding truly is in part.

...He told them that He must go to His Father so that the Holy Spirit could be sent to indwell believers.
He was already with them, was He not? Also, in another gospel, He breathed on them and they received the Spirit of God. Truly He would not have come in the manner that He did without Jesus' ascension. I think it was the position of Him as High Priest to fulfill the covenant that enabled the Spirit of God to come and fill the church with power.

He has always been on the earth as declared in the scriptures. I believe the translation of the Word there is a little lacking in fullness.

If Jesus has appeared in person to people, this has to mean that the Second Coming has already come.

Well, we say "in person". Are we not splitting hairs? He appeared to you as you described earlier. I doubt that He left the place in Heaven He occupies, and I also believe that He "gets' around" Heaven too. He's the Son of God. In the Word where it says that when He returns again in like fashion, the angel was speaking of His return in judgment. We call this the "second coming", but He moves among His Body freely and like yourself, He has appeared to many thousands and thousands of people. It's probably more a little striving over words and we basically agree that He is "appearing" all over the place (just like yours)!

He warned His disciples that false prophets will say "here is Jesus", and "there is Jesus", but do not believe them.
And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
Mark 13:21-23

Is He not speaking of the perilous times where lying signs and "wonders" are performed. When they say, "He is here!" They are saying the worker of these lying signs will say that they are the Christ. When He comes for His people, it will be first for His church and not as the deceivers of the world will say.

To say that God can do anything is a human philosophical notion, and is not consistent with His Word.

That's true. He won't violate His Word. In the context of this discussion, we're saying (Taylor) that when Jesus says He will manifest Himself, that He wants to take it to a higher level than the general expectation of the church. No doubt appearing much like He did to you. No argument at all really.

...He is not a "law to Himself" in the sense that He behaves irrationally and haphazardly. Jesus will not say that He is going away, and then on the spur of the moment decide to come back in person to selected individuals.
He will be with us always, till the end. His decision to manifest Himself to those He wants to is not a self-willed act in defiance to the Word. I believe it is the real fulfillment of the intent of the Word. I believe it is that way for many promises. We've barely tasted the manifestation of God like He wants and will.
I think this agrees perfectly with what Taylor is saying. It's time for His people to get this into their spirits and cultivate a greater expectation (based on your paying the price).

If you don't understand the clear and unmistakable things that Jesus said in plain language, it might mean that you are trying to "spiritualise" Scripture instead of taking what Jesus said literally.
I believe in taking it as it is! If he said He would manifest Himself, then who are we to say otherwise? We are just judging based on our experience.

It all agrees and of course that is the only way it would work. We just have something of a "box" that we think God is confined to in the way that He manifests, that's all.
If Jesus is, in person, seated at the right hand of the Father in glory, and the actual presence of God with us is the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, then that is the reality.

I said "I will be with you". "I will come to you."

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
John 14:23

There's a lot more to the "presence of God" than usually meets "the eye". A lot more to His omnipresence than our perception.

I understand caution. Yet you said you saw Him and you didn't feel that was a counterfeit. It was personal to you because you were the only one at that time to see Him. So it is with many of these appearances.

If you read Taylor's book, you'll probably find that it preaches a deeper relationship, greater hope and expectation, with the reward much like you received at one time. It happens to Taylor a lot and who wouldn't want that?
..."I am not interested in meeting Jesus until I see Him in Glory. Get behind me satan! I resist your counterfeiting deception in the name of Jesus!".
I guess it's all about understanding and maybe the book might broaden your horizon a little. On the one hand it's important because you'll be prone to view Taylor and others who see Jesus as deceivers. Of course we want to know it for what it is, but being open at least leaves the possibility of some increase.
 
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Alive_Again

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I guess nothing happened
The Lord doesn't work on our timetable. We work on His.

I went to Christ for the Nations bookstore the other day and was looking over the book and was struck by how anointed it is. It's all about faith and cultivating relationship. It is so obviously without objection that to not see the prize means that that person's sight must be limited.

I don't judge you, but I would encourage you to resist any thoughts resembling unbelief, because a higher walk is at stake.
 
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Alive_Again

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When you are hearing people like Taylor teach we lack intimacy because we don't have this special experience he's promoting,

This seems to indicate you haven't read the book.
What he often says is that you pursue the Lord with the expectation of a faith filled seeker, hopeful that what you seek may come to pass at any time.

When you read of the journey he took and the price he paid for it, it is intended for the reader to want to replicate his experience with the reward of a similar outcome.
Since the Lord doesn't prefer one over another (which he mentions), then the Holy Spirit can open the eyes of the humble seeker and his subsequent walk to be one of excitement at the greater fulfillment of John 14 "I will manifest Myself". Really, like every other promise God gives us (howbeit in the Word), it's for everyone, but the benefits will only come to pass for those who meet the conditions -- Inclining, listening, hearing, doing, waiting with patience, hoping, reaping the promise.

No, this is the behavior of someone with a SOS (Solomon) walk. It eludes most believers and hardly seems relevant to many others. The fact is, it is there because it is intended to reflect the walk of the groom and His betrothed.

The SOS book is a song of love. Love songs really only make sense to those who are in love.
It's one thing to "have been in love", but to those in love, they are all for you. Taylor wants to awaken the lover with those who have either forgotten their first love, or with those whose expectation was too low (having been educated by those taught to expect less).

It's up to you to decide which camp to be in. Really, which one you're already in to actually hear and expectantly seek. For those who hear in the distant background, the call enter into this leaves a startling promise for those who would begin to hear and dare to believe.

Read the book and look at it like David was seeking out a lover. Watch the Father's response to this pursuit. Look at how Jesus responds and listen carefully for the promise given Taylor for those who hear and believe.
 
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whatfor

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Actually I was hoping to hear something, I have not got an opinion on it.
 
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