Hard Determinism, Soft Determinism, or “Pot Luck”

[elopez]

Do you believe God lives in the past, present, and future? Or, does He live outside of time? Do you believe all things are present before Him?

God does exist outside of time. He knows knows all aspects of time.

Predestination means to determine, decide, ordain, or appoint beforehand. With God, there is no 'beforehand'. To put God within the confines of time, is to constrain Him.

Yes, that is what predestination means. There is no "before" for God, yet there is a "without the universe" for God. Hence God is without time.

When does God determine how He deals with man? Is it in eternity past, or is it during man's lifetime?

The question itself implies temporality, specifically in regards to "when", as such suggests a point of time when God does determine. And you even point to such a time exactly as "during man's lifetime". Yet, this is constraining God to time. For it could be asked, why is God required to determine things coinciding with time itself? Surely if God is timeless, as you already seem to have said, He would determine things without the universe.

We are given insight to this from His word of truth.

Indeed we are. Take these Scriptures for instance:

Ephesians 1:4; Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:18-20.

 

[Job8]

You affirm that, "1. Certain key events have been pre-determined, the most prominent one being the perfect sacrifice of the Lamb of God (1 Pet 1:18-20)."

You do believe then that the sinful acts of those men who killed Him were predestined to happen?

Could you expand on that a little for us?

Are these sins just the exception to the rule? Or are other sins predestined as well?

That would be a "No". Now we come to the difference between pre-determination and foreknowledge, which are NOT identical. The sufferings and sacrifice of Christ were FOREORDAINED (pre-determined) (Acts 2:23). The sinful and evil acts of men were FOREKNOWN, and brought into the total scheme of things. Thus Peter indicted the Jews for the death of Christ, as did Stephen. They called it MURDER (Acts 3:14,15; 7:52).

Since God can have nothing whatsoever to do with sins, sinful choices are sinful choices based upon the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life (Jas 1:13-15): Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

So the answer should be obvious. God foreknows all sins and all atrocities. He does NOT pre-determine those things which are contrary to His character. Men and angels choose to sin or do righteousness.

 

[elopez]

@EmSw
Point being, God did not determine the crucifixion at the actual point of time of the crucifixion. Rather, without the event having happened and without the universe. Scripture is evident here...

 

[adhidarmawijaya]

I apologize if there are many wrongs in writing, cause English is not my mother language.
God is the alpha and omega means every things should come from His order and His wisdom.
So before the foundation of the world He should have a plan first before every things could be come to pass .

Isa43:7 They are my own people, and I created them to bring me glory."
He planned certain names that He wanted to create (His people), these names He wrote in the book of life.
His people would only glorify Him ,if they were resurrected from dead to be alive .
So there should be a premise " Salvation is only by His Grace " this premise is clarified as:
Eph1:4 Even before the world was made, God had already chosen us to be his through our union with Christ, so that we would be holy and without fault before him. Because of his love
Rom8:20 For creation was condemned to lose its purpose, not of its own will, but because God willed it to be so. Yet there was the hope
Gen2:3 He blessed the seventh day and set it apart as a special day, because by that day he had completed his creation and stopped working.
The seventh day or Sabbath day refer : salvation shall come from Him, no one can reach by his/her own effort , every one who try to earn by his/her effort is said as : working on Sabbath day (salvation by work).

Exod31:13 to tell the people of Israel, "Keep the Sabbath, my day of rest, because it is a sign between you and me for all time to come, to show that I, the LORD, have made you my own people.
31:14 You must keep the day of rest, because it is sacred. Whoever does not keep it, but works on that day, is to be put to death.
31:15 You have six days in which to do your work, but the seventh day is a solemn day of rest dedicated to me. Whoever does any work on that day is to be put to death.

From the clues about salvation above, there is a question:
What is Eden story reffer to ?( there is satan in Eden as the cheater, He created only A and E at the beginning not all the names He planned to create , and finally they should be driven out from Eden etc).
With an indirect answer: God looked for a format for His people that He wanted to create them soon by placing name by name in the womb of a woman to be born (names listed in the book of life).
Now all His people who are born from the womb of a woman shall be a spiritually dead being, so ------> they shall be bestowed by His Grace in order to be alive ( only them who are spiritually alive that could Glorify Him/after they understood well :how and what the God's Grace is ).

How can they understand : how and what the God's Grace is
Salvation by Grace shall be taught to His people ----> God should give His words completely ( Gen until Rev ).
In salvation is only by Grace there should be a place for His people to be born in the earth ---> a chosen nation/ chosen people is necessity so there is a event where God should confound their language (Gen11:7) in order they could not communicate each others -----> many nations could be built , then finally God chose Jacob's offspring as the only place He wanted to create His people .
This definitively people only for they know that in salvation by Grace is a necessity, but for long time it would create great human disaster , cause the chosen would act so arrogance to the other people, so God gave the new testament (Yer 31:29-32 ).

God's Grace:
After men were driven out from Eden, no one admitted that they were spiritually dead being (as corpses ) ( although scriptures told clearly : Gen2:17), This was showed when they were given the Torah laws, all of them (chosen people) persistently enthusiastically tried fulfilling those laws , They were driven out from Eden merely to prevent them for not eating the fruit of the tree of life intentionally this meant they surely ate that fruit , if this simplest order they could not fulfill, How could they feel they still could fulfill those hundreds of laws ? funny ?.
Although God already gave them hundreds of years for verification of their spiritually dead (began from the Moses Torah laws until the cross ) no one knew about this.
So the Messiah should come for opening their eyes by force 2.000 years ago.
This is the reason : Why Jesus came to us 2.000 years ago, not in Abraham era , or Moses era .

 

[Marvin Knox]

That would be a "No". Now we come to the difference between pre-determination and foreknowledge, which are NOT identical. The sufferings and sacrifice of Christ were FOREORDAINED (pre-determined) (Acts 2:23). The sinful and evil acts of men were FOREKNOWN, and brought into the total scheme of things. Thus Peter indicted the Jews for the death of Christ, as did Stephen. They called it MURDER (Acts 3:14,15; 7:52).

Since God can have nothing whatsoever to do with sins, sinful choices are sinful choices based upon the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life (Jas 1:13-15): Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

So the answer should be obvious. God foreknows all sins and all atrocities. He does NOT pre-determine those things which are contrary to His character. Men and angels choose to sin or do righteousness.

You are purposefully substituting pre-determined for pre-destined.

It seems that the reason you are doing that is to try to show the word destined as being exactly the same as the word determined which it is not.

I have said that God's ordaining (ordering) of sins does not make Him the author of sin. As both the definition of sin and the scripture that you provided show - sin can only come from the creature.

Likewise the fact that a sin is predestined to happen is not the same as saying that God is it's author. You are implying that it would be. I disagree.

The killing of Jesus was a sin. God ordained it to happen exactly as it did. It fit perfectly into His plan, which is why He put Jesus into their hands in the first place. But the murderers still were not free from guilt. That is why the Lord prayed that their sin not be held against them.

God ordained that the sinful act of crucifying the Lord take place as the scriptures clearly say. It was also predestined to happen from the foundation of the world. The Lord brought it to past in such a way that the sin only proceeded from the creature and not from Him.

This the way He is displaying the knowledge of good and evil in every instance where it is displayed in this age. Our sinfulness is displayed in contrast to His righteousness.

I have no trouble understanding where sin comes from - the scripture you provided for us clearly shows where it comes from.

Again I ask the question as to how this all works together if the ones who sinned by killing Jesus had not been destined to do it. What if, as is taught, they had free choice not to do so and they were not predestined to make the choice they made?

 

[Marvin Knox]

I apologize if there are many wrongs in writing, cause English is not my mother language.
God is the alpha and omega means every things should come from His order and His wisdom.
So before the foundation of the world He should have a plan first before every things could be come to pass .

Isa43:7 They are my own people, and I created them to bring me glory."
He planned certain names that He wanted to create (His people), these names He wrote in the book of life.
His people would only glorify Him ,if they were resurrected from dead to be alive .
So there should be a premise " Salvation is only by His Grace " this premise is clarified as:
Eph1:4 Even before the world was made, God had already chosen us to be his through our union with Christ, so that we would be holy and without fault before him. Because of his love
Rom8:20 For creation was condemned to lose its purpose, not of its own will, but because God willed it to be so. Yet there was the hope
Gen2:3 He blessed the seventh day and set it apart as a special day, because by that day he had completed his creation and stopped working.
The seventh day or Sabbath day refer : salvation shall come from Him, no one can reach by his/her own effort , every one who try to earn by his/her effort is said as : working on Sabbath day (salvation by work).

Exod31:13 to tell the people of Israel, "Keep the Sabbath, my day of rest, because it is a sign between you and me for all time to come, to show that I, the LORD, have made you my own people.
31:14 You must keep the day of rest, because it is sacred. Whoever does not keep it, but works on that day, is to be put to death.
31:15 You have six days in which to do your work, but the seventh day is a solemn day of rest dedicated to me. Whoever does any work on that day is to be put to death.

From the clues about salvation above, there is a question:
What is Eden story reffer to ?( there is satan in Eden as the cheater, He created only A and E at the beginning not all the names He planned to create , and finally they should be driven out from Eden etc).
With an indirect answer: God looked for a format for His people that He wanted to create them soon by placing name by name in the womb of a woman to be born (names listed in the book of life).
Now all His people who are born from the womb of a woman shall be a spiritually dead being, so ------> they shall be bestowed by His Grace in order to be alive ( only them who are spiritually alive that could Glorify Him/after they understood well :how and what the God's Grace is ).

How can they understand : how and what the God's Grace is
Salvation by Grace shall be taught to His people ----> God should give His words completely ( Gen until Rev ).
In salvation is only by Grace there should be a place for His people to be born in the earth ---> a chosen nation/ chosen people is necessity so there is a event where God should confound their language (Gen11:7) in order they could not communicate each others -----> many nations could be built , then finally God chose Jacob's offspring as the only place He wanted to create His people .
This definitively people only for they know that in salvation by Grace is a necessity, but for long time it would create great human disaster , cause the chosen would act so arrogance to the other people, so God gave the new testament (Yer 31:29-32 ).

God's Grace:
After men were driven out from Eden, no one admitted that they were spiritually dead being (as corpses ) ( although scriptures told clearly : Gen2:17), This was showed when they were given the Torah laws, all of them (chosen people) persistently enthusiastically tried fulfilling those laws , They were driven out from Eden merely to prevent them for not eating the fruit of the tree of life intentionally this meant they surely ate that fruit , if this simplest order they could not fulfill, How could they feel they still could fulfill those hundreds of laws ? funny ?.
Although God already gave them hundreds of years for verification of their spiritually dead (began from the Moses Torah laws until the cross ) no one knew about this.
So the Messiah should come for opening their eyes by force 2.000 years ago.
This is the reason : Why Jesus came to us 2.000 years ago, not in Abraham era , or Moses era .

The basic message came through loud and clear in spite of the language barrier.

With the exception of your statement toward the end that they ate of the tree of life (as opposed to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) I understand and generally agree.

 

[bling]

Certainly not me!

They were predestined to happen exactly as they happen from the split second God put the ball in play.

Since belief in God’s omniscience absolutely requires that you also believe that everything that happens is predestined to happen according to that omniscience -- the question is, “Who or what predestines it to happen”

Since God’s the only one around except those He creates and sustains for His own pleasure – I believe it is God who predestines all things that happen in His creation.

Belief in God’s omniscience does not require you to belief everything is “predestined” by God.

You say: “ Since God’s the only one around…”, but that places God under some kind of time restraint. Since God is outside of time for God everyone that was made or will be made is “around” (available for God to know what they of their own free will did while living).

 

[Job8]

You are purposefully substituting pre-determined for pre-destined.

Since you have used the terms "Hard Determinism" and "Soft Determinism" you should not complain that pre-determined in being used. We are dealing with Determinism.

The rest of your response is PURE CONJECTURE since you have no Scripture to support those assertions. On the other hand, I provided Scriptures to prove my points. The crucifixion of Christ was foreordained. The perpetrators of the crime were foreknown. How much simpler can it get?

 

[nobdysfool]

Would someone care to explain how an act, like the crucifixion, can be predestined, as Scripture clearly says, yet the events leading up to it, and the events following it are not predestined? Logically, to predestine an event or action to take place at a specific time and place, what causes and leads up to it must also be predestined. if not, then we have an predestined, specific, sure-to-occur event arising out of uncertain, unpredictable, and unplanned precursors. Certainty cannot arise from uncertainty. The universe does not work that way.

 

[nobdysfool]

Belief in God’s omniscience does not require you to belief everything is “predestined” by God.

You say: “ Since God’s the only one around…”, but that places God under some kind of time restraint.

How so? Was there ever a moment (for lack of a better term) in God's existence when there was only Him?

Since God is outside of time for God everyone that was made or will be made is “around” (available for God to know what they of their own free will did while living).

You claim God is outside of time (meaning that time has no meaning or effect on Him), and then use time-based words to make your point. I think you just blew a hole in your point....

And how do you know how all of this looks to God?

 

[Aijalon]

I guess my question is...does it take 'predestination' to make His omniscience come to pass? Is His omniscience lacking without 'predestination'? Will things He absolutely, eternally knew would occur, not occur unless He predestines them?

But, doesn't omniscience already know how the enemy would work? When did God NOT know what the enemy would do? If so, how would 'predestination' change His omniscience?

Well, in the sense that most people think of God's omniscience, you have a point, though, I don't think of it like that. That notion is predicated on the idea that the future is a "thing" that ALREADY has a certain definintion or outcome for all things. They further think the future can be peered at through God's powerful Omniscient lens (so to speak). Yet, though God does speak about the future that way, he doesn't say he "looks" at it. Nor does God say he is "outside" time, looking in.

To look toward a future, without having predestined it, would mean God layed out the time line in manner that contained no thought process on his part, if he thought about the future as he created the universe, how could that not be a causation of the future? The causation problem is a troubling one when we think of creation and a future timescape. (some just reason out of it by saying God controls all things in the future through his predestination, but he's not the cause)

Having created the future, God surely must have predestined it. If he did not predestine it, how does the future have a single known outcome?

If it does not have a single known-only-God outcome, how then can God be truly Omniscient, if the future has options?

I've never heard of the 'bomb theory' before. So, it is God's predestined plan to 'disarm' His predestined plan for man.

Depends on whether you mean God disarms his own predestined events, or that God providentially (strategically) plotted a general course to counteract the forces he evil he willingly unleashed (allowed into) on his creation.

Hey, if that's what you desire to believe, I won't argue with it.

Well, God did put a clock on things, called signs and seasons. And he did put a bomb in play, called his fire of judgement. It's his universe, it's his bomb. We're kind of cornered, don't ya think?

It's sort of like God said... hey, there's this self destruct system, you want the code? Some people don't think the bomb came from God, so they would never put a code into a device that they think is neat, to try disarming it Some don't agree there is a bomb, they just think it's a lunchbox, and go about spiting God as though he wasn't there.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Since you have used the terms "Hard Determinism" and "Soft Determinism" you should not complain that pre-determined in being used. We are dealing with Determinism.

That's an excellent point. We are dealing with determination as the OP said. You were right to use the word determination.

The rest of your response is PURE CONJECTURE since you have no Scripture to support those assertions. On the other hand, I provided Scriptures to prove my points. The crucifixion of Christ was foreordained. The perpetrators of the crime were foreknown. How much simpler can it get?

You are right again. It's a very simple thing to say - the way you just said it.

But when one says that the crucifixion was foreordained without allowing for the fore ordination of the sins involved therein - things get murky real fast. I'm willing (even imploring anyone at all) to hear someone clear up that murkiness for me.

The problem comes when one tries to work what has been foreordained in with fee will existing without the choice of that will being foreordained as well.

I don't hold the position that says that everything is "scripted by God" (including sins). That is hard-determination as some hold. I understand it. It just seems to make God inescapably the author of sin.

I'm willing to listen to anyone who thinks otherwise. That's the challenge of the OP. How can these things be - knowing what we know of God's righteousness. Why I am asked to defend a position I do not hold and am seeking answers for is beyond me.

I hold the 2nd view. That view says that all things are foreordained (or predestined) to happen - including sin. And yet there is total free will for men (as free as the will of a fallen man can be). Predestination and free will are compatible in this view.

I've often been challenged to defend this position vis-a-vis God not being the author of sin. I'm not sure why that happens so often since I have made it very clear that I do not hold to hard determinism.

Apparently you hold position 3 (or perhaps we should make it 4 if you want since you do believe that at least some things were foreordained - just not all things).

I'm asking for someone to explain how the positions other than position 2 work - in particular with regards to the biggest sin of all - the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

Particularly the focus should be on the view that says that the sins used to carry out the crucifixion were not foreordained. That position says that it was entirely possible that the choice of the people involved might well have been to leave Jesus alone or even to believe on Him.

I've gotten several attacks of my position so far (although they were really attacks of position 1 which I do not hold).

What I have yet to hear is an actual defense of the positions other than mine ---- particularly in relationship to the crucifixion, so that we all remain on the same page.

This is the way these thing usually go. It's easier to attack one position than it is to defend your position.

I'm hoping with this thread to goad those who think different than I do to defend rather than attack.

So far - no luck.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Belief in God’s omniscience does not require you to belief everything is “predestined” by God.

Perhaps not.

But it does require that you believe that everything that happens in God's creation is predestined by someone or something. If not God then who?

God knew what could happen and would happen before there was anything but Him.

God acted to make what could happen happen. In so doing He made sure that everything He knew would happen would happen.

Before you talk about God being outside of time or anything like that - I agree with you there.

He exists everywhere - inside as well as outside of time.

One need only consider His statements concerning the future that He gave through the prophets in time to see that He exists in time as well as out. He is, as they say, transcendent and imminent as well.

If He knew in time what would happen for sure in time - there was no chance that it would not happen. Therefore it was, at the time it was foretold by the prophets, predestined to happen.

But that's my position. I've defended it off and on in this forum for some time.

Enough about me!

My challenge to you and anyone else who holds that the sins of the crucifixion were not predestined or foreordained - to tell me how these things work. In particular let's talk about the crucifixion since we have more information concerning that group of sins than any other. It will also keep us on the same page.

Please - as the OP challenged - do tell. I'm all ears.

 

[Aijalon]

Supposing that God had things in mind before he created time, what were those things? And do those things in his mind count as equivalent to the predestined events within time?

Troubling questions that follow this supposition about time and creation.

Assume that Time is a "timeline", and assume that material Creation itself is utterly unable to be deviated from that timeline of events.

Now then, if the timeline of events cannot be changed, does this mean that God's mind preplanned each event? How else could he have foreknowledge of the timeline, if not having had in mind each event? And how far forward in the timeline did God put in his mind, pre creation?

Imagine it as if God designed a tapestry, and after painting it, he unfurled it as far into the future as possible. What God contemplated this plan for the future (painted it) did he delete and paint over anything. Did he ever change his mind about anything?

How could god have a personal relationship with a being that he drafted in his painting, and foreknew each thing they thought and did before he created them?

The answer here is either: A) He could not be a person God! B)the thoughts in all men's minds are pre planned by God.

Neither answer is adequate. Only if God changes his mind or allows human free choice (I did not say free will) is he able to be a personal God, who can relate to you, and have separate thoughts than you. You could not be a living being if your thoughts and deeds had no effect on creation or the timeline.

The answer I keep coming up with is that there is no timeline.

God has a painting, he's got the painting done... oh, about a million years into the future, but the timeline running before him, and us..... is not set and dried.

Time only goes as far as it is this moment.

There is no timeline my friends, it's a philosophical trap.

(If the timeline were real and God can go in or out of it, then he could change the past, and I think we all realize what changing the past does to God's omniscience)

 

[bling]

Would someone care to explain how an act, like the crucifixion, can be predestined, as Scripture clearly says, yet the events leading up to it, and the events following it are not predestined? Logically, to predestine an event or action to take place at a specific time and place, what causes and leads up to it must also be predestined. if not, then we have an predestined, specific, sure-to-occur event arising out of uncertain, unpredictable, and unplanned precursors. Certainty cannot arise from uncertainty. The universe does not work that way.

Just as with your knowledge today of human nature from what you know happened in the past (ex. How in the past the prophets of God were severely mistreated by the Jews and murdered when the Jewish leadership could). You could predict before Christ came to earth He would be treated and murdered the same way. God could figure all that out generally before creating the first person, since He has much greater knowledge of human nature than you. So Christ’s crucifixion was predestined.

The exact timing and method does require a lot of actions on God’s part (really to keep them from killing Christ too soon). God is not foreordaining the free will choices of those that murdered Christ, since that was their personal desire. God keeps them from doing it earlier and may set it up to allow them to do what they are wanting to do the way God set it up for them to do.

All the rest could be God just knowing the future free will choices of people and saying and having recorded what is going to happen in human time frame, but has already happened as far as God is concerned.

 

[bling]

How so? Was there ever a moment (for lack of a better term) in God's existence when there was only Him?

Jesus and the Spirit seem to be eternal beings, also.

God might have is own sequence of events (time), but when it comes to man’s time frame, God does not seem limited by human time.

When you try to put God into time you run into lots of unexplainable issues for example: If you say there is an infinite amount of time before God created the earth than the earth was not created since an infinite amount of time has to pass before the earth is created and that has not happened yet?

You claim God is outside of time (meaning that time has no meaning or effect on Him), and then use time-based words to make your point. I think you just blew a hole in your point....

And how do you know how all of this looks to God?

I use time base words to describe human time, but how am I using it to describe God in time?

How do you describe God being outside of time and not limited by man’s time?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Would someone care to explain how an act, like the crucifixion, can be predestined, as Scripture clearly says, yet the events leading up to it, and the events following it are not predestined? Logically, to predestine an event or action to take place at a specific time and place, what causes and leads up to it must also be predestined. if not, then we have a predestined, specific, sure-to-occur event arising out of uncertain, unpredictable, and unplanned precursors. Certainty cannot arise from uncertainty. The universe does not work that way.

These things are so obviously true that one has to wonder why people would say otherwise. I believe that, here in the soteriology section of the forum, the answer often lies in the opposition of many to anything that might eventually lend any credence at all to an idea expressed in dreaded "CALVINISM".

Once a person grants that - if the crucifixion was predestined, the events associated with it were also - the house of cards of those who oppose the predestination of salvation for God's elect begins to crumble around them. I think they know it and are scared to death of the prospect.

As a result they will even deny something as obvious as what we have been talking about to avoid what they know is coming at them sooner or later.

I'm thinking of Ephesians 1:3-6.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved."

The opponents of predestination for salvation will tell you that this bold passage only says that we were predestined to be holy, blameless and be adopted as sons. They will deny that the passage has anything to do with predestination for salvation.

How many times have we heard that refrain here in the soteriology section?

Admission of the truth of the principle that you laid out in your post above must, of necessity, apply to this passage as well.

That's a scary thing for anti Calvinists.

I could be wrong. But I believe that, whether it is conscious or not, that is what is going on here - at least in many cases. I couldn't say that that is the case for all here. But, in the case of several I see here, I believe it is.

To deny the truth of scripture in one area - just to avoid where it may lead in another - is one heck of a way for a person to run their systematic theology.

 

[nobdysfool]

These things are so obviously true that one has to wonder why people would say otherwise. I believe that, here in the soteriology section of the forum, the answer often lies in the opposition of many to anything that might eventually lend any credence at all to an idea expressed in dreaded "CALVINISM".

I know. They act like they're afraid they'll get "spiritual cooties" if they agree with anything that could in any way be a confirmation of even the smallest, tiniest part of Calvinism.

Once a person grants that - if the crucifixion was predestined, the event associated with it were also - the house of cards of those who oppose the predestination of salvation for God's elect begins to crumble around them. I think they know it and are scared to death of the prospect.

As a result they will even deny something as obvious as what we have been talking about to avoid what they know is coming at them sooner or later.

I'm thinking of Ephesians 1:3-6.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved."

The opponents of predestination for salvation will tell you that this bold passage only says that we were predestined to be holy, blameless and be adopted as sons. They will deny that the passage has anything to do with predestination for salvation.

How many times have we heard that refrain here in the soteriology section?

It amazes me how anyone can think that all of the benefits of being a Christian are predestined, but their Salvation itself, which is the prerequisite for all of those other benefits, is NOT predestined. It turns salvation into a game show prize, or they must believe that God just deals with random events and tries to get them into some sort of coherent order, AFTER the fact.

Admission of the truth of the principle that you laid out in your post above must, of necessity, apply to this passage as well.

That's a scary thing for anti Calvinists.

I could be wrong. But I believe that, whether it is conscious or not, that is what is going on here - at least in many cases. I couldn't say that that is the case for all here. But, in the case of several I see here, I believe it is.

To deny the truth of scripture in one area - just to avoid where it may lead in another - is one heck of a way for a person to run their systematic theology.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, as I have posted similar things before, and every time those posts have been met with silence, and ignored. No one wants to touch those points, because those points cause their theology to crumble before their eyes, when it comes to predestination.

I wonder if anyone else will have the courage to address it?

 

[Job8]

But when one says that the crucifixion was foreordained without allowing for the fore ordination of the sins involved therein - things get murky real fast. I'm willing (even imploring anyone at all) to hear someone clear up that murkiness for me.

Things get murky for people who walk away from the light. You want Bible Truth to conform to your theology, rather than develop your theology from Scripture. We are clearly told in Scripture that the sacrifice of Christ was foreordained (1 Pet 1:20), and by "the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23). We are NEVER told in Scripture that the evil that men do is foreordained. But you are not content with that.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Things get murky for people who walk away from the light. You want Bible Truth to conform to your theology, rather than develop your theology from Scripture. We are clearly told in Scripture that the sacrifice of Christ was foreordained (1 Pet 1:20), and by "the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23). We are NEVER told in Scripture that the evil that men do is foreordained. But you are not content with that.

No I'm not content with that.

The reason is that the foreordained crucifixion of Christ by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God was the evil of men. That's a pretty basic truth to argue against.

Once the principle that something being predestined by God includes the predestination of the events that make up that thing is established - we can take that clear principle and apply it to other instances.

The Ephesians passage is a prime example of how that can be done and done properly.

If we were predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son - the events comprising that conformation also were predestined ---- for instance the initial stages of the salvation process and following.

While there will likely remain several areas of disagreement between Calvinists and non Calvinists here in the forum - there would be at least this common ground to stand on. That would make for a more civil discussion IMO.

This thread and some others I have done are for that reason. They are not to argue philosophy for it's own sake. They are to provide common ground so that Christians need not feel the need to be so deeply entrenched and strident.

The fact that people will dig in and not concede the point about the ordained crucifixion's inclusion of the acts involved in it proves the point that some people will do just about anything to stay away from giving an inch on doctrine.

I don't walk away from the light. I run unabashedly into the light. Would that others would do the same thing with me.