Hard Questions

[dampes8n]

I am going to ask some very hard questions. Sometimes these questions have been met with indignation. I am being respectful, please offer me the same in kind.

One of the major assertions of Christianity is that the Bible is the word of God and is therefore perfect. If this perception on my part is outdated, please correct me.

One of my initial questions revolves around this concept, which I find interesting. It sets up a philosophical construct: The Bible is the word of God; God is perfect; so the Bible is Truth. If statements one or two are not correct, the third does not follow.

Now, I direct your attention to Leviticus 11 and in particular, Lev 11:19. Various translations read somewhat differently but one option can be found here: USCCB - NAB - Leviticus 11

All of the translations I have read all use the word "Bird" in Lev 11:13. This suggests then that Bats are Birds, which they are not.

It has been suggested that this is a quirk of language, which begs the question for me as to how many other such quirks are present. However, this is not actually the case. The suggestion is that the word for bird (tzipor in Hebrew) means something that flies in the air, and as such anything that does this fits this definition.

Unfortunately, the word grew to mean the grouping of animals commonly called birds, which is true to this day. In fact, proof of this is contained within the same passage. The Ostrich does not fly.

It seems now that we have a flaw, a small flaw for sure, but one of a collection of flaws that grow larger in magnitude. Some of which include things I have known Christians to attribute to the supernatural nature of God, so I will not bring them up here. However some others are:

Ezekiel 20:25 , here God says he created some rules that people shouldn't follow, because they are not good.

There are also places where the Bible contradicts itself directly.

Deuteronomy 6:5, Deuteronomy 6:13, and 1 John 4:18. Which say you should Love God, Fear God, and later says there is no Fear in Love.

Genesis 1:3-5 and 1:14-19, for example claim light and darkness are created on the first and fourth days. One also wonders what a day is without a day and night cycle.

Genesis 2:17, God says that eating from the Tree of Knowledge will make you die within a single day. And then in Genesis 5:5 it is made known that Adam, who eats said fruit, lives for 930 years. Long after eating the fruit.

Genesis 4:9 suggests God is not Omniscient

There are perhaps hundreds of these.


My question is: How can the Bible be Truth? What item, other than the Bible, exists that offers this same Truth if the Bible is suspect?

I certainly understand the perception that the universe is too complex and wonderful to be without a creator. However, what evidence is there to suggest the Christian view of God and the universe is True and other claims, such as those of non-Abrahamic religions like Asatru or Shinto are false representations of the Cosmos?

And again, if I have misrepresented the facts here somewhere, please disabuse me of my ignorance before answering the above questions. Perhaps they are made moot by something I misunderstood.

Also, as I was raised Jewish, my primary focus in the Bible is centered on the Old Testament. I have read 3 versions of the New Testament cover to cover, but I studied the Torah for several years. If there is some new translation I should be reading, please bring it to my attention.

If anyone can help me better understand the basis of the Christian faith through these questions, I thank you in advance. This is very important to me, and I am not here to try to kick sand in anyone's eyes. I'm here to be taught.

 

[Bible2]

dampes8n:
Lev 11:13. This suggests then that Bats are Birds

Because the ancient Hebrew word translated at "birds" in Leviticus 11:13 could be used in ancient times to refer to both eagles and bats (Leviticus 11:13,19), it must have referred to any animal with wings and two legs. We must not try to force our modern scientific definition of the English word "bird" back onto the ancient Hebrew word.

Ezekiel 20:25 , here God says he created some rules that people shouldn't follow, because they are not good.

Ezekiel 20:24-26 means that God punished the ancient Israelites for disobeying his good rules, by giving them over to horrible pagan customs such as burning their babies as sacrifices.

There are also places where the Bible contradicts itself directly.

Deuteronomy 6:5, Deuteronomy 6:13, and 1 John 4:18. Which say you should Love God, Fear God, and later says there is no Fear in Love.

Deuteronomy 6:5,13 is not a contradiction, when by fear we mean the kind of fear that keeps people from misbehaving so as to avoid punishment from God, whom they love. 1 John 4:18 means that if people truly love God, they will not misbehave (1 John 5:3), and so they will have no fear of an impending punishment from God.

Genesis 1:3-5 and 1:14-19, for example claim light and darkness are created on the first and fourth days.

Genesis 1:3-5 means that God created some temporary light source in space to light up one side of the earth, three days before he created the permanent light source of the sun (Genesis 1:14-19).

Genesis 2:17, God says that eating from the Tree of Knowledge will make you die within a single day.

Genesis 2:17 meant that eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would make Adam mortal that same day, from that day forward he would surely die, eventually.

Genesis 4:9 suggests God is not Omniscient

Genesis 4:9 doesn't mean that God is not omniscient; he can ask questions of people when he already knows the answer (John 6:5-14).

...what evidence is there to suggest the Christian view of God and the universe is True

There is no scientific evidence by which someone can be convinced to become a Christian; faith in Jesus Christ can come only as a miraculous gift from God (John 6:65) as one reads the Bible (Romans 10:17) without hardening one's heart against it (Hebrews 3:15).

 

[dampes8n]

Ezekiel 20:24-26 means that God punished the ancient Israelites for disobeying his good rules, by giving them over to horrible pagan customs such as burning their babies as sacrifices.

That is seriously the most horrific thing I think I've ever heard.

But, really, this still means God created rules for some people, presumably through prophesy, that are not good. The same sort of prophesy that was written in the Bible, how would the people getting it know the difference?

Deuteronomy 6:5,13 is not a contradiction, when by fear we mean the kind of fear that keeps people from misbehaving so as to avoid punishment from God, whom they love. 1 John 4:18 means that if people truly love God, they will not misbehave (1 John 5:3), and so they will have no fear of an impending punishment from God.

I don't do things for the people I love out of fear. I do it because I love them. You don't fear things that will punish you because you love them. You fear them because they will punish you. Punishment in and of itself is not an act of love. It CAN be, as in punishing a child for doing something that might hurt them. However, the kind of punishments God tends to inflict are a bit more permanent. See: Making a whole race of people sacrifice their children to you as punishment in your text above.

Genesis 1:3-5 means that God created some temporary light source in space to light up one side of the earth, three days before he created the permanent light source of the sun (Genesis 1:14-19).

Genesis 1:3 reads: "And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. "

The Ancient Hebrews did not understand the Sun to be the primary source of light, they considered them separate. (See passages about God making the sun set at noon.)

However, God would understand this, and he quite clearly here creates day here. Day requires sun. In reality it requires Earth too, which wasn't created yet either. He created evening and morning, that is a sunless sunrise and sunless sunset. Either he created the sun here, or he created something that no longer exists.

Genesis 2:17 meant that eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would make Adam mortal that same day, from that day forward he would surely die, eventually.

What about the Tree of Life/Immortality? Adam and Eve became mortal not from eating from the Tree of Knowledge, but by not being able to eat from the Tree of Life. Why else would God post angels to protect it?

Genesis 4:9 doesn't mean that God is not omniscient; he can ask questions of people when he already knows the answer (John 6:5-14).

This is ambiguous from context, I concede this point.

There is no scientific evidence by which someone can be convinced to become a Christian; faith in Jesus Christ can come only as a miraculous gift from God (John 6:65) as one reads the Bible (Romans 10:17) without hardening one's heart against it (Hebrews 3:15).

This is a catch-22. It says the only way to believe is to believe. If this is so, then it is not compelling. Why would an all-powerful God need to resort to mind games? It simply doesn't make sense.

However, I did not ask for scientific proof. This is not a scientific matter.

I have read the Bible, I'm working on my 4th different Translation; I'm open to the prospect, so my heart is not hardened to it. I am as open to the power of this religion as I am to any. I study them all. Does that preclude me?

I have talked with many who feel the presence of God on a personal level. Not just Christians. The general reaction from one against the other is that they are being tricked. Followers of Asatru say the Christian is tricked by Loki, and the Christian says they are tricked by Satan.

What difference is there between them? How does one know who is being tricked? How do you know your miracle isn't Loki tricking you?

It must come down to objective exploration of the foundation of the Religion itself. Perhaps the Bible is so old and re-written as to be nothing as it was intended, this does not preclude the existence of God. More-over it may account for the primitive nature of its passages. The older the chapter the grander and more over-the-top the claims. With only the Bible to say the Bible is True, how can one be sure of its veracity?

There are remarkable connections between the text of the Bible and what science indicates the universe really is like. There are also remarkable things about Hinduism, Shinto, Sikh, Asatru, Mezzo-American Traditions and others that bear a striking resemblance to what science suggests too.

Either the Ancients knew more then they let on, or they got their information from somewhere.

I don't know, you got me off on a "Wow, the world and all its people are AWESOME" rant. Forgive me. I blame it on it being 2AM.

 

[aiki]

Now, I direct your attention to Leviticus 11 and in particular, Lev 11:19. Various translations read somewhat differently but one option can be found here: USCCB - NAB - Leviticus 11

All of the translations I have read all use the word "Bird" in Lev 11:13. This suggests then that Bats are Birds, which they are not.

In many respects bats are similar to birds. They both fly, they have two legs, they have similar diets (fruit, insects, nuts, etc), and they commonly move about in groups. According to modern classification, bats are not birds, but such distinctions were not being made the many millenia ago when the dietary command concerning birds was given, nor was it necessary to the command to make such a distinction. Both in OT times and now, the reader does not suffer any confusion about the dietary command when discovering bats grouped with birds.

It seems now that we have a flaw, a small flaw for sure, but one of a collection of flaws that grow larger in magnitude.

If there is a "flaw" it is with your attempt to impose - unnecessarily - modern distinctions on a passage that doesn't require it.

Ezekiel 20:25 , here God says he created some rules that people shouldn't follow, because they are not good.

Ezekiel 20:23-26
23 Also I raised My hand in an oath to those in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the Gentiles and disperse them throughout the countries,
24 because they had not executed My judgments, but had despised My statutes, profaned My Sabbaths, and their eyes were fixed on their fathers' idols.
25 Therefore I also gave them up to statutes that were not good, and judgments by which they could not live;
26 and I pronounced them unclean because of their ritual gifts, in that they caused all their firstborn to pass through the fire, that I might make them desolate and that they might know that I am the Lord." '

Nowhere in this passage does God say that the statutes to which He gave up the Israelites were His own. Clearly, the "not good" statutes were those pagan laws and rituals which the Israelites were already practicing. The passage makes it plain that the Israelites had abandoned God's statutes in favor of pagan religious rites and it is to these pagan rites that God "gave over" the Israelites. Essentially, God was removing His hand of blessing, guidance, and protection from the Israelites so that they would suffer the unmitigated consequences of their choice to follow pagan idols.

There are also places where the Bible contradicts itself directly.

Deuteronomy 6:5, Deuteronomy 6:13, and 1 John 4:18. Which say you should Love God, Fear God, and later says there is no Fear in Love.

Deuteronomy 6:4-5
4 "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!
5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

Deuteronomy 6:13-15
13 You shall fear the Lord your God and serve Him, and shall take oaths in His name.
14 You shall not go after other gods, the gods of the peoples who are all around you
15 (for the Lord your God is a jealous God among you), lest the anger of the Lord your God be aroused against you and destroy you from the face of the earth.

1 John 4:15-19
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
19 We love Him because He first loved us.

Many things may be both loved and feared. Mountain climbers love to climb while at the same time fearing the threat of injury or death that climbing always entails. Some folk love poisonous snakes; they think they are beautiful and fascinating. These same folk, however, would be the first to warn you of the danger of careless handling of these creatures; they have a healthy fear of the lethal potential of the "pets" they love. In the same way, people both love and fear God. He is good, kind, merciful and loving toward those who live righteously, but He is also a terrifying Judge of the wicked. God has the wondrous power to give life and the frightening power to take it; He may create and He may also destroy. As a result, we are urged in Scripture both to love God and to fear Him.

In 1John the dynamic in the relationship between God and man has changed from what it was in the OT as a result of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. The first verse in the passage above identifies how:

Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

The Christian, then, is "accepted in the beloved," (Eph. 1:6) or clothed in the righteousness of Christ (Eph. 4:24; Phil. 3:9; Ro. 13:14; Ga. 3:27) and so no longer stands under God's terrible judgment but has "passed from death unto life" (Jn. 5:24). As a result, there is no need to fear God as the Condemner of the Wicked; for He has become a loving Heavenly Father to all who exercise faith in His Son, Jesus Christ, as Saviour and Lord. As this understanding matures, or becomes perfect, or complete, fear of God as Judge and Punisher dissolves into love for Him as "Abba, Father."

Genesis 1:3-5 and 1:14-19, for example claim light and darkness are created on the first and fourth days. One also wonders what a day is without a day and night cycle.

Actually, the passages indicate that God merely distinguished light from dark on the first day. On the fourth day, He made astral bodies, suns, stars and moons to emanate light.

Genesis 2:17, God says that eating from the Tree of Knowledge will make you die within a single day. And then in Genesis 5:5 it is made known that Adam, who eats said fruit, lives for 930 years. Long after eating the fruit.

What Bible2 said. I would add, though, that death came upon Adam and Eve because of their disobedience to God's command (their sin), not because of the type of fruit they ate. "For the wages of sin is death." (Ro. 6:23)

Genesis 4:9 suggests God is not Omniscient

Again, what Bible2 said.

My question is: How can the Bible be Truth? What item, other than the Bible, exists that offers this same Truth if the Bible is suspect?

You've asked this in light of the "flaws" you've listed above, which have been explained not to be flaws. Maybe you'd like to adjust the question? The "flaw" is that you appear not to know or understand the Bible very well, and/or that you have a prejudice against seeing the Bible for what it is - the Word of God.

I certainly understand the perception that the universe is too complex and wonderful to be without a creator. However, what evidence is there to suggest the Christian view of God and the universe is True and other claims, such as those of non-Abrahamic religions like Asatru or Shinto are false representations of the Cosmos?

Check out:

Answers in Genesis - Creation, Evolution, Christian Apologetics
The Institute for Creation Research
Welcome to Ravi Zacharias International Ministries
Reasonable Faith:
Stand to Reason: Stand to Reason: Equipping Christian Ambassadors with Knowledge, Wisdom, and Character.

Peace.

 

[dampes8n]

Thank you very much, I only wish to get to the bottom of one remaining issue.

"In 1John the dynamic in the relationship between God and man has changed from what it was in the OT as a result of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. The first verse in the passage above identifies how:

*Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.* [wash my mouth][wash my mouth]

The Christian, then, is "accepted in the beloved," (*Eph. 1:6*) or clothed in the righteousness of Christ (*Eph. 4:24; Phil. 3:9; Ro. 13:14; Ga. 3:27*) and so no longer stands under God's terrible judgment but has "passed from death unto life" (*Jn. 5:24*). As a result, there is no need to fear God as the Condemner of the Wicked; for He has become a loving Heavenly Father to all who exercise faith in His Son, Jesus Christ, as Saviour and Lord. As this understanding matures, or becomes perfect, or complete, fear of God as Judge and Punisher dissolves into love for Him as "Abba, Father.""

Is not this impossible? God is classicly described as unchanging. Hebrews 13:8 Certainly you don't mean to suggest God changed his mind? If not, what change was present to insight God to send Jesus in the first place? People hadn't gotten better, by many accounts the Romans were worse than Biblical societies God helped destroy utterly.

They seem like different Gods, to be honest. But all that remains as an option in scripture is that for the thousands of years between Genesis and the New Testament, God wanted and has no regrets about all the killing and sin, because if he did not, he could have sent his son earlier.

 

[Jpark]

Splendid! These questions look great. Let me see if I can answer them.

 

[Jpark]

I am going to ask some very hard questions. Sometimes these questions have been met with indignation. I am being respectful, please offer me the same in kind.

One of the major assertions of Christianity is that the Bible is the word of God and is therefore perfect. If this perception on my part is outdated, please correct me.

One of my initial questions revolves around this concept, which I find interesting. It sets up a philosophical construct: The Bible is the word of God; God is perfect; so the Bible is Truth. If statements one or two are not correct, the third does not follow.

I will not meet them with indignation. I will show you respect in turn.

Now, I direct your attention to Leviticus 11 and in particular, Lev 11:19. Various translations read somewhat differently but one option can be found here: USCCB - NAB - Leviticus 11

All of the translations I have read all use the word "Bird" in Lev 11:13. This suggests then that Bats are Birds, which they are not.

It has been suggested that this is a quirk of language, which begs the question for me as to how many other such quirks are present. However, this is not actually the case. The suggestion is that the word for bird (tzipor in Hebrew) means something that flies in the air, and as such anything that does this fits this definition.

Unfortunately, the word grew to mean the grouping of animals commonly called birds, which is true to this day. In fact, proof of this is contained within the same passage. The Ostrich does not fly.

There are only two possibilities.

Evidently, it is God who is saying this so that must mean that God was mistaken or bats are birds.

The other possibility is that some parts of the Torah are not from God and was fabricated by man. My father told me that the Jews changed the book of Moses and the OT, although I do not know if this is true.

It seems now that we have a flaw, a small flaw for sure, but one of a collection of flaws that grow larger in magnitude. Some of which include things I have known Christians to attribute to the supernatural nature of God, so I will not bring them up here. However some others are:

Ezekiel 20:25 , here God says he created some rules that people shouldn't follow, because they are not good.

There are also places where the Bible contradicts itself directly.

Deuteronomy 6:5, Deuteronomy 6:13, and 1 John 4:18. Which say you should Love God, Fear God, and later says there is no Fear in Love.

Genesis 1:3-5 and 1:14-19, for example claim light and darkness are created on the first and fourth days. One also wonders what a day is without a day and night cycle.

Genesis 2:17, God says that eating from the Tree of Knowledge will make you die within a single day. And then in Genesis 5:5 it is made known that Adam, who eats said fruit, lives for 930 years. Long after eating the fruit.

Genesis 4:9 suggests God is not Omniscient

There are perhaps hundreds of these.

Concerning Ezekiel 20:25, I admit I do not know.

Concerning Deuteronomy 6:5, Deuteronomy 6:13, and 1 John 4:18, now the fear of God is not fear, but reverence.

Concerning Genesis 1:3-5 and 1:14-19, my annotations tell me that in Genesis 1:3-5, light is the presence of illumination in general.

Concerning Genesis 2:17, this is all-inclusive (spiritual, moral, social, relational, and ultimately physical) death.

Concerning Genesis 4:9, this is God asking Adam as a father would ask a disobedient son. God is not asking out of ignorance.

If you have any further questions, consider acquiring the New Spirit-Filled Life Bible. This is a excellent Bible and I highly recommend it.

My question is: How can the Bible be Truth? What item, other than the Bible, exists that offers this same Truth if the Bible is suspect?

I certainly understand the perception that the universe is too complex and wonderful to be without a creator. However, what evidence is there to suggest the Christian view of God and the universe is True and other claims, such as those of non-Abrahamic religions like Asatru or Shinto are false representations of the Cosmos?

And again, if I have misrepresented the facts here somewhere, please disabuse me of my ignorance before answering the above questions. Perhaps they are made moot by something I misunderstood.

Also, as I was raised Jewish, my primary focus in the Bible is centered on the Old Testament. I have read 3 versions of the New Testament cover to cover, but I studied the Torah for several years. If there is some new translation I should be reading, please bring it to my attention.

If anyone can help me better understand the basis of the Christian faith through these questions, I thank you in advance. This is very important to me, and I am not here to try to kick sand in anyone's eyes. I'm here to be taught.

The Holy Spirit is why the Bible is truth. The Holy Spirit is evidence that God is there.

If you experienced the Holy Spirit, you would confess God.

1 Corinthians 14:23-25 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.

 

[Jpark]

Thank you very much, I only wish to get to the bottom of one remaining issue.

"In 1John the dynamic in the relationship between God and man has changed from what it was in the OT as a result of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. The first verse in the passage above identifies how:

*Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.* [wash my mouth][wash my mouth]

The Christian, then, is "accepted in the beloved," (*Eph. 1:6*) or clothed in the righteousness of Christ (*Eph. 4:24; Phil. 3:9; Ro. 13:14; Ga. 3:27*) and so no longer stands under God's terrible judgment but has "passed from death unto life" (*Jn. 5:24*). As a result, there is no need to fear God as the Condemner of the Wicked; for He has become a loving Heavenly Father to all who exercise faith in His Son, Jesus Christ, as Saviour and Lord. As this understanding matures, or becomes perfect, or complete, fear of God as Judge and Punisher dissolves into love for Him as "Abba, Father.""

Is not this impossible? God is classicly described as unchanging. Hebrews 13:8 Certainly you don't mean to suggest God changed his mind? If not, what change was present to insight God to send Jesus in the first place? People hadn't gotten better, by many accounts the Romans were worse than Biblical societies God helped destroy utterly.

They seem like different Gods, to be honest. But all that remains as an option in scripture is that for the thousands of years between Genesis and the New Testament, God wanted and has no regrets about all the killing and sin, because if he did not, he could have sent his son earlier.

God can change His mind. To say that He can't is to set a limit on Him.

If God is Omnipotent (Revelation 19:6), surely He can change His mind.

Note Malachi 3:6 says God does not change. It does not say that He cannot change.

Yes, they seem like different God but they are not really different Gods. I recommend watching Francesco (2002 version). Fast forward until you get to the part where St. Francis dictates the rules for his new found church. We see later in the movie, he recants and repents to God and says something like why did I allow my hands to write this?

 

[aiki]

Is not this impossible? God is classicly described as unchanging. Hebrews 13:8 Certainly you don't mean to suggest God changed his mind? If not, what change was present to insight God to send Jesus in the first place? People hadn't gotten better, by many accounts the Romans were worse than Biblical societies God helped destroy utterly.

God's nature is unchanging. Does God change His mind? Hmmm...I think the phrase "change His mind" when applied to God is a bit anthropomorphic. That is, we are ascribing to God the human behaviour where someone "thinks better" of their decision because they have realized a flaw of some sort in it. When we talk of this kind of thing about humans, we often mean the person made a mistake, but we cannot say the same sort of thing about God. If God makes mistakes, then He isn't God, right? Some have suggested (and I tentatively agree with them) that when God "repents" of something, it is the closest description we can make from a human frame of reference of what God does, but it is not an exact or perfect description of what He is actually doing. As One who knows the end from the beginning, and whose will is soveriegn, God does not realize an error or mistake in His choices or conduct.

What prompted God to send Jesus? Scripture reveals that even before the world was made, God's redemptive plan was prepared. Christ was "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" before "the foundation of the world." (Eph. 1:4; Heb. 4:3; 1Pe. 1:20) There was no particular incident which prompted God to send the Messiah, only the working out of His pre-ordained plan of salvation. All through the OT you see a pre-figuring of what God would do in the sacrificing of His Son for humanity's sin.

They seem like different Gods, to be honest. But all that remains as an option in scripture is that for the thousands of years between Genesis and the New Testament, God wanted and has no regrets about all the killing and sin, because if he did not, he could have sent his son earlier.

The God of the OT is the God of the NT; He has not changed. You can see God's love, mercy, and compassion expressed over and over again in the OT just as you can in the NT, but in the OT you also see God's hatred of sin and His terrible judgment of it. In respect to God's holy judgment and punishment of sin, the NT expresses some significant differences in how people may satisfy the demands of these aspects of God's rule over us. Certainly, God is still holy and will judge sin, but He has made a way for us to obtain a righteous standing before Him, to be forgiven for our sin once and for all, and to live free of the power of the sinful nature.

The Bible says that God "takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked" (Eze. 33:11) but He has no regrets about judging the sin of the pagan nations and of His own Chosen People as He did in the OT. Why didn't He send Christ earlier? I have no idea. He had His own schedule and plan He was/is working out and my (dis)agreement with His methods and timing are of no value or interest to Him whatsoever. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts," says the Creator. (Isa. 55:9)

Peace.

 

[Bible2]

dampes8n:
...this still means God created rules for some people, presumably through prophesy, that are not good.

Ezekiel 20:24-26 doesn't mean that God created rules for some people, presumably through prophecy, that were not good. Instead, Ezekiel 20:24-26 means that when the ancient Israelites disobeyed God's good rules, as a punishment he gave them over to already-existing pagan-created customs that were not good, such as the custom of burning babies as sacrifices.

I don't do things for the people I love out of fear. I do it because I love them.

Christians obey God out of both their love for him (1 John 5:3) and their fear of his ability to eternally punish them if they don't obey him (Romans 2:6-8).

You don't fear things that will punish you because you love them. You fear them because they will punish you.

It hasn't been said that a person fears things that will punish him because he loves them. Christians fear God not because they love him, but because of his ability to punish them if they don't obey him (Revelation 3:19).

Punishment in and of itself is not an act of love. It CAN be, as in punishing a child for doing something that might hurt them.

God's punishment of Christians, his children, is an act of love toward them (Hebrews 12:6-7), while his punishment of unelect people, the devil's children (Matthew 13:38-42), is an act of hatred toward them (Romans 9:13,22).

However, the kind of punishments God tends to inflict are a bit more permanent. See: Making a whole race of people sacrifice their children to you as punishment in your text above.

Ezekiel 20:24-26 doesn't refer to God making a whole race of people sacrifice their children to him as a punishment, but to God giving some of the disobedient ancient Israelites over to the pagan custom of sacrificing their children to the pagan god Molech (cf. Leviticus 18:21).

Regarding the permanence of God's punishments, while God's ultimate punishment of the unsaved will be permanent (Matthew 25:41,46), his punishments of the saved are not permanent (Hebrews 12:11).

Day requires sun. In reality it requires Earth too, which wasn't created yet either. He created evening and morning, that is a sunless sunrise and sunless sunset. Either he created the sun here, or he created something that no longer exists.

Genesis 1:1-2 shows that the earth had been created by the time of Genesis 1:3-5, which refers to God creating a light source in space which either no longer exists or which he later moved so far away from the earth that it no longer lights up half the earth as bright as day, as it did for three days before the creation of the sun (Genesis 1:16,19).

Adam and Eve became mortal not from eating from the Tree of Knowledge, but by not being able to eat from the Tree of Life. Why else would God post angels to protect it?

Adam and Eve did become mortal from eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17). God then posted Cherubims to keep Adam and Eve away from the tree of life (Genesis 3:24) so that Adam and Eve could not regain immortality by eating from the tree of life (Genesis 3:22).

Why would an all-powerful God need to resort to mind games? It simply doesn't make sense.

It isn't a mind game or nonsensical that the only way to believe in Jesus Christ is by God miraculously giving one the gift of faith in Jesus Christ (John 6:65) as one reads the Bible (Romans 10:17) without hardening one's heart against it (Hebrews 3:15).

I have read the Bible, I'm working on my 4th different Translation; I'm open to the prospect, so my heart is not hardened to it.

It is difficult for unsaved people to know for certain anything about their own heart, because the unsaved heart is so deceitful and desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9).

...what change was present to insight God to send Jesus in the first place?

From before the foundation of the world, God had planned to send Jesus to die for our sins (1 Peter 1:20).

They seem like different Gods

The God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31). Jesus died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy (Isaiah 53), and rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy (Psalms 16:10). He died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28) which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of the devil (Hebrews 2:14) which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament from the very beginning in the book of Genesis (Genesis 3:15).

 

[ebia]

I am going to ask some very hard questions. Sometimes these questions have been met with indignation. I am being respectful, please offer me the same in kind.

One of the major assertions of Christianity is that the Bible is the word of God and is therefore perfect. If this perception on my part is outdated, please correct me.

One of my initial questions revolves around this concept, which I find interesting. It sets up a philosophical construct: The Bible is the word of God; God is perfect; so the Bible is Truth. If statements one or two are not correct, the third does not follow.

Now, I direct your attention to Leviticus 11 and in particular, Lev 11:19. Various translations read somewhat differently but one option can be found here: USCCB - NAB - Leviticus 11

All of the translations I have read all use the word "Bird" in Lev 11:13. This suggests then that Bats are Birds, which they are not.

It has been suggested that this is a quirk of language, which begs the question for me as to how many other such quirks are present. However, this is not actually the case. The suggestion is that the word for bird (tzipor in Hebrew) means something that flies in the air, and as such anything that does this fits this definition.

Unfortunately, the word grew to mean the grouping of animals commonly called birds, which is true to this day. In fact, proof of this is contained within the same passage. The Ostrich does not fly.

You are trying to apply a post scientific thinking to a pre-scientific language. For whatever reason the language of the people who wrote Leviticus included bats, ostriches and pigeons within 'birds'. Why it did that is completely irrelevant - the bible uses language, it doesn't decide it.

It seems now that we have a flaw, a small flaw for sure, but one of a collection of flaws that grow larger in magnitude

.
Your 'flaw', in so far as there is one at all, is in the Hebrew language of the time, not in Leviticus. And even to call that a flaw is to demand that the people of that language should follow your ways of classification, which is (at best) absurdly anachronistic and at worst dreadfully arrogant.


Ezekiel 20:25 , here God says he created some rules that people shouldn't follow, because they are not good.

There are also places where the Bible contradicts itself directly.

Deuteronomy 6:5, Deuteronomy 6:13, and 1 John 4:18. Which say you should Love God, Fear God, and later says there is no Fear in Love.

Because love and fear are both broad concepts with a whole range of different meanings held in tension. And, in any case, "Fear of the Lord" and it cognates operates as a phrase denoting a concept you don't get from the individual words. "Fear of the Lord" operates as the name of the proper reaction when you realise you are the in the presence of God, and the wisdom that flows from that realisation. It does not reduce to what the individual words put together would imply.

Genesis 1:3-5 and 1:14-19, for example claim light and darkness are created on the first and fourth days. One also wonders what a day is without a day and night cycle.

Genesis 1 is liturgical poetry talking about a God bringing a very good creation out of nothing by bringing order from chaos. It has to be read at the order of poetry, not mathematical timeline. But to correct you slightly it says light and dark are created on day one, and sun, moon and stars on day 4. Each of the first three days creates a habitat by dividing (light and dark, sky and earth, seas and land) and the next three populate each of those in turn. The people who wrote Genesis, like many other ancient people, did not think of the sun as the source of all light - since the sky was bright all over in the daytime - even when you couldn't see the sun.

Genesis 2:17, God says that eating from the Tree of Knowledge will make you die within a single day. And then in Genesis 5:5 it is made known that Adam, who eats said fruit, lives for 930 years. Long after eating the fruit.

It doesn't actually say "you will die today" but "today you will surely die" ie. today your death becomes a certainty - you have, in effect, died by your actions, but because God is also merciful you will go on to live for a while. Those deaths will still be drummed in by the drumbeat of Genesis 5.

Genesis 4:9 suggests God is not Omniscient

Omniscience is a greek concept. Scripture is a lot more subtle than that, and a lot more willing to play with it for the sake of the meaning of the narrative.

My question is: How can the Bible be Truth?

If you are looking for a text that is "true" for all possible measures of the word "truth" all of the time, that is beyond the capabilities of human languge and communication - such a text is as impossible as a square circle.

The bible is reliable for doing what it is designed to do. But use it as a recipe for black-forest-gateaux and you will surely come unstuck.

I certainly understand the perception that the universe is too complex and wonderful to be without a creator. However, what evidence is there to suggest the Christian view of God and the universe is True and other claims, such as those of non-Abrahamic religions like Asatru or Shinto are false representations of the Cosmos?

You'll have to take your pick on the basis of some or all of:

• (when I've understood it) does it make sense to me?
• does it "work" as a way of life?
• does it offer the hope and whatever else I need?
• whatever other criteria you decide are appropriate.

 

[ebia]

Thank you very much, I only wish to get to the bottom of one remaining issue.

"In 1John the dynamic in the relationship between God and man has changed from what it was in the OT as a result of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. The first verse in the passage above identifies how:

*Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.* [wash my mouth][wash my mouth]

The Christian, then, is "accepted in the beloved," (*Eph. 1:6*) or clothed in the righteousness of Christ (*Eph. 4:24; Phil. 3:9; Ro. 13:14; Ga. 3:27*) and so no longer stands under God's terrible judgment but has "passed from death unto life" (*Jn. 5:24*). As a result, there is no need to fear God as the Condemner of the Wicked; for He has become a loving Heavenly Father to all who exercise faith in His Son, Jesus Christ, as Saviour and Lord. As this understanding matures, or becomes perfect, or complete, fear of God as Judge and Punisher dissolves into love for Him as "Abba, Father.""

Is not this impossible? God is classicly described as unchanging.
Hebrews 13:8 Certainly you don't mean to suggest God changed his mind?

Why not? Scripture does quite often!
We tend to overdo the "God is unchanging line" as though its an absolute, at the expense of seeing God in genuine interaction with his creation. In some senses God is unchanging, but by creating a creation that changes through time, and committing himself to genuine interaction with that creation through time, he has committed himself to change in some sense also. These are ideas that scripture is happy to hold in tension but Christians tend to pick one statement of one half of the story and absolutise it - mostly as a defense against things they don't want to consider.

But all that said, Jesus was the plan from the very beginning of God's story of putting the world to rights that began with Abraham.

If not, what change was present to insight God to send Jesus in the first place? People hadn't gotten better, by many accounts the Romans were worse than Biblical societies God helped destroy utterly.

That's precisely the point - the situation has to come to its climax in the worst of all possible moments, when the situation is darkest, for evil to do its worst to Jesus - and exhaust itself.

They seem like different Gods, to be honest. But all that remains as an option in scripture is that for the thousands of years between Genesis and the New Testament, God wanted and has no regrets about all the killing and sin, because if he did not, he could have sent his son earlier.

The time was not right before.

 

[drich0150]

One of the major assertions of Christianity is that the Bible is the word of God and is therefore perfect. If this perception on my part is outdated, please correct me.

One of my initial questions revolves around this concept, which I find interesting. It sets up a philosophical construct: The Bible is the word of God; God is perfect; so the Bible is Truth. If statements one or two are not correct, the third does not follow.

God is perfect, and God is truth, but the bible is not God. Except for the 10 commandments Man was responsible for scribing the words Inspired by the Spirit.

Now, I direct your attention to Leviticus 11 and in particular, Lev 11:19. Various translations read somewhat differently but one option can be found here: USCCB - NAB - Leviticus 11

All of the translations I have read all use the word "Bird" in Lev 11:13. This suggests then that Bats are Birds, which they are not.

It has been suggested that this is a quirk of language, which begs the question for me as to how many other such quirks are present. However, this is not actually the case. The suggestion is that the word for bird (tzipor in Hebrew) means something that flies in the air, and as such anything that does this fits this definition.

Unfortunately, the word grew to mean the grouping of animals commonly called birds, which is true to this day. In fact, proof of this is contained within the same passage. The Ostrich does not fly.

If you are at all familiar with scripture beyond your areas of scrutiny you would know that it was left to Adam to label all of God's creatures. So if Adam called a Bat a bird, then despite our modern classification for the animal in God's book all bats will be referred to as birds.

It seems now that we have a flaw, a small flaw for sure, but one of a collection of flaws that grow larger in magnitude.

There is only a flaw for one who presumes that His interpretation of the word around him is the Only correct way interpret what is.

If God created all of the animals, and then Gave the authority to a specific man to name them, then Why would He use any other name than the one given by Adam? do you think God would forsake 1000's of years and billions of peoples understanding just to be right in the eyes of those who lived in the last few hundred years?

Ezekiel 20:25 , here God says he created some rules that people shouldn't follow, because they are not good.

24 because they had not obeyed my laws but had rejected my decrees and desecrated my Sabbaths, and their eyes lusted after their fathers' idols. 25 I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by; 26 I let them become defiled through their gifts—the sacrifice of every firstborn [a] —that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the LORD.'

He said: He gave them over to Statutes they could not Live by, This implies that God let them be taken in by existing rules that governed other religions. One's that they lusted after that included human sacrifice.

No where in scripture does it say that He created the rules, and because they were not good.. This is a bit of a stretch.

There are also places where the Bible contradicts itself directly.

Contradiction in scripture are usually found by those who look and compare modern popular meanings and interpretations, to a sections of scripture that do not share this interpretation.

Deuteronomy 6:5,
5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
Deuteronomy 6:13,
13 Fear the LORD your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name.
1 John 4:18.
18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

Which say you should Love God, Fear God, and later says there is no Fear in Love.

Just because The OT Jews did not receive the complete Revelation of God's plan of Salvation, doesn't mean the bible is any less "True."

In the OT The Jew were given the command to Fear God because their righteousness depended on their works and ability to up hold God's Law. In the NT Righteousness is imparted on all who seek a relationship with God, Through of the sacrifice that Jesus made. For the OT believer it was important to fear God so that they would "live right."

In the NT we find it is impossible to "live right" under the Completion of God's Law. that means that true Righteousness must be obtained through the sacrifice, and Blood of Jesus. now because this Blood was freely given out of Love we can to learn to Love without fear.

God's plan of Salvation (In the Old and New Testaments) are two sides of the same coin.

Genesis 1:3-5 and 1:14-19, for example claim light and darkness are created on the first and fourth days. One also wonders what a day is without a day and night cycle.

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

In Gen 3 we are not told where the light comes from. Nor are we told what the nature of the darkness, or light was. Even in our modern vocabulary we use the term light and dark to describe other things besides the presents or absents of light waves. It is evident that since God didn't create the sun and moon till the fourth Day, that "He" was not speaking about the sun and moon on the First Day.

As far as the length of a Day "To the Lord 1 day is as a 1000 years."
I think that is just a poetic way of saying that we would have a hard time grasping what an actual day is to God. especially in the presents of eternity.

Genesis 2:17, God says that eating from the Tree of Knowledge will make you die within a single day. And then in Genesis 5:5 it is made known that Adam, who eats said fruit, lives for 930 years. Long after eating the fruit.

spiritually they did die. That is why they were expelled from the Garden that same day. Real death has little to do with a heart beat.

Genesis 4:9 suggests God is not Omniscient

9 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?"
"I don't know," he replied. "Am I my brother's keeper?"
There are perhaps hundreds of these.

I assuming that this is your best example out of the hundreds you have..

When one approaches a child with Chocolate all over his face that he was not supposed to have, and we ask: "Did you eat the chocolate that you were not supposed to eat?" Are we asking because we do not know what happened to the Chocolate, or are we asking to let the child to have a chance to come clean?

My question is: How can the Bible be Truth? What item, other than the Bible, exists that offers this same Truth if the Bible is suspect?

The Bible is a tool, and like any tool it will be used accordance of the person who wields it. If you want to find God He can be found in scripture, if you want to find religion that too will be found in scripture. If your looking for an item left by God to worship than the bible can be use in that way as well. But also know that the bible is not God, and it alone will not save you from yourself. The bible was constructed in a way as to point to God, and not to take his place. If your looking for the bible to be the perfect representation of God then it is not God that you seek. You (Or whom ever) has misunderstood the intent of scripture completely.