Handling belligerence

[shernren]

There must come a point when the sheer futility of trying to edify or discourse reasonably must outweigh the need to prove falsehoods wrong.

Has this point been reached? Will I be humble enough to disengage him when it is?



Lord, grant me the courage to change the things I can change, the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, and the wisdom to know the difference.

 

[Melethiel]

It doesn't help when people completely ignore other's posts, and then accuse them of believing what they just unilaterally denied.

 

[Servant222]

There must come a point when the sheer futility of trying to edify or discourse reasonably must outweigh the need to prove falsehoods wrong.

Has this point been reached? Will I be humble enough to disengage him when it is?



Lord, grant me the courage to change the things I can change, the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, and the wisdom to know the difference.

But as a Christian, the overriding consideration must always be to be patient and kind, no matter how much you are provoked.

But having said that, I think proving falsehoods wrong is a fundamentally important duty of all Christians. To do otherwise puts the credibility of our faith at risk, and if this causes even one person to turn away from faith, it is not good.

 

[Willtor]

But as a Christian, the overriding consideration must always be to be patient and kind, no matter how much you are provoked.

But having said that, I think proving falsehoods wrong is a fundamentally important duty of all Christians. To do otherwise puts the credibility of our faith at risk, and if this causes even one person to turn away from faith, it is not good.

I agree, but I'd draw a different conclusion. Especially in the context of an online message board, people can see what has been posted. There's no need to repeat yourself. If someone doesn't want to hear what you're saying, they won't. This applies in a more limited sense to any discussion. Make sure you understand what the other person is saying and consider it, thoughtfully. Then respond. But if the person doesn't want to understand what you are saying, it probably does more harm than good to keep repeating it. It quickly turns into beating them over the head, which is always counterproductive.

 

[Servant222]

I agree. The fine art of forum communication is still in its infancy, and much remains to be learned, especially by the newbies that are always becoming involved, and who tend to regurgitate a whole bunch of stuff that has already been covered umpteen times.

Newbies should ideally be encouraged to just read and watch for a few months, in order to learn how to use this medium effectively and efficiently, and how to remain polite and avoid provocations.

I honestly think this is an item for prayer, though, because a place like Christian Forums is ultimately a very rich site, where one can learn a lot, and deepen and strengthen one's faith. Those who think otherwise should wait a few years until forum communication has matured a bit more and taken on a greater legitimacy; right now, most Pastors in my experience are loathe to admit that they participate in forum discussions, even though there are so many ideas to pick up here and refine.

Forums have very great potential for furthering the cause of democracy and free speech, and therefore neutralizing tyranny and oppression. When this happens, and people are free to examine what they believe in, they have the best chance of discovering Christianity, and of coming to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

 

[Mallon]

Personally, it's not the newbies that frustrate me. It's the vets who have been corrected on particular issues time and time again, but who refuse to admit their mistakes. Often they will just ignore points of refutation and continue repeating the same PRATTs over and over, presumably with the hope that they will hook some lurkers. Goodness, it has become increasingly obvious lately that most of the vets don't even understand the basics of the theory they so vehemently dispute!
I feel your frustration, shernren, and I'll have to say the same prayer along with you. They are our siblings in Christ, after all.

 

[shernren]

Enough is enough.

 

[Mallon]

Good on you shernren. Maybe it's time to leave that particular poster well enough alone. He has expressed his disinterest in discussing matters civilly, opting instead to spontaneously condemn that which he feels counters his "essential doctrine." He is sure of himself and there is obviously no changing that. Perhaps it is best not to converse directly with him, but to continue to patiently point out where his science (=theology?) is wrong to those in the audience who do not know any better. He hates being spoken of in the 3rd person, but I suspect he brings it upon himself.

 

[Mallon]

And by the way, a few of us TEs really do need to get out of the habit of posting in the creationist subforum. I understand the insatiable need of correcting misinformation, but I also understand the frustration on the part of many of the YECs. They feel they are part of a dying breed, intent on defending the literal meaning of the Bible down to the very last verse. You're only playing to their cause by persecuting them even more.

 

[shernren]

I was having a think out in the courtyard tonight (after some activities in the common room) about the whole affair with MK, from that thread which got locked down (and before) to the thread which I've backed out of. I'll be honest: it is difficult to sit and be silent, to stand by what I've said, letting my "no more" be no more. And I do not believe that the reason behind it is entirely healthy, though certainly much of it must be.

I am, of course, concerned about the lurkers, and trying hard to disentangle my personal annoyance with MK from it. But even in my concern for the lurkers I may have gone too far. I was reminded of the passage in the Gospels where Jesus chides those who worry: "Who of you, by worrying, can add one cubit to his span?" (Verily, those whose worry takes them to the plastic surgeon.) I'm convinced that I've done my utmost best on those two threads. And can I, by worrying, add a single bit of credibility to any of my arguments in the mind of a lurker? Certainly not.

 

[Servant222]

At the risk of providing a distraction from the topic at hand, could I just repeat one comment of yours that I am sure not only caught the attention of the engaged posters on the thread, but also the lurkers:

Dawkins, a militant atheist, argues from evolutionary bases that religion is ridiculous. Hence all evolutionists are really atheists.

sounds an awful lot like

Hovind, a militant creationist, argues from the Bible that paying taxes is ridiculous. Hence all creationists are really criminals.

extrapolating from a flawed sample to taint the whole, with a good dose of inappropriately ethicizing scientific conclusions. A good number of evolutionists, like Ken Miller and Francis Collins, are firm theists.

In the end, it boils down to who you trust more:

someone who knows God claiming that evolution does not exclude God,
or someone who does not know God claiming that evolution excludes God. [my bold]

Funny that the creationists who think atheists have a completely mistaken assessment of Christianity will agree so vehemently with them on this one point.

Great post!!

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

It doesn't help when people completely ignore other's posts, and then accuse them of believing what they just unilaterally denied.

Ahem, yes, I do recall that somewhere.

 

[Xaero]

I've also got tired of repeating the same old arguments again and again without getting refuted by any young earther.


I recommend you all that it's sometimes good to take a break of this whole forum and realize that everything is in god's hand.

I'll pray for this forum that god gives us the strength and patience to keep up the discussions .. Amen

 

[shernren]

I've also got tired of repeating the same old arguments again and again without getting refuted by any young earther.


I recommend you all that it's sometimes good to take a break of this whole forum and realize that everything is in god's hand.

I'll pray for this forum that god gives us the strength and patience to keep up the discussions .. Amen

If you've been around long enough you'd know that I normally take a 40-day Internet fast starting in mid-July, coinciding with my country's annual 40-day fast and pray organized by the NECF. I never really appreciated it for the past two years, but this year I can't wait for July. Capon once said that we have so much problem with diet because we do not eat historically: for when we know the significance of our food, we can feast looking forward to fasts and fast looking forward to feasts. This year more than any I see the wisdom in my Internet fast.

 

[Melethiel]

So now we're the evil TEs who only criticize and never stand up for the YECs, no matter how nice they are. [/rant]

I haven't noticed an unusual amount of harshness lately. Did I miss something?

 

[Jase]

So now we're the evil TEs who only criticize and never stand up for the YECs, no matter how nice they are. [/rant]

I haven't noticed an unusual amount of harshness lately. Did I miss something?

Well, the YEC's see us as heretics spreading Satan's most successful evil plan known as the Theory of Evolution. We don't know God, only science... It's amazing how deluded one can get into believing this about other Christians.

From floodnut in Creationism forum:

They absolutely do not care about Scripture. They never discuss scripture. When they ask for "Evidence" they are not asking for Scriptural Evidence, but they want NATURAL evidence. Imagine that. What ever scripture supports or insists on creatio ex nihilo, creation out of nothing, they dispense with as "prescientific," or allegorical, etc. Also, they do not believe that the Text has a particular meaning, but that it is a matter of personal preference and multiple choice.
They do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God.

 

[Mallon]

I haven't noticed an unusual amount of harshness lately. Did I miss something?

There's one or two new posters here that I think could be phrasing themselves a little less harshly.

Well, the YEC's see us as heretics spreading Satan's most successful evil plan known as the Theory of Evolution. We don't know God, only science... It's amazing how deluded one can get into believing this about other Christians.

From floodnut in Creationism forum:

They absolutely do not care about Scripture. They never discuss scripture. When they ask for "Evidence" they are not asking for Scriptural Evidence, but they want NATURAL evidence. Imagine that. What ever scripture supports or insists on creatio ex nihilo, creation out of nothing, they dispense with as "prescientific," or allegorical, etc. Also, they do not believe that the Text has a particular meaning, but that it is a matter of personal preference and multiple choice.
They do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God.

Show Floodnut your love anyway. He doesn't interact with people outside the comfort of the anti-evolution subforum much, so I don't think he understands the TE position very well. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
It is frustrating being told that we don't care about Scripture, though, and understand only science. Science wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't abused in an attempt to defend a literal reading of Genesis. I think people like vossler understand that. Once we overcome that hurdle, we can (and do) have fruitful discussions about the meaning of Scipture.

 

[Mallon]

Just bumping this thread back up since I feel there are certain newcomers to these boards that might invoke many of the same feelings shern was having in the OP. This might be a better place to vent than in the OT forum.

 

[crawfish]

I feel my cynical wit is getting the best of me with one particular poster. I'm not sure why I keep responding to him. His argument doesn't change, and he wouldn't recognize facts if they slapped him in the face. And I get tired of his insinuations.

However, I am trying to remember that I answer to God and not to him, and to stay patient. I'll do my best.

 

[shernren]

Not just newcomers.