hard to believe

[JesusFreak4545]

Even after being raised in a Christian home, I find the Christian view of God, heaven, and hell to be hard to believe because it seems so unfair to me. I have listen 3 reasons why I feel this way in 3 separate posts.

Do humans have the capacity and should they have the responsibility to make decisions that affect their eternity?

We are given an extremely short time to make these decisions. Our minds cannot comprehend eternity, but we are supposed to decide how we are going to spend it?

And what about people who have psychological things that blind them from the Christian way. Take, for example, someone who grew up in another part of the world where everyone believes another religion. When something is taught to someone as truth from day 1, it will be pretty hard to convince them otherwise. So if someone was to tell them that what they believe is actually untrue, they will probably not believe you. But that is not their being stubborn, it is just the way God wired our brains.

 

[sklippstein]

First.......there is nothing impossible for God. I've seen many convert because their hearts were searching for the truth. God will lift the blindness from their eyes and reveal his truth, if someone is truly seeking.


As far as someone who has mental disabilities......they will not be held accountable for what they can not comprehend.

 

[Hobokinite]

Do humans have the capacity and should they have the responsibility to make decisions that affect their eternity?

We do. That's why there are consequences to sin, but PRAISE GOD we have the chance to repent and make things right!

 

[Blessed-one]

We are given an extremely short time to make these decisions.

that reminds me of LOTR the ents calling the hobits hasty. If we were that hasty, then the amount of time was enough. I think it's enough, 100 years (at most)......

 

[mixaleena]

17th February 2003 at 12:11 PM JesusFreak4545 said this in Post #1

Even after being raised in a Christian home, I find the Christian view of God, heaven, and hell to be hard to believe because it seems so unfair to me. I have listen 3 reasons why I feel this way in 3 separate posts.

Do humans have the capacity and should they have the responsibility to make decisions that affect their eternity?

We are given an extremely short time to make these decisions. Our minds cannot comprehend eternity, but we are supposed to decide how we are going to spend it?

And what about people who have psychological things that blind them from the Christian way. Take, for example, someone who grew up in another part of the world where everyone believes another religion. When something is taught to someone as truth from day 1, it will be pretty hard to convince them otherwise. So if someone was to tell them that what they believe is actually untrue, they will probably not believe you. But that is not their being stubborn, it is just the way God wired our brains.

If you think about it, 'fair and unfair' are actually pretty relative terms. What you think is fair and what God thinks is fair are two completely different things.

If you think about it God gave Adam and Eve the responsibility of tending the Garden of Eden for eternity far as we understand, so I believe he believes we are capable to make decisions that affect the way our eternity turns out. God gave Adam and Eve the capacity to make the first eternal decision, to sin...Not to mention they did it in a pretty short amount of time (within 120 years). If they had the capacity to do it I do believe we also will be held responsible for our actions (or inactions).

I do agree with sklippstein about people who cannot comprehend the Gospel not being held accountable. God knows the heart and knows who truly comprehends the Gospel and who doesn't. I do believe that the most common thing though that may 'blind people from the Christian way' is quite frankly, sin.

As for someone not believing something that contradicts what they have always been taught, I do believe this is a clear example of our inability to get past the "limits" that we have as human beings. God can do anything. Remember it is not us who changes hearts, it is always God.

Hope this helps... Love in Christ, Mixee.

 

[rstrats]

mixaleena,

re: "I do agree with sklippstein about people who cannot comprehend the Gospel not being held accountable..."

What about those who completely comprehend the Gospel, but who have a lack of belief in the existence of a supreme being?

 

[mixaleena]

If they comprehend it then they have a choice they can accept it as truth or reject it and face the consequences.

 

[Bsign24]

When it comes to one knowing the Lord; especially one who is in a world of darkness, I agree with skippstein in the fact that nothing is impossible for God. He created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. But we must remember that it is the Holy Spirit of God that convicts one to seek the truth and accept Christ as his/hers Savior and the only way to salvation.

 

[MY-LIFE-IS-IN-YOU-LORD]

I pretty much agreee wth the rest of the replys.
Nothing is impoosible for GOD!
GOD gave us a free will, to choose what we want. GOD will not force HIMSELF on no body.
GOD gave us this choose because HE is a fair GOD!
Yo see HE could have made us without a mind of our own and we all would have been the same. HE gave it to us so we can openly and honestly accept HIM and HIS love. To be are own person and live our own live.


these who are too young or who have an mental illness and can not comphend the love and grace of JESUS CHRIST is not going to be held accountable.

these who have a sound mind well because we are given the chice to live in heaven with JESUS or burn in hell.

for me it is simply i choose to love and accept that JESUS loved me enough to die on a cross for me so I have the chioce to go to heaven! Without JESUs we all would be died in our sins!

thank you JESUS for loving me enough to die for me so I can live forever with YOU!

 

[TWells]

17th February 2003 at 06:11 PM JesusFreak4545 said this in Post #1

Do humans have the capacity and should they have the responsibility to make decisions that affect their eternity?

We are given an extremely short time to make these decisions. Our minds cannot comprehend eternity, but we are supposed to decide how we are going to spend it?

And what about people who have psychological things that blind them from the Christian way. Take, for example, someone who grew up in another part of the world where everyone believes another religion. When something is taught to someone as truth from day 1, it will be pretty hard to convince them otherwise. So if someone was to tell them that what they believe is actually untrue, they will probably not believe you. But that is not their being stubborn, it is just the way God wired our brains.

Man was created in the image of God. Thus, we have the ability to reason and make decisions based on evidence and right and wrong. We have also been given a easy decision to make - eternal fellowship with God or eternal seperation from God. The Gosepel is easy enough for a child to understand. (John 3:16)

I would also argue that we are given more than enough time to make our desicion, 2 Peter 3:9 tells us that God is patient toward us "not wanting any to perish but that all should reach repentence." Where we screw things up - is what we do with the time we are given. Plain and simple we waste it, we ignore God and pursue more imporant things to us, namely sin. For years I ignored God and pushed him to the back of my mind delaying and putting off the desicion and trusting that I can worry about it later. I was having to much fun and didnt want to hinder that. I believe on Judgement Day those that are condemned will have no excuse God can revisit with them every moment and split second they ignored his calling and put him off. Romans 1:18-23 speaks about God making his existence obvious through his creation and verse 20 states plainly "...they are without excuse."

Your third point is a little tougher because is your not careful it can lead to universalism. Romans 2:13-16 tells us:

"<SPAN class=verse-num>13&nbsp;</SPAN>For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.<SPAN class=verse-num>14&nbsp;</SPAN>For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. <SPAN class=verse-num>15&nbsp;</SPAN>They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them <SPAN class=verse-num>16&nbsp;</SPAN>on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus."

Above all&nbsp;God is just and will judge righteously. If your troubled by the doctrine of hell (who isnt?) You might want to pick up&nbsp;a copy of "The Case for Faith" by Lee Strobel, in it there is a interesting interview with JP Moreland about Hell and common misconceptions about it.

 

[eutychus37]

Humans don't have the capacity to make these decisions. We're sinners, and because we're sinners, we're depraved (Romans 8:7). We're not capable of good (true goodness). Before anybody has to turn to God, first God has to softern their hardened, sinners' hearts.

Romans 8:13 says, "For if you keep on following [your sinful nature], you will perish. But if through the power of the Holy Spirit you turn from it and its evil deeds, you will live."

In order for there to be a change, God has to be working in that individual's life. And because nothing's impossible with God, he can be a vehicle for one's change in attitudes and outlooks on life - no matter if he's been taught that all his life or not.

I believe that those who have not heard the Gospel and/or those who have rejected the Gospel will face eternity in hell. The only way to eternal life is through Jesus - no excuses (even though I do believe tGod shows mercy in judgment to the mentally handicapped - sorry if it sounds like I'm contradicting myself). Some may say that it's not fair, but welcome to life under a sovereign God. It's not fair that we even get to talk to Him...

 

[DeputyDan]

Some of these concerns (but not all of them) are addressed in the book of Romans.

 

[TWells]

3rd March 2003 at 06:22 AM eutychus37 said this in Post #11


I believe that those who have not heard the Gospel and/or those who have rejected the Gospel will face eternity in hell. The only way to eternal life is through Jesus - no excuses (even though I do believe tGod shows mercy in judgment to the mentally handicapped - sorry if it sounds like I'm contradicting myself). Some may say that it's not fair, but welcome to life under a sovereign God. It's not fair that we even get to talk to Him...

Well, from a Calvinist perspective you are contradicting yourself as your implying that God is basing his desicion to extend grace to that person because of their handicap.

 

[rstrats]

mixaleena,

re: “If they comprehend it then they have a choice they can accept it as truth or reject it and face the consequences. “

Although you didn’t address your post to anyone, I’ll assume it is meant for me.

Are you implying that a person has the ability to CHOOSE to believe that someone or something does or doesn’t exist?

 

[mixaleena]

I do believe a person has the ability to choose to believe that someone or something doesn't exist, yes. Could you be a little more specific about what you were asking though? I am not sure how to answer your question...
Thanks.

Mixee.

 

[Mr.Cheese]

Concerning people who grew up in a different culture all their lives:
Culturally, nothing could have sounded more absurd, more ridiculous than the Christian faith in the Greco-Roman world.
But lookie at what happened in spite of things.

 

[rstrats]

mixaleena,

I have never been able to actually consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief in a supreme being or to believe that it is possible to become a more compassionate person. Since you seem to be implying that you can CHOOSE to believe something, I wonder if you might explain how you do it? What do you do at the last moment to make your lack of belief instantly change to belief?

 

[mixaleena]

mixaleena,

I have never been able to actually consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief in a supreme being or to believe that it is possible to become a more compassionate person. Since you seem to be implying that you can CHOOSE to believe something, I wonder if you might explain how you do it?

I am still not sure exactly what you are asking rstrats...Can you give me an example of the beliefs that you have that you were not able to choose? Maybe I will have a better understanding of what you are getting at?

Are you asking me how I choose to believe in something?
Let me try to answer based on what I believe you are asking (if I am wrong let me know).

I am 24, married, female and I own two cats. Do you believe me? (This one is easy, look in my profile.) You can choose to believe that I lied in my profile, or you can choose to believe I have told the truth. Whichever one of those you believe is going to decide what you choose to believe about my statement.

Christ died for our sins and rose again, and if we believe and confess with our mouths that He is Lord we will be saved. Do you believe me? (This one is easy too, look in Romans 10:9, this one requires faith, but it is still a choice either way. You can choose whether or not you believe the Bible is the infallible Word of God.)

Those are beliefs that are chosen.
You have the evidence and you choose what you believe to be true based on that evidence given you. That is how we formulate what we believe as far as anything goes...at least that is how I normally do it.

What do you do at the last moment to make your lack of belief instantly change to belief?

You weigh the evidence and then decide what is truth.

Am I understanding you?

Mixee.

 

[rstrats]

mixaleena,

re: “Can you give me an example of the beliefs that you have that you were not able to choose?”

A few would be: That the print and broadcast media is mostly liberal, that the earth orbits the sun, that the Ford Ranger is more reliable than the Chevy S10, that chili shouldn’t have beans in it, that my dad loves me, that leprechauns do not exist, that beliefs can not be consciously CHOSEN.


re: “Are you asking me how I choose to believe in something?”

Well, let’s see - I asked: “Since you seem to be implying that you can CHOOSE to believe something, I wonder if you might explain how you do it?” So yes, I would have to say that that is what I am asking.


re: “I am 24, married, female and I own two cats. Do you believe me?”

I have a lack of belief either way.


re: “You can choose to believe that I lied in my profile, or you can choose to believe I have told the truth. “

If I could do that I wouldn’t be asking you to explain how it is done.


re: “Christ died for our sins and rose again, and if we believe and confess with our mouths that He is Lord we will be saved. Do you believe me?”

I have a lack of belief either way.


re: “ You can choose whether or not you believe the Bible is the infallible Word of God.”

Again, if I could do that I wouldn’t be asking you to explain how it is done.


re: “You weigh the evidence and then decide what is truth.”

And that is what I would like to learn. How do you do that - CHOOSE to believe? What do you do that allows you to say: “Okay, I have obtained information about “X” and while I still do not believe that “X” exists, I am going to CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that “X” exists and - poof - I now believe that “X” exists? Perhaps you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.” So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

 

[mixaleena]

Well, I don't believe in leprechauns. So I CHOOSE not to believe they exist, based on lack of evidence.

I believe in God. I CHOOSE to believe in God based on the evidence presented me and the obvious workings of Him in my life and in others (the evidence). You make the transition by the obvious. If you see "X", then you have evidence "X" exists. Therefore, you CHOOSE to believe "X" exists.

A few would be: That the print and broadcast media is mostly liberal, that the earth orbits the sun, that the Ford Ranger is more reliable than the Chevy S10, that chili shouldn’t have beans in it, that my dad loves me, that leprechauns do not exist, that beliefs can not be consciously CHOSEN.

How did you decide that Ford Ranger was more reliable than the Chevy S10? I believe differently. I own a Ford Ranger.

According to the definitions below to me it is blatently obvious that you CHOOSE to believe that chili shouldn't have beans. (I also disagree here, but it could do without meat.) Because you prefer one over the other. You CHOOSE to believe that your dad loves you. You CHOOSE to believe leprechauns do not exist (as do I). Because you prefer one option over another. I just have a hard time understanding why you don't choose one thing over another or choose out of a number of alternatives or make decisions (see definition of choose).. This is why I don't understand your question. These are everyday things we do... maybe our definitions aren't the same...or maybe you are just trying to mess with me (currently I choose to believe that you are sincere, benefit of the doubt)...either way now we can be on the same page:

Belief The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another: My belief in you is as strong as ever.
Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something: His explanation of what happened defies belief.
Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.

Choose
To select from a number of possible alternatives; decide on and pick out.
To prefer above others: chooses the supermarket over the neighborhood grocery store.
To determine or decide: chose to fly rather than drive.

If you expect me to respond to your future posts I would appreciate it if you would leave out the sarcasm. I have had respect for you in my posts and I would appreciate the same. Honestly though, I don't know there is much else to say on the subject without running in circles.

Thanks. Mixee.

Have a good nite all!