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shernren

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Dawkins, a militant atheist, argues from evolutionary bases that religion is ridiculous. Hence all evolutionists are really atheists.

sounds an awful lot like

Hovind, a militant creationist, argues from the Bible that paying taxes is ridiculous. Hence all creationists are really criminals.

extrapolating from a flawed sample to taint the whole, with a good dose of inappropriately ethicizing scientific conclusions. A good number of evolutionists, like Ken Miller and Francis Collins, are firm theists.

In the end, it boils down to who you trust more:

someone who knows God claiming that evolution does not exclude God,
or someone who does not know God claiming that evolution excludes God.

Funny that the creationists who think atheists have a completely mistaken assessment of Christianity will agree so vehemently with them on this one point.
 
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mark kennedy

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Heritable change due to mutation and natural selection that leads to speciation and biodiversity. Common ancestry as an explaination to what we find in the independent lines of evidence of the fossil record and genetics.

I was under the impression that it was the change of alleles in populations over time. Not all change comes as a result of mutation, mutations are usually transcript errors anyway. Also, natural selection isn't leading to adaptive changes as much as everyone thinks, the potential for adatpations lies cross over of unmutated gene pools. Common ancestor has nothing to do with it, if anything natural history is an afterthought in biology.

Are you suggesting that speciation, heritable change, and genetic and physical comparison or organisms based on common ancestry is not central to higher biology studies? That is laughable. What book did you use in Biology 101 and where did you take it? If find it hard to believe that evolution or the concepts of speciation and common descent didn't come up. Can you share?

I'm not suggesing it, I'm telling you I know it for a fact. Common ancestry is an afterthought, in fact its an aberation. When I was studying this it the focus was on how living systems work, we spent a week on ATP. It has become increasingly obvious that evolutionary biology has absolutely nothing to do with life science. Evolution itself is a secularists attempt to pontificate about prehistoric and primordial history.

What causes gravity?

Mass.

Mathematical formulas are not the basis of theories.

Natural selection can be reducted to a ratio, Mendel reduced inheritable traits to a ratio.

Mechanisms and physical interations are. You seem to be lacking in a basic understanding of what a good scientific theory addresses and what the theory of relativity, gravity, and light address. They certainly address more than math - just like evolution.

You can't state evolution as a theory so you tell me I lack a fundamental understanding which is typical. Mendel had a theory that it came down to what he called the elementum. It was a theory because no one would be able to see the chromosomes for another 50 years. The fact is that there is no theory of evolution just an assumption of a single common ancestor. That is the fundamental a priori assumption that everyone thinks you should be making. If you don't then it is assumed that you don't understand the first thing about it. That's not science, that's supposition.

The theory of evolution uses observable mechanisms to explain the independent lines of evidene for common ancestry. Life in the past was much different than life today. They theory of evolution explains why this is using observable mechanisms and falsifiable claims. You know - science.[/quote]

biblueyes.gif


Genes and alleles
A human egg cell and a human sperm cell both contain 23 single chromosomes. Fertilisation brings these two sets of single chromosomes together to make 23 pairs of chromosomes in the embryo.

Each of these pairs of chromosomes contains genes inherited from the father and genes inherited from the mother, and these genes are in pairs, both coding for the same characteristic - so you have two genes controlling eye colour, for example. These different forms of the same gene are called alleles (pronounced al-eel). The gene for eye colour has an allele for blue eye colour and an allele for brown eye colour.

If both the alleles inherited by the zygote for a particular characteristic are the same they are called homozygous). If they are different from each other they are called heterozygous. An individual who has homozygous alleles for a particular characteristic is described as purebred. In addition, alleles may be either dominant or recessive. A dominant allele always shows. A recessive allele only shows when it is on its own (because it's on a sex chromosome) or when both the alleles are the same (homozygous).Biology, variation and inheritance

Alleles Wikipedia

You are not describing evolution as it is defined in biology, evolution is the change of alleles in populations over time and it doesn't get anymore basic then that. You don't need this metaphysical a priori assumption of a single common ancestor, it has been imposed on science not deduced from it.



I can't really make much sense of this paragraph. The science of evolution is there for everybody to see in reams and reams of peer reviewed research. I accept that research just like I accept relativity research or medical research. The theology of my worldview is based on the scriptures, particularly the New Testament - I am after all Christian.

There is no science evolution, at least not in the kind we are talking about. Evolution has become such a mystical term riddled with assumption and bias it's become virtually meaningless. If biology is taught without evolution is does not change a thing, there are still adpatation and the genetic mechanisms are still a challenge for even the most knowledgeable person.

Christianity is based almost exclusivly on redemptive history and God's interaction in human affairs, literally from the beginning to a predictable end. Christians believing the God created the world in 6 days should not come as a big supprise to anyone, that's what the Scriptures say.

I just accept one more mainstream scientific theory than you do based on the evidence and the study I have done. I'm in good company with a great many Christians who teach it, accept it, use it in their research, and yet somehow live fantastic and faithful lives as Christians - just like those that accept relativity.

What is lost in all of this is both the import from our sacred theology as well as a comprehensive understanding of the life sciences. Here's a link to a neutral site, basic stuff but it is pure undiluted genetics. I don't think anyone will argue that it is not genuine life science. The odd thing is notto, evolution is not mentioned anywhere in these pages:

Genome Science Images


01-0085sm.jpg


I have no problem with Biology as life science, it's this red in tooth and claw monstrocity they keep calling a theory that I consider a pagan mythology.
 
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stumpjumper

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Just popping in...

There was actually a very good well written negative review of Dawkin's book in, of all places, Harpers.

It's called Hysterical Scientism and shows the flaws in Dawkins logic: http://www.harpers.org/MostRecentCover.html
 
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mark kennedy

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Dawkins, a militant atheist, argues from evolutionary bases that religion is ridiculous. Hence all evolutionists are really atheists.

sounds an awful lot like

Hovind, a militant creationist, argues from the Bible that paying taxes is ridiculous. Hence all creationists are really criminals.

I don't care for either one of those guys and I have read a couple of Dawkins books. Frankly, he is a typical egghead, a lot of esoteric verbage that turns an otherwise fascinating topic into a back up septic system. Darwinisn is an aberation, the life sciences simply don't need it. As far as Hovinid I don't know what to tell you about that guy, I never paid any attention to him to tell you the truth.

extrapolating from a flawed sample to taint the whole, with a good dose of inappropriately ethicizing scientific conclusions. A good number of evolutionists, like Ken Miller and Francis Collins, are firm theists.

I'm aware of that but when it comes to genetics your pretty much on neutral ground. Evolution has come to be far more then a process in biological systems, it's become a proving ground for nillistiic philosophies of history.

In the end, it boils down to who you trust more:

someone who knows God claiming that evolution does not exclude God,
or someone who does not know God claiming that evolution excludes God.

Funny that the creationists who think atheists have a completely mistaken assessment of Christianity will agree so vehemently with them on this one point.

I disagree with their ideas about what evolution is in the life sciences. When it comes to Christianity I don't care what they think about God or the Bible at all, apart from the Holy Spirit you can't really understand that at all.
 
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shernren

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I don't care for either one of those guys and I have read a couple of Dawkins books. Frankly, he is a typical egghead, a lot of esoteric verbage that turns an otherwise fascinating topic into a back up septic system. Darwinisn is an aberation, the life sciences simply don't need it. As far as Hovinid I don't know what to tell you about that guy, I never paid any attention to him to tell you the truth.

That's just it, Hovind is not a fair representative of creationism and Hovind's tax fraud isn't logically related to Hovind's lousy science. Therefore using Hovind to bash creationism is an underhanded and ineffective tactic.

But for the same reasons (I don't think Dawkins is a fair representative of evolutionism in general, and Dawkins' atheism is wrongly related to his evolutionism) using Dawkins to bash TEs is just as underhanded and ineffective.
 
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notto

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What is lost in all of this is both the import from our sacred theology as well as a comprehensive understanding of the life sciences. Here's a link to a neutral site, basic stuff but it is pure undiluted genetics. I don't think anyone will argue that it is not genuine life science. The odd thing is notto, evolution is not mentioned anywhere in these pages:

And it doesn't explain the diversity of life on this planet or the evidence we find in our genes and the fossil record.

It doesn't explain the evidence that they theory of evolution does. Pure undiluted genetics does not equate to a well balanced biology curriculum. Just ask the biologists and geneticists, they will tell you that.ic

Pure undiluted genetics doesn't explain why life in the past was much different than life today.

In order to understand life on this planet and its history, you need to understand evolution and common descent.

I noticed that you didn't mention the biology book you were using or where you took the class that said nothing about evolution or common descent. Can you share where this was?
 
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JohnR7

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What is really cool about these Darwinian big mouths is that they are so profoundly wrong about things.
Perhaps that is the point. They are not tricking or fooling anyone. People know that Dawkins does not represent the truth, so he is of no danger to anyone.

I think it is the people who get in God's way or are a bad influence on others that need to be worried. God does not allow anyone or anything to hinder His word and the work that He wants to do in peoples lives.
 
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random_guy

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Perhaps that is the point. They are not tricking or fooling anyone. People know that Dawkins does not represent the truth, so he is of no danger to anyone.

I think it is the people who get in God's way or are a bad influence on others that need to be worried. God does not allow anyone or anything to hinder His word and the work that He wants to do in peoples lives.

Do you also mean people who say you must accept Young Earth or Creationism and not evolution (and science in general)? People who hinder attempts of salvation by creating a false dictonomy that accept evolution is the same as accepting lies and false beliefs, and that evolutionary research is driven by Satanic forces, as some Creationists say? Do these people need to be worried, or do you only mean people that you disagree with?
 
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mark kennedy

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That's just it, Hovind is not a fair representative of creationism and Hovind's tax fraud isn't logically related to Hovind's lousy science. Therefore using Hovind to bash creationism is an underhanded and ineffective tactic.

As is usually the case, I didn't start in on TEs they started in on creationism. I know the difference between evolution as science, evolution as natural history and evolution as metaphysics. I know the difference between TE and Darwinism, just like I know the difference between Intelligent Design and Structuralism. This thread did not strike me as being about tactics, it sounds like the typical romp through all the things that are wrong with creationism.

But for the same reasons (I don't think Dawkins is a fair representative of evolutionism in general, and Dawkins' atheism is wrongly related to his evolutionism) using Dawkins to bash TEs is just as underhanded and ineffective.

I wasn't talking to you originally, someone told me I had turned into Dawkins and I reacted accordingly. My counterpoint was that TE is indiscernable from mainstream evolutionary ideas. I am pretty dumbfounded that professing Christians can't see the logic that leads one to conclude the Genesis is a true and accurate account of God's works in early human history.

I honestly don't know what you guys think the Old Testament is supposed to be. Pithy maxiums, flowery poetic prose, wild flights of myth and fantasy...I just don't know. I'll tell you what it is to me, it's redemptive history and if you don't get that about creationists then you really have no buisness trying to correct them.
 
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Mallon

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As is usually the case, I didn't start in on TEs they started in on creationism.
That may be the case for this particular thread (maybe), but the same is not true of the academic world. It's the creationists who are raising cain in academia; trying to make issues out of non-issues and drawing lines where there are none.
My counterpoint was that TE is indiscernable from mainstream evolutionary ideas.
It certainly is, given that we all subscribe to science. With one important exception, though: TEs see God at work behind it all. We understand the limits of science and the Bible. On this issue, creationists and atheists seem to be more alike, insisting that science has no limits, being able to prove or disprove Scripture (depending on who you're listening to).

I thought you said you knew the difference between TE and Darwinism.
I am pretty dumbfounded that professing Christians can't see the logic that leads one to conclude the Genesis is a true and accurate account of God's works in early human history.
Luther said the same of a heliocentric solar system. What do you have to say to that? Luther would have thought of you as a heretic! What makes you any different from a TE in that regards?
I honestly don't know what you guys think the Old Testament is supposed to be. Pithy maxiums, flowery poetic prose, wild flights of myth and fantasy...I just don't know.
It's God's revelation to His created people, spoken in the historical context and through the finite understanding of its writers.
I'll tell you what it is to me, it's redemptive history and if you don't get that about creationists then you really have no buisness trying to correct them.
I think we all get that. But when creationists overstep the boundaries of science in an attempt to promote such a view, that's when they get put in their place.
 
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theFijian

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I honestly don't know what you guys think the Old Testament is supposed to be. Pithy maxiums, flowery poetic prose, wild flights of myth and fantasy...I just don't know. I'll tell you what it is to me, it's redemptive history and if you don't get that about creationists then you really have no buisness trying to correct them.

Personally I rest much easier knowing that you don't know, nor do you care to know what TEs believe. I know i'd be wasting my energy trying to explain my position on the OT to you so carry on with your disdain for you fellow believers if you want to continue looking ungracious.
 
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shernren

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I wasn't talking to you originally, someone told me I had turned into Dawkins and I reacted accordingly. My counterpoint was that TE is indiscernable from mainstream evolutionary ideas. I am pretty dumbfounded that professing Christians can't see the logic that leads one to conclude the Genesis is a true and accurate account of God's works in early human history.

Gee, TE is indiscernible from mainstream evolutionary ideas. Why is that surprising? Theistic gravity is indiscernible from mainstream gravity, theistic meteorology is indiscernible from mainstream meteorology, et cetera ad infinitum ad nauseam.

In case you haven't noticed, we share the same physical reality with everything else in creation. I don't see why I should be ashamed that my physical observations of the universe concord exactly with others' physical observations of the universe.

I honestly don't know what you guys think the Old Testament is supposed to be. Pithy maxiums, flowery poetic prose, wild flights of myth and fantasy...I just don't know. I'll tell you what it is to me, it's redemptive history and if you don't get that about creationists then you really have no buisness trying to correct them.

But of course Genesis describes historical events. It just isn't a historical description of these events. I can describe an event any way I want: give you a boring factual history lesson, write a novel with embellishments, write a poem, make a play, construct a parable, do a mime, whatever. In each and every case I describe the same event. I just describe it in different ways.

Genesis 1 describes the creation of the universe. Does it describe this historically, of course not. But it is a description packed with spiritual truth and it would have been perfectly suited for the Jews it was originally written to, and it's just our misfortune to have been born into a completely different culture and cosmogony a few millenia down the line.

I say the Bible is all redemptive history - in the form of pithy maxims, flowery poetic prose, wild flights of fantasy, and the occasional plain old historical description especially whenever the Hero comes onstage.
 
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mark kennedy

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That may be the case for this particular thread (maybe), but the same is not true of the academic world. It's the creationists who are raising cain in academia; trying to make issues out of non-issues and drawing lines where there are none.

In case you haven't noticed creationism has not been inbeded in mainstream academia for well over 100 years. As matter of fact Christianity and the Bible has not been. Creationism is primarily among ordinary average folks who take the Bible as gospel rather then academia. It wouldn't bother me if the only part of the Bible that was never taken literally was Genesis 1 or 1-6 for that matter. The fact is that the Bible as history is never an option in mainstream academia because of the supernatural events described, period.

It certainly is, given that we all subscribe to science. With one important exception, though: TEs see God at work behind it all. We understand the limits of science and the Bible. On this issue, creationists and atheists seem to be more alike, insisting that science has no limits, being able to prove or disprove Scripture (depending on who you're listening to).

For one thing theology is a science, a science based on direct revelation is prefered with regrads to history. I would rather have an eyewittness then a forensics reconstruction. I would rather have the weapon then a motive. I would rather have eyewittness accounts to historical events from people who were there then the academic's peicemeal reconstruction.

I thought you said you knew the difference between TE and Darwinism.

I do, Darwinians would never have the slightest regard for someone who accepted a miracle. TE on the other hand is simply ambiquise and at times downright open to the idea.

Luther said the same of a heliocentric solar system. What do you have to say to that? Luther would have thought of you as a heretic! What makes you any different from a TE in that regards?

Luther would have called me a fool if I regarded the eyes of reason as superiour to those of faith. Luther didn't go around calling others heretics, he was actually a Catholic apologist defending the practice of indulgences. In the process he ran into the Pauline concept of justification by faith and could not escape it even before an emperor who wanted his head for it.

Something else that people either forgot or don't want to talk about. If it had not been for Luther you never would have heard of Galileo, the Protestant Reformation was what made the Scientific Revolution possible.


It's God's revelation to His created people, spoken in the historical context and through the finite understanding of its writers.

That would seem to be the theological and literary feature of Genesis, the historical context is almost entirely ignored even amoung fundamentalists. Most likely Moses write Genesis at the foot of Sinai or sometime in that proximity. The knowledge of the writers isn't really that important if it's a direct revelation, a 'thus sayth the Lord' kind of thing. What you really have to wrap your mind around is whether Moses got the geneologies from God or oral traditions. By the way, Genesis 1 is obviously a 'thus sayth the Lord', the literary and theological construction demand it.

I think we all get that. But when creationists overstep the boundaries of science in an attempt to promote such a view, that's when they get put in their place.

So you guys are here as apologists for natural science, keeping the unrulely creationists in line? I really spend very little time on the theological aspects of TE because I can't find any. Time and time again I have asked about historical accounts, redemptive history and the Gospel in time and space. Time and time again I get ambiquity.

Creationism does not procede from a literal interprutation of Genesis 1, there is really not enough there for that. Creationism is taking the Scriptures as redemptive history to it's logical conclusion, God is not only present in time and space but in control from beginning to end.

It's not the creationists who are bashing TEs so don't pretend that we are the instigators. Creationists can't make a post, even in the creationism forum without TEs challenging them on it. You guys are not just here as apologists for your theological and scientific worldview. You guys are activly evangelizing fundamentalists and evangelicals to naturalistic philosophy.
 
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mark kennedy

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Gee, TE is indiscernible from mainstream evolutionary ideas. Why is that surprising? Theistic gravity is indiscernible from mainstream gravity, theistic meteorology is indiscernible from mainstream meteorology, et cetera ad infinitum ad nauseam.

You are no different in that you consider naturalistic assumptions to be absolute and argue venomously against Biblical literalism. I don't know what kind of a literary device you are contriving with phrases like 'theistic gravity' or what is so nauseating about it. Intelligent design would seem to be hanging around academia and no worse for wear I might add. After 150 years of trying to purge God from everyones thinking politically, socially and morally theistic reasoning still emerges in scientific circles of all places. This is nothing new and it's a point of view that is not going anywhere soon:

I do not think it explicable by mere natural causes but am forced to ascribe it to ye counsel and contrivance of a voluntary agent.' A month later he wrote to Bentley again: 'Gravity may put ye planets into motion but without ye divine power it could never put them into such a Circulating motion as they have about ye Sun, and therefore, for this as well as other reasons, I am compelled to ascribe ye frame of this Systeme to an intelligent Agent.' If, for example, the earth revolved on its axis at only one hundred miles per hour instead of one thousand miles per hour, night would ten times longer and the world would be too cold to sustain life; during the long day, the heat would shrivel all the vegetation. The Being which had contrived all this so perfectly had to be a supremely intelligent Mechanick.​

http://www.lehigh.edu/~amsp/2005/05/isaac-newton-and-intelligent-design.html

That's a quote from Principia, you do know what Principia was right?

I went to a bookstore looking for Darwin's Blackbox but couldn't seem to find it in the religious or philosphy sections. I thought I would have to order it but the gal behind the counter said they had it. It took her a minute to find where it was kept, finally she led me to the book and handed it to me. What section is this I asked her. She pointed to the sign above the shelves, it read biology.

I chuckled about that all the way home, of course it was in the biology section, why would I have never thought to look there?

I say the Bible is all redemptive history - in the form of pithy maxims, flowery poetic prose, wild flights of fantasy, and the occasional plain old historical description especially whenever the Hero comes onstage.

So the Exodus, Danial in Babylon, Esther in Persia, Paul before Agrippa...all just hyperbole and allusions to abstractions rather then events in history right?

Let me tell you something about Christianity you might not think is important, the Gospel is history or it's a lie. I didn't draw that conclusion on my own, the Scriptures are clear as day that there is no third alternative.
 
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shernren

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So the Exodus, Danial in Babylon, Esther in Persia, Paul before Agrippa...all just hyperbole and allusions to abstractions rather then events in history right?

Let me tell you something about Christianity you might not think is important, the Gospel is history or it's a lie. I didn't draw that conclusion on my own, the Scriptures are clear as day that there is no third alternative.

Which part of

I say the Bible is all redemptive history - in the form of pithy maxims, flowery poetic prose, wild flights of fantasy, and the occasional plain old historical description especially whenever the Hero comes onstage.

(emphasis added) is unclear?
 
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mark kennedy

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Which part of

I say the Bible is all redemptive history - in the form of pithy maxims, flowery poetic prose, wild flights of fantasy, and the occasional plain old historical description especially whenever the Hero comes onstage.

(emphasis added) is unclear?

The part where redemption actually involves God's activities in Time and Space, human history and reality.

An 'occasional hero' is your answer...and you really asked me which part is unclear...wow...I'm astonished beyond words.
 
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Mallon

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In case you haven't noticed creationism has not been inbeded in mainstream academia for well over 100 years. As matter of fact Christianity and the Bible has not been.
Disagree.
You're right when you say that creationism hasn't been taught in the science classroom for well over 100, and for very good reason. It's not science.
To say that "the Bible as history is never an option in mainstream academia" is false, however. The Bible has and continues to be scrutinized in the light of history within universities the world round. Heck, I just took a course called 'The Historical Jesus' only two years ago.
I don't doubt that you would rather the events of the Bible be swallowed whole without question, but that's not the nature of academia. We're a critical bunch.
For one thing theology is a science
No. It's not. Period.
TE on the other hand is simply ambiquise and at times downright open to the idea.
"Ambiquise"?
It might surprise you (though it shouldn't) that most TEs gladly accept miracles. Just not those that clearly contradict what can be observed in God's creation.
Luther would have called me a fool if I regarded the eyes of reason as superiour to those of faith.
Indeed. And creationists lay that same charge of foolishness against TEs today.
The knowledge of the writers isn't really that important if it's a direct revelation, a 'thus sayth the Lord' kind of thing.
Except the Bible doesn't claim in its entirety to be direct revelation. In fact, in some instances, it claims the exact opposite!
I really spend very little time on the theological aspects of TE because I can't find any. Time and time again I have asked about historical accounts, redemptive history and the Gospel in time and space. Time and time again I get ambiquity.
"Ambiquity"?
The theologically best-versed people on these boards are TEs. And I've seen them describe some beautiful, complete theologies. You may not get an answer you like, but you get clear answers nonetheless.
Creationism does not procede from a literal interprutation of Genesis 1, there is really not enough there for that.
Wow.
Creationism is taking the Scriptures as redemptive history to it's logical conclusion, God is not only present in time and space but in control from beginning to end.
There's a phrase that's almost as meaningless as "created kind." I'm speaking, of course, of the oft-used "logical conclusion". Creationists like to use this phrase a lot, saying, "If you take the Bible to its logical conclusion, we are meant to understand it as literal history." Or, "If you take evolution to its logical conclusion, there is no God."
I disagree with your logic. And I think it only tends to lead you to false dichotemies.
It's not the creationists who are bashing TEs so don't pretend that we are the instigators.
Unlike you, I'm not pointing fingers at one bunch any more than another. My point is that creationists are just as guilty of the things you pin on TEs. We're all guilty. Mia culpa. Feel free to cast the first stone.
 
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laptoppop

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It might surprise you (though it shouldn't) that most TEs gladly accept miracles. Just not those that clearly contradict what can be observed in God's creation.
Isn't that close to the definition of a miracle? I see miracles as being contrary to what we normally observe.

Sometimes miracles leave traces that can be looked at (Jesus turning water into wine - you could examine the wine) -- but you must be careful. If you just see the wine, you may want to think there was a grape sometime inthe past.
 
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